Watch dog advice

fellini123 · #21 05/11/04, 10:35 PM

. "But if an unsupervised child comes onto the property or an adult who should know that all dogs are not friendly, and both are uninvited and get bitten, where does the responsibility lay? Should the parents of the child take some responsibility? Should the UPS driver take some responsibility for not watching out for his own safety?
If the responsibility falls onto the property owner in all cases, then everyone who has written on this subject should take the time to tie up or fence their cats and chickens, since they can attack too.
You also better drain that stock tank or pond, or at least place a flotation device inside them, so that nobody can drown.
Do not forget any potholes in your yard (broken ankles), any sharp edges or protruding nails in your out buildings.
Have you checked the safety of your trees? Being crushed by a limb can ruin someone’s day"

As sad as it may seem in all the above cases the property owner IS responsible.
If your dog bites anyone, for any reason you are at fault and you face the concequenses. As far as open bodies of water, in many states it is required to fence in bodies of water such as these to ensure that children do not accidently fall in.
And as far as the others go, yes the property owner is responsible. And dont forget about steps. If someone comes onto your property and trips and falls on your steps you are again responsible.
As sad as it may seem, even if this person is coming on your property to steal from you and gets hurt, you are responsible.
Ain't America grand???
Alice in Virginia

Laura · #22 05/11/04, 10:55 PM

Whodunit, your dog's prey drive kicked in when the kid shrieked and bolted. This drive is stronger in some dogs than others. Your dog needs to know it was a bad call.

I have herding dogs so the prey drive is very strong. While I can guarantee no one will ever touch or get close to my kids, I do lock all but one dog up when the Wild Bunch plays in my yard and I tell that dog to go lay down. I don't bother locking them up if we have calm kids visiting.

My dogs allow my friends out of their vehicles, new aquaintences call first so I can put the dogs away and strangers sit in their car until I come out. NOBODY comes on my property without me knowing. UPS, the garbage collector and meter reader get along with the dogs, but they know NOT to get between the kids and dogs. My kids know to come to the porch if someone pulls in the driveway. My experience with dogs is they have teeth, they bite. My job is make sure any bite is a legal bite.

Don't hastily dismiss a fence. A cute garden fence around your yard is a nice visual boundary, not only for your dog, but for others who may wish to approach. Your dog may happily sit inside the fence content to watch your child play at the neighbor's, but if needed for protection, the dog will easily clear the fence and take charge.

Tracy in Idaho · #23 05/12/04, 12:36 AM

Our family has a one-bite rule on dogs -- one bite to a human and they are DEAD.

We don't do second chances, or sorry -- the dog must have been agitated, so it's no big deal. Biters get shot, period.

I think letting this dog roam loose is an accident waiting to happen. What if the neighbor kids are screaming and yelling in their own yard and she freaks and shoots over there?

Hope it's not a little kid's face or throat next time -- or worse yet, a DEAD child because your dog decides she's a little "nervous" --- all it takes is one tooth in the wrong spot

I think you're taking a heck of a chance.

JMO,

Tracy

mightybooboo · #24 05/12/04, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whodunit

Again, thanks for all the response. I am reading each and every one.

"What I am looking for are solutions with which we can live, specifically ones that fall in with our philosophy of protecting our family and property."

Put your dog and children behind a fence.

"Additionally, wild animals are a concern as well where we live. We have heard coyotes nearby and our wonderful neighbors once saw their daughter perilously close to a badger!"

Put your dog and children behind a fence.Supervise them AT ALL TIMES,its a scary world and thats just how it is nowadays,pretty much.

"As well as lawsuits, there is almost nothing anyone can do to avoid them these days."

Yes there is,put your dog behind a fence or restrain him.

"What is lacking is personal responsibility. Yes, if we invite someone onto the property and do not take some type of measures to ensure their safety, then I can see where we might be responsible. But if an unsupervised child comes onto the property or an adult who should know that all dogs are not friendly, and both are uninvited and get bitten, where does the responsibility lay?"

With the homeowner,thats the law!You are NOT immune to lawsuits for dog bites because a child came in your yard,not by any stretch,you are 100% responsible as far as I know,esp. with a known biter.(Calif. anyhow,FWIW,sue capital of the world it seems)

"If the responsibility falls onto the property owner in all cases,"

It is the responsibility of the homeowner in all cases.Every single one you've mentioned!

"You also better drain that stock tank or pond, or at least place a flotation device inside them, so that nobody can drown."

Called "An Attractive nuisance" by the law,you are responsible yet again.You are also responsible for your swimming pool.Same thing I think?

"Do not forget any potholes in your yard (broken ankles), any sharp edges or protruding nails in your out buildings."

Yet again you are responsible.Seeing a trend here?You cannot set out booby traps and land mines and think its visitor at your own risk,its not,esp. with children. Also a lawyer said getting someone to sign a paper they will accept all risks on your property and not sue is not valid.A homeowner CAN NOT change the law,thats kind of interesting I thought.

"Have you checked the safety of your trees? Being crushed by a limb can ruin someone’s day!"

