To subsidize or not to subsidize: Dairy

When my kids (via the Federal Government) are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar spent by that Federal Government, it's time to end any and all subsidies. All the borrowing and printing of money does is push the debt to the next generation without fixing the problems.

Boom/Bust cycles are created by government and cheap printed money, not the market. See Say's Law.

Tracey, how much of that $7 price goes to support your health care system? I ask because I remember an article about the Canadian government complaining about its subjects crossing the border to buy large amounts of milk, cheese, butter, meat and gasoline to avoid the taxes.

__________________
Oak Harbor, Ohio

http://thelaubachermarriagechronicle.blogspot.com/

There is no tax on milk, cheese, butter, or meat.

And this isn't about health care, it's about the subsidization of your dairy industry, and the differences seen in price in an UNSUBSIDIZED industry.

__________________
Ignorance is the true enemy.

I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children.

www.newcenturyhomestead.com

Canada limits production as its way of supporting prices. I'm sure most US farmers would not want limits. But Canada gets a stable price and stable income for farmers. Canadians then have to pay more for these things. It is most noticable in Milk, milk products, chicken and turkey.

Living in a border town, common to see a Canadian shopper with a couple turkeys and 5 or 6 gallons of milk at the grocery check out.

US consumers get lower grocery prices and pay taxes that are used to stabilize farm products to allow farmers to earn a living.

Two methods to the same end.

Doesn't Canada have a quota system for dairy production, though? This limits the number of cows or milk that can be produced.

i say end all subsidies and let the market sort out what sells and what doesn't..

__________________
Brenda Groth
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

That is a quaint notion and I am sure applicable to many of us on this forum but as the last census showed us, fewer Americans than ever are living in rural areas (not sure about Canada) so that doesnt really help much.

There arent enough rural families left to have the kind of impact you envision.

__________________
www.salmonslayer-simplelife.blogspot.com

I believe, like someone said, to let the subs end after 5yrs. THEN let those 1000/4000 cow dairies who want out sell their cows to those wanting to supplement their OWN milk. Id imagine there would be a good mkt for them.
After that time limit, I would think that MANY small daries would be started, and they close to towns, and things would revert back to where they was when I lived on a dairy, Other than allowing hand milking., IF instead of a couple 100 cow daries as we have around the next town to me, we instead had 20, 10 cow daries, THEN, the businesses in that town would get MORE business because of there being MORE dairies. The people in that town could either buy milk from those darriries who would sell to a local creamery. THEN people in those towns could go to that creamery, and buy the milk as they needed it, say for a week. The grocery stores could keep milk for those wanting to get grocerys AND dairy prods at the same time. The hardware stores would benifit straightly. Appliance stores would benifit from there being more families out in the country, thereby creating a bigger pop around town if , as might be nothing changed pop wise IN TOWN. Implement dealers, AND car and pk dealers would benefit also. The equipment wouldnt be as big, BUT much more of it would be sold smaller. It wouldnt even out cause of the much increased number of farms in a givin area,

I cant see where
#1 Big farmers think they should be subisidezed so as to be able to continuing to be so, and smaller farmers cant

#2 I cant see where one segment of farming should be subsidized more so than others

#3 I cant see why farmers should be subsidized at all.

The farmers who cant produce on a larger scale (SMALL FARMERS), would either keep on doing as they are doing, or at least try top get some bigger.

I believe that american farmers,gardeners,homesteaders, would rise to the occasion IF there was a good viable mkt for their produce, making an inclination to produce more.

IF the agribusiness farms wernt subsidized, many would go out of business, and they could be bought and broken up into small farms, and a mans boys might be able to buy farms close to home, instead of they not having a chance, and either living 1/2 way across the country, or, out of state, like I do, OR moving into town and living off a job all their lives.

The only problem with ending subsidies all at once is. The big cities will not have a source of milk products and the areas with milk production will have low milk prices for a while until the dairies can survive and they will go out of business. The cost of starting up a dairy near large cities will be cost prohibitive even for a large company. And the small producer will not be able to afford the liability insurance to sell directly to the public.

Bob

This is a point lost in the romantic nostalgia for the way things were. My grandfather was one of 9 boys, everyone of those men farmed. Two generations later only TWO people farm. The other more than 75 descendants have chosen to live easier lives in cities and towns.

I was forced by divorce to lose my first farm and move into town. I fought like crazy, for several years in order to be able to move back onto a farm. That cost me my second divorce. The fact that alla my wives were city girls cost me my 3rd divorce. NO Way was I going to lose my farm in/on the off chance I might save my marriage.
Its easy to give up and move into town. Its ram hard to move back out if one decides they dont like it in town.

ALSO, What I stated above in the large posting is the same preaching that Jerry Balanger, and Lynn Miller preach. If they, with their publications, with their around the country travels believes it after over near a quarter century, and their sermons are thriveing, I got to believe it also, since I might have believed it longer than they did.

unfortunately, I've been hearing about ending farm subsidies in 5 years for about 25 years. Just like all the balanced budgets that pols promise in 10 years, that magical time when gov't actually does the right thing is always off in the distant future.

I skimmed through but it looks like I might be the only one who wants the subsidized milk to stay. Not everyone can raise cattle or goats. To let everything go at market value, small dairies would close and only the massive commercial dairies could stay in business. Then the monopoly could create even higher prices. Think about the other small companies that are helped as well... Close most small dairies and smaller grain growers won't have as much of an outlet and many will close shop. That means more money to feed our animals and even more dependance on commercialization. I know that I certainly do not want this place to become even more commercial than it already is... I want the option of obtaining local, chemical-free and humanely treated milk and meats. Basically, they'll either use our money to help keep prices low and small business open, or they will waste it elsewhere. No way are they going to drop taxes lower, they'll just spend it somewhere else that won't help the individuals, but those who are already driving around three or four vehicles that cost more than the average home here.

