Yet another GMO thread, with POLL!

Jasoneakers · #21 12/28/12, 11:09 PM

There are several either bought and paid for corporate shills or people trying to justify really bad decisions. There are also people who are somewhat informed and see it as a gray area.

Its very clear that you can't argue with the shills. There is no amount of links or studies that you can possibly put in front of them. NO source is good enough. NO study is credible. NO person isn't lying when they talk bad about GMO. So therefore, why argue with them? If they aren't paid to type what they type then they sure as hell are so able to justify their bad actions that nothing I or anyone can say can convince them otherwise.

Ask them though when they spray their roundup ready fields do they take their kids in the field an hour after? Do they know about Anniston, AL or care? What proof would it take for them to understand? Why are these companies bribing politicians in other countries to get a foothold?

I guess for some of these farmers its like the guy at the auto factory. He knows that his company makes crappy cars but there's some expectation that he will buy one of those crapsters and pretend by god its the best one out there. I mean his job depends on it right?

J

gone-a-milkin · #22 12/28/12, 11:21 PM

Internet 101 is that you cannot change peoples minds no matter how furiously you type.
Most people wont even click on the links.

To me these debates are worth the time if they show even one person a different possible way of thinking.

I sure dont COUNT on it though.
And I really dont think anyone is getting paid to express their personal opinions on HT.
(If you are though: feel free to PM me the details, I could use another income stream).

CaliannG · #23 12/28/12, 11:26 PM

Humans are interesting creatures.

It is a proven, scientifically, that we humans, no matter how much we wish to think otherwise, make our decisions based upon emotion. None of us are excepted from that. We then use logic to rationalize and justify those decisions.

What makes a superior human is not raw intelligence, nor the ability to argue and debate that one's decision is right. What makes a superior human is being able to *understand* the point of view of someone who has made the opposite decision, and if one finds that they simply cannot agree with the opposing position, or if they find that the arguments presented are not enough to change their position, to at least agree that the opposing party does have reasons that are valid to THEM.

I do see too many people inferring, implying, or outright stating their belief that their opposition is stupid, ignorant, or neurotically guided by fear. Not only in most cases are these accusations highly untrue, but it also shows an arrogant assumption on the part of the person that not only what they believe is the Truth with a capital "T', but their Truth will remain the Truth throughout the future and future scientific discoveries.

Superior intelligence and knowledge can be mistaken, and idiotic, just like everyone else.

As a signature in my e-mails, I use a quote by Steven Brust:

"A stupid person can make only certain, limited types of errors; the mistakes open to a clever fellow are far broader. But to the one who knows how smart he is compared to everyone else, the possibilities for true idiocy are boundless."

anita_fc · #24 12/28/12, 11:35 PM

How do you find polls? I've never been able to find one.

Anita from Idaho
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
www.gndt.net/dan-ani

CaliannG · #25 12/28/12, 11:46 PM

Anita, when you click the "Start a new thread" button, the option to add a poll is at the bottom of the page where you type in the title of your thread and the body of your message. Check the box "Add Poll" and give the number of answers you want in your poll. (In this one, I asked for 8 options/answers) Then click "submit thread" and it will take you to a page to fill out your poll answers and give you other poll options, such as how long you want the poll to run. (This one will close in 5 days.)

rambler · #26 12/29/12, 12:48 AM

PP certainly has made _a_ point in these threads, probably not the one she thinks, but that's cool.

Everyone else seems to have an opinion or view or info they think is important, and its interesting to see what they have in mind. I can agree or disagree. I've looked at a few things differently.

In big ag farming, of which I'm a real tiny player, these topics get discussed in much deeper detail, much more research, facts, and personal stories from 100's of people come out, gmo has been a topic for 20 years, and a very important one.

I suppose non-farmers haven't been in on that, don't see that. They aren't aware of the comments, thoughts, and experience with these products.

Many of you have good questions, honest fears, good insight on the topic. I'd like to get to the point of discussing those things some day. Lot of farmers have similar thoughts.

But we get sidetracked by old, bad, illogical info. The myths, as one person said.

It's kinda like a diesel mechanic and a aborigine trying to have a conversation about motor vehicles..... Sure they pollute, people get killed by them, they make noise. Lots of room for improvement. But the ship kinda sailed, we are going to have mass transit in this world, and cars are going to be a part of it.

How do we make them safer, quieter, less pollution? We've been working on that for 100 years.

We're going to have cars, the discussion is how do we power them, how do we make them safer.

The aborigine might freak out and be horrified by the first car he sees, and just think its pure death to everyone.....

Going to be hard to have that conversation.

But someday, someday the fears will ease, understanding will seep in, and we can move forward with a real discussion.

And we can make progress on keeping sidewalks along with roads, and on making both of them safer, and co-exist better with each other.

Guess there will always be a few that want to drive unregulated oil burners, and a few that are so scared of a car they never get in one, but most folks will be able to discuss cars with a pretty good understanding of what a car is. We'll just ignore the 2 extremes.