Your responsibility still again.You are responsible for dead limbs on your property.

"Enough said. I think my point has been made.

"

It has,you need to learn the law and your responsibilty under it,and accept it.Just about everything that happens on your property injury wise,you are responsible for.Maybe a lawyer here would respond with the actual facts of law if we are wrong in our replies?And you are welcome for the replies,Im not being a contrarian,just trying to help.Sincerely,
BooBoo

mightybooboo · #25 05/12/04, 08:46 AM

"What I am looking for are solutions with which we can live, specifically ones that fall in with our philosophy of protecting our family and property. That is why keeping the dog tied up or fenced would not be a solution. The dog is there for self-protection, as are the other “items” we keep in hand."

You are using your dog as a freeroaming autonomous weapon,that is NOT ACCEPTABLE,Period.In most states you have unlimited liability for dog bites unless you can prove the dog was provoked.Walking onto your property would not meet that definition I would bet.And if he does it off,you really have problems.Not to mention leash laws in many areas.Your "Philosophy" is your land is your island,its not.Your "philosophy" violates the law!You are NOT ABOVE THE LAW,whether you like it or not,or whether it contrasts with your "phiosophy".Someone is going to poison your dog first chance they get if he is allowed to roam.Because you are violating their "philosophy" of being safe in their enviornment.The dog WILL roam,esp. when he hooks up with another dog(s),its the pack mentality.WOW! You are going to have some real problems.You would have them for sure if I were your neighbor,I would take the known aggressive,biting dog out if you wont be a responsible neighbor or dog owner.I would be FORCED to AS A RESPONSIBLE CITIZEN protecting the children,because you wont do it.(Your concern for YOUR children,and lack thereof for others' children ASTOUNDS ME!)Thats how I see it.And remember,you did ask,so Im telling you even if it isnt what you want to hear.
BooBoo

#26 05/12/04, 01:54 PM

Your dog is a menace to your new neighborhood. The idea that a lab is going to protect you from anything more then the mailman or playing children is absurd. They are not protection dogs and furthermore protection dogs must be properly trained. A dog that bites a child because the child is making noise and moving around is a "fear biter" and that dog will never stop a real threat. If it is scared into biting from a childs play it will never stop a couple of armed assailents. People that have aggressive dogs and let them run free under the excuse that they need to be free to fulfill some role of protection are just silly. If the dog is maintained in a fenced area it will not bite your neighbors. Then when the bogeyman comes to get you, your dog will be at home where it belongs. If you want "protection", get a house alarm and motion sensor lights. Then learn how to handle a firearm correctly. I don't know where you live but around here we would shoot your dog and then press charges and file suit against you. The kind of thinking that if a child gets bit by a dog it is their fault in this case is beyond my understanding. If the dog was running free, then it is YOUR FAULT. It is your dog and your responsibility to make sure it is a safe and steady animal. GOOD DOGS DON"T BITE PEOPLE. Weak people who live in fear of the world breed and own dogs with social and behavioral problems that attack without warning. Put your dog down and do not own another one, you are unfit to own a dog or any other animal if your "philosophy" towards protecting your family means endangering your neighborhood!!

Oilpatch197 · #27 05/12/04, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAC

Forgot to add that most courts would hold that people have a common courtesy right to go to your door or in your yard for say, emergency help, to ask for directions if they're lost, to deliver packages both expected and unexpected--say you're sick and someone sends you flowers, that sort of thing. That would be regardless of No Tresspassing/No Soliciting signs, by the way.

So, unless you have unlimited funds with which to fence your entire property, it's easier to keep the dog confined to a smaller area.

Insurance is an issue, but only for people with mortgages, I think. Homeowner insurance is not a requirement like car insurance.

but if you have you YARD FENCED IN with a LOCKED GATE, and a sign that says "go somwhere else" wouldn't that excuse common courtesy, or do you need RAZOR WIRE, A 6FT HIGH FENCE, AND "DANGER" SIGNS EVERYWHERE?

SOUNDS LIKE THE DOG NEEDS A MUZZLE.

#28 05/12/04, 02:06 PM

[QUOTE=fellini123]. "But if an unsupervised child comes onto the property or an adult who should know that all dogs are not friendly, and both are uninvited and get bitten, where does the responsibility lay? Should the parents of the child take some responsibility? Should the UPS driver take some responsibility for not watching out for his own safety?

Whoever is so afraid of this world as to need a dog that would attack the UPS man is a spineless coward. The only way the UPS man comes on your property is to deliver things that you have sent for!! Dogs are not supposed to run down and attack children or anyone else simply for being there. When you decide to bring a living creature into your home, one with teeth. It will be YOUR responsibility to the day it dies to prevent it from injuring others or being injured itself.

#29 05/12/04, 02:35 PM

"but if you have you YARD FENCED IN with a LOCKED GATE, and a sign that says "go somwhere else" wouldn't that excuse common courtesy, or do you need RAZOR WIRE, A 6FT HIGH FENCE, AND "DANGER" SIGNS EVERYWHERE?"