Living is not always easier or mor convient than living on a farm. Most people don't have a choice. How many small farmers are actually making a living? Not many in my area, most have to have off farm jobs to survive even with subsidies.


Bobg

Bc, to take your posting in segments
You say, Not everyone can raise cows or goats. Is that a reason to keep mega dairys, which are subsidized by everybody? Not everybody raises them now, and they get buy. I assume you think htat IF they mega dairys wernt subsidized, they would soon fold up, and NOBODY would take there place, and those not raising cows or goats would starve for milk.
I dont think so. EVERY homesteader, whether he actually does it OR NOT, has heard of the advice, LOOK FOR A NITCH MARKET. IF the mega dairys were gone, as you indicate with not everybody being able to produce milk, There would be a huge nitch mkt for milk products around every town and city. Local creamerys would spring up in every large town and EVERY city would have several.
You indicate that if the subsidys were taken away, only the small dairys would fold, that the big dairys would be able to exist. Thats absolutly wrong. The Major farms exist by the year #1, Because the local banks have plowed way too much money in loans to them to let them default., AND the GOV helps them with their money. SMALL FARMERS dont get any or very little in subsidies compared by unit to mega farmers. Acre for acre, animal for animal, The mega farms get more money from the gov than the small farmer.
U say, close the big dairys and small grain growers wouldnt have a mkt for their grain and elevators would fold. As ive already repeatably said, If the big dairys and mega farmes closed or folded, smaller dairys, and smaller farms would take up the slack. AND likely, they wouldnt be hiring illigals to help on the family farms either.

We do agree in your statement that we dont want the country and its farms to get more commercial than they already are.

I would feel joyious, if every so called homesteader, who lives out here on 3 to 10 acres would have a cow or goats cause they couldnt afford milk. That they would be buying square bales of hay for them since they didnt have tractors, OR tractors big enough to handle big bales. That they would again start to sprout barns to milk in, and keep their hay and grain and do milking in.

Chances are, IF they had to do the above, Theyed start to investigate planting gardens again, and then some of them canning even.

Instead, If theyve got an animal on those acreages other than a cat or dog, Its a dang horse that nobody rides.

Let's all hold hands and go over the fiscal cliff together.

No subsidies for anything, especially grains and college tuition.

__________________
Rich

I disagree. Smaller dairies have to pay more for feed. They cannot get the bulk discounts that the mega dairies can. You can even see this, whether you buy a 50lb bag of feed or a 100lb bag of feed. It costs everyone less to do things in larger numbers. So, free-market, that milk in the grocery store is going to be cheaper, while local, small dairies are charging more. Guess who's going to lose that battle? As far as loans, again, larger dairies create more profit, because of the bulk deals, better contracts with grocery stores, etc, etc, while local, small dairies are struggling. Dean and one other milk supply made quite the profit last year (I believe in the billions, but would have to look it up again to find the amount and the other mega milk supplier). They are not as reliant on loans as small dairies. Since you bring in banks... Think about it, when the small dairies are pushed out because they cannot compete with the dirt cheap milk of the mega milk producers, then they might file bankruptcy. Isn't mass bankruptcy supposed to be bad for our economy, bad for us little guys? Sure, that'll be "great" for those who think of themselves and have silver, gold and a full homestead that they've worked up for, however, I don't believe in this "every man for themselves" crap of "let the city slickers starve!", because they're doing just as much for this country and us as the individuals as we are for them.

ETA: You're assuming that the subsidies only help the mega farmer. You're wrong. Many small dairies would've been gone long ago if not for the subsidies, they are more affected by lack of subsidies than the mega farmers. Everything you've mentioned, you're thinking that only mega farms would collapse and somehow you think that the little farms would win out over them?

LOL
Subsidies are meant for the small farmer.
Since we are talking dairy, look at the MILC program. It is capped at 2,000,000 pounds of milk per year.
How do you propose they do that? By becoming bigger? How many small farms are you going to need to replace the 40,000 cow dairy in CA that folds up. Where do you propose to get the land and buildings to do it? Most small places are long gone. The investment in infrastructure needed to get them up to grade A status would be large. Land is worth a lot right now because you can grow corn and beans and make a killing. There is no guarantee that you would find land available for your small farms or be able to afford to buy your feed if land was unavailable.
Then you have to find people willing to become slaves to the cows. And while I'm sure there is a greater percentage here that might agree to it, overall very few folks are open to that kind of commitment.

__________________
Deja Moo; The feeling I've heard this bull before.

All we know for sure is that if the subsidies end, things will be different. None of us KNOW how it will be different. But what we do know is that in capitalism, if there is a demand for a product, the market will deliver the goods and the price will reflect true costs (over time).

Whether it is illegal drugs, ipods that no one truly needs, energy that everyone really needs, or milk, the market will deliver. The price might be higher or lower, depending on the number of suppliers who stay in the market.

In the 80s, the airline and stock market industries were deregulated. Those afraid of change and reducing gov't control predicted all sorts of disasters. And there was market turmoil. You can't go from gov't control to free markets without some pains in the market. Big old names went away, like TWA and E F Hutton. But many new companies were started and the rates went down significantly. Few people take a bus anymore because air travel is so much cheaper and faster. Stock transactions that cost me $300 in 1975 now cost me $6.95. Factoring in inflation, the price of stock commissions has declined by about 99% and my orders get done more accurately and faster.

Don't be afraid of change and free markets.