I look forward to that day.

Paul

tyusclan · #27 12/29/12, 06:49 AM

It's kinda ridiculous to lump all GMOs into one category.

Some of the modifications can actually be beneficial, some are benign, and some (like the terminator gene) could be (we don't know for sure) harmful in the long run.

I grew up in a big farming family, and I tend to like the old, traditional methods of farming. I'm not a particular fan of GMOs, but a LOT of the 'information' passed around wholesale on the internet is complete nonsense. The vast majority of it is a repeat from something someone read on someone else's blog or on a forum sight.

Would I prefer that farmers still farmed without GMOs? Yes.

Are they the science fiction nightmare some are trying to make them out to be? No.

tyusclan · #28 12/29/12, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickenista

And I really, really hate the patenting of living things and the steamrolling over farmers that have their organic, non-GMO crops ruined.
It takes away our choice to grow what we choose to grow.
Pollen travels, man.

If anyone is intending to grow open-pollinated crops to save seed, then they need to make sure that their crops are planted to keep them from cross-pollinating. Another organically grown, open-pollinated variety can ruin your crop just as easily as a GMO.

Suppose you and I are organic farmers who are neighbors. Reid's Yellow Dent and Trucker's Favorite are two open-pollinated (heirloom) varieties. I organically plant Reid's Yellow Dent on my property next to my fence. You plant Trucker's Favorite on your side of the fence. We both are organically growing an open-pollinated variety, but now we're both going to have hybrid seed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickenista

And if GMOs were no big deal, then why would the companies that make and use them fight so hard adn spend so many millions upon millions to keep food labels from listing them??
Aren't they proud of their products?

Mainly because people would be scared off of perfectly good products just because of all the nonsense spouted continuously on the internet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickenista

And if GMOs weren't bad (or pesticides or chemical fertilizers) then why do the big corporations only serve organic, certified GMO free foods??
See.. that last one is a kicker for me. They won't even eat it
themselves

Do you have a link or some other evidence to prove this?

haypoint · #29 12/29/12, 08:02 AM

Where is the choice:
I'd like an honest discussion on GMO with facts and no unfounded BS.

salmonslayer · #30 12/29/12, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Where is the choice:
I'd like an honest discussion on GMO with facts and no unfounded BS.

Good luck, if you dont buy into the anti-GMO arguments totally your branded a corporate shill, a troll, a refusenik to not believe some bloggers site about the evils of Monsanto, and then called a bully....a bit ironic but almost understandable given the primary membership here.

Its an interesting topic but your wasting your time. Studies supporting (to a certain degree) both sides of the argument exist but if you post the links to any study even remotely refuting some of the anti GMO positions they are branded as nothing but a bought and paid for conspiracy between Monsanto, Universities, the Government, National Academy of Science, etc.

Personally, I am not convinced GMOs are such a great thing though more from an environmental standpoint than a health issue but when you have people rehashing a long since debunked Green Peace article from 1999 about Monsanto Executives not eating GMOs your fighting a losing battle and you have to admit, even though Monsanto isnt the largest producer of GMO seed they have had one public relations disaster after another and have done nothing to improve their reputation so in some respects they brought this on themselves.

I see a common theme among many homesteader types that extends well beyond this forum and that is a complete distrust of anything to do with the government, corporations, the police, or anyone in authority (I share some of that myself). Everything is a conspiracy whether its vaccinations, GMOs, the banking system, the government, etc and the world is soon to collapse into chaos and anarchy and anyone who cant see that is either blind or obviously part of the conspiracy. You have also probably seen all of the threads about how so many are in financial difficulty, have failed family dynamics or personal relationships, and are almost paranoid about anyone coming onto their property no matter how benign the reason.

The above isnt meant to slam, it to point out that many of those factors are what drives people to start a homesteading lifestyle in the first place so if your actually a farmer in the traditional sense your going to be in the minority and seen with suspicion. Those are generalities to be sure and there are a lot of us who are more middle of the road and dont fit the above criteria (or fit it in only some areas) but a homesteading forum where lots of the members grew up with the Mother Earth News as a formative influence probably isnt going to garner much support for modern anything let alone genetically modified organisms.

The romantic notion of the back to the land movement is really just that, a romantic notion but its a notion some of us are happy living. I enjoy seeing both sides and I am interested in farming so I like to see the perspective of those members who farm or ranch and in fact my own version of homesteading has evolved more towards small scale farming...so please do not feel unwanted or that the farming viewpoint isnt valued by most of us. Just dont expect a membership that considers the use of sanitary clothes a viable alternative to toilet paper to rally behind manmade gentic manipulation of natures perfection.

tinknal · #31 12/29/12, 11:55 AM

I read an interesting study that looked into IQ and political affiliation. It turns out that among the most partisan in any party their political beliefs are ruled by a part of the brain unrelated to IQ and instead connected to emotion. I'm pretty sure that most of the folks connected to the GMO debate (except of course for those motivated by money) are using this same part of their brain in forming these opinions.