But that's just it, they don't want to fence the dog in at all, even in a small yard just around the house, from what it sounds like. And if you muzzle the dog 7/24, you've reduced the dog to an expensive alarm--a motion sensor could set off a dog recording much cheaper. And it is cruel to the poor dog.

Although, if someplace like in your above description was near most people (most places don't allow razor wire on residential fencing), they'd want to know why, even if it meant calling code enforcement or someone else to drop by--not to mention such a place nearby would lower property values for the entire neighborhood.

And as someone else brought out earlier, even when someone is clearly tresspassing with intent to commit a crime (as opposed to coming on the property to get help or ask questions of the neighbors before they move into a house nearby--legitimate business, sign or no), you can still be held accountable for injuries suffered by the miscreant. Sad but true.

#30 05/12/04, 02:41 PM

"but if you have you YARD FENCED IN with a LOCKED GATE, and a sign that says "go somwhere else" wouldn't that excuse common courtesy, or do you need RAZOR WIRE, A 6FT HIGH FENCE, AND "DANGER" SIGNS EVERYWHERE?"

But that's just it, they don't want to fence the dog in at all, even in a small yard just around the house, from what it sounds like. And if you muzzle the dog 7/24, you've reduced the dog to an expensive alarm--a motion sensor could set off a dog recording much cheaper. And it is cruel to the poor dog.

Although, if someplace like in your above description was near most people (most places don't allow razor wire on residential fencing), they'd want to know why, even if it meant calling code enforcement or someone else to drop by--not to mention such a place nearby would lower property values for the entire neighborhood.

And as someone else brought out earlier, even when someone is clearly tresspassing with intent to commit a crime (as opposed to coming on the property to get help or ask questions of the neighbors before they move into a house nearby--legitimate business, sign or no), you can still be held accountable for injuries suffered by the miscreant. Sad but true.

A dog is not an adequate substitute for parental supervision of children in any event.

#31 05/12/04, 02:42 PM

That one (two) above was actually me. Sorry.

januaries · #32 05/12/04, 05:00 PM

I have no remarks on the dog-issue, only remarks about the comments posted. Whodunit, I appreciate the fact that you haven't resorted to personal attacks on other posters. Most of the posters have offered honest, thoughtful advice. The problem is that dogs and children are akin to politics and religion: "Don't tell me how to feel or act regarding this issue!" Or, more viscerally, "Back off!" I'm sorry that it was implied that you are a spinless coward and a weak person who lives in fear. I don't think that was particularly helpful. You don't seem weak or cowardly to me--but then, I don't know you. (Nor do these other posters.) Anyway, I hope things work out for you and your dog and all the children. I'm sure you want the best for all involved. I hope you can sift through all these replies and find something to help you figure things out and make the right decision. Good luck!

whodunit · #33 05/12/04, 05:12 PM

Gee, I'm kind of new here. Is calling people "silly" and "a spineless coward" acceptable? I've been civil in all my exchanges, but can change if needed. Let me know.

bgak47 · #34 05/13/04, 10:04 AM

whodunit... please don't change your style, just try to ignore the rude comments. As far as watchdogs go... I think that they should be confined to a specific area. That means a fence that they can't get out of. I look at my dogs as more of a deterrent & an early warning system. I want them to bark, not bite. If aggressive action needs to be taken,I'll take it. I keep my dogs in the house when I'm gone, & let them out when I'm home. If anyone tries to break into the house while I'm gone, the dogs can either scare them off or bite them(or not,...I don't know if they would or not?). Most burgulars are reluctant about entering a home where several large dogs are barking at them.As for protecting property... again, you need to have a good fence. I don't think that any dog, no matter how well trained you think they might be, should be allowed to roam free. Dogs need to have limits & rules. In most ways, they are just hairy 3yr olds that can't speak. A drastic change of location & environment can upset them. I have a city home, where I spend most of my time because of work, & a country place that I go to on weekends & vacations. When we go to the country place I have to keep a close watch on the dogs because they get excited...like my grandchildren. Your Lab may not have gotten used to your new place yet. That could be the explanation for the aggressive behaviour. This incident sounds much more like a ''nip'' than any kind of ''attack''. I'd just give the dog more affection,more restriction in it's ability to roam, & more supervision around children.

#35 05/13/04, 10:45 AM

If dogs wander into our yard, we don't call the cops, or animal control, we reach for the gun.

We were real nice about it the first couple of times, until a pack of dogs (with collars) tore into the livestock. We called animal control and got a lecture about shoot first, look for the collar later. We've since adopted their advice - if a dog is roaming, shoot it. Our closest neighbor shot 6 last year, we already dispatched 2. All have had collars, but no tags.

I don't mind the UPS guy shoving stuff out the door of the truck instead of getting out and knocking on the door, we're useto it now. The fact that they're afraid of a little tail wagging 40lb happy dog is laughable!

It took just one time of our (former) dog chasing a kid on a bike and biting the rear tire - by the next weekend, she had a new home in a nice big cage at her sister's place. The last thing we wanted was a habitual biter, once is a warning - mistake - accident, twice they OWN you.