This makes it very hard for those of us who use reason to connect with either side on such an issue. People are so convinced of their own inherent rightness that they simply cannot comprehend facts that contradict their beliefs.

jwal10 · #32 12/29/12, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

PP certainly has made _a_ point in these threads, probably not the one she thinks, but that's cool.

Everyone else seems to have an opinion or view or info they think is important, and its interesting to see what they have in mind. I can agree or disagree. I've looked at a few things differently.

In big ag farming, of which I'm a real tiny player, these topics get discussed in much deeper detail, much more research, facts, and personal stories from 100's of people come out, gmo has been a topic for 20 years, and a very important one.

I suppose non-farmers haven't been in on that, don't see that. They aren't aware of the comments, thoughts, and experience with these products.

Many of you have good questions, honest fears, good insight on the topic. I'd like to get to the point of discussing those things some day. Lot of farmers have similar thoughts.

But we get sidetracked by old, bad, illogical info. The myths, as one person said.

It's kinda like a diesel mechanic and a aborigine trying to have a conversation about motor vehicles..... Sure they pollute, people get killed by them, they make noise. Lots of room for improvement. But the ship kinda sailed, we are going to have mass transit in this world, and cars are going to be a part of it.

How do we make them safer, quieter, less pollution? We've been working on that for 100 years.

We're going to have cars, the discussion is how do we power them, how do we make them safer.

The aborigine might freak out and be horrified by the first car he sees, and just think its pure death to everyone.....

Going to be hard to have that conversation.

But someday, someday the fears will ease, understanding will seep in, and we can move forward with a real discussion.

And we can make progress on keeping sidewalks along with roads, and on making both of them safer, and co-exist better with each other.

Guess there will always be a few that want to drive unregulated oil burners, and a few that are so scared of a car they never get in one, but most folks will be able to discuss cars with a pretty good understanding of what a car is. We'll just ignore the 2 extremes.

I look forward to that day.

Paul

Post of the day....James

Sparkie · #33 12/29/12, 08:29 PM

I happen to agree with PP that the pro gmo guys (most of them anyway) use bullying tactics. Along with constantly insulting our intelligence and insultingly portraying us as scared ignorant little technophobes.

So far it appears that they are the very vocal minority

Sparkie · #34 01/01/13, 08:31 AM

Just wanted to say it's interesting when we have some actual numbers that show how many more people here dislike gmo's than like them that the thread drops off the face of the earth....

farmerDale · #35 01/01/13, 09:27 AM

Well, Sparkie, you think using FACTS is a form of bullying. We don't want to "bully" you with facts, so we kinda disappear...

arabian knight · #36 01/01/13, 09:42 AM

Very true as America is helping feeding the world, and it is all thanks to companies like Monsanto.

Sparkie · #37 01/01/13, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmerDale

Well, Sparkie, you think using FACTS is a form of bullying. We don't want to "bully" you with facts, so we kinda disappear...

Actually you were one of the ones I was excluding from bullying when I said "most of them anyway." You seem to be a nice guy and have presented your point of view in a reasonable manner, have made no personal attacks that I know of and I can actually see things from your perspective. Not that I'd do things the same way, I couldn't make a living farming conventionally because I just don't like chemicals. We're easily able to grow our own food without them so no problems there.

LOL I don't think the others disappeared because they don't want to be bullies!

farmerDale · #38 01/01/13, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkie

Actually you were one of the ones I was excluding from bullying when I said "most of them anyway." You seem to be a nice guy and have presented your point of view in a reasonable manner, have made no personal attacks that I know of and I can actually see things from your perspective. Not that I'd do things the same way, I couldn't make a living farming conventionally because I just don't like chemicals. We're easily able to grow our own food without them so no problems there.

LOL I don't think the others disappeared because they don't want to be bullies!

Hey , you know what? I truly appreciate what you have said. It means something to me. I also know what you mean by growing your own food chemical free. Because that is what I do in our garden. It is easy in a small patch to be sustainable and kill weeds chemical free. I love gardening and raising butcher animals. But to farm and make a living, it is quite different. To keep weeds at bay, and soil fertility at optimal levels on 200 acres fields, organic is very tough.

Happy new year...

CaliannG · #39 01/01/13, 12:27 PM

This poll closes tomorrow and I'll post the final numbers.

PrettyPaisley · #40 01/01/13, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

Very true as America is helping feeding the world, and it is all thanks to companies like Monsanto.

And as more countries learn about GMO food like products they are beginning to refuse "food" from our America.

Hopefully people will begin to wake up. Seems even those in Alaska don't want their Frankenfish. Though I have little faith it will do any good (good being relative and NOT greasing the palms of the gov't or the company) - GMO salmon is on temporary hold as the gov't is looked at closely for "breach of ethics".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentin...salmon-fiasco/