If you had to pick livestock to raise, very small scale

badlander · #61 10/15/12, 11:09 AM

I've really enjoyed reading this thread.

We have approximately 6 acres of pasture that is being allowed to stand right now in order for it to recover from over grazing. We have it mowed once a year for hay that we give away to whoever wants to mow it for us. As we work and commute 5 days a week, having live stock right now isn't feasible for us, but once we retire we are seriously considering taking on a few animals to mostly keep the thick timothy under control for us so we won't have to mow.

So far we are leaning towards either sheep or goats, maybe a few sheep AND a few goats, the latter mainly for the milk. I appreciate the tip about two goats being able to provide milk for two people.

I doubt if we would butcher, but we would sell off any excess stock to keep the number of animals grazing the 6 acres down to a manageable level that wouldn't cause over grazing again. Mainly I would have goats for the milk.

Two questions.

1) How do goats deal with canines? Taking into consideration that we would have to fence to protect sheep from our own dogs (probably add a llama or donkey as a guard animal). Will a guard animal deal with pets (dogs) that got into the pasture?

2) Which goats do you recommend as far as milk quality (taste) is concerned? We have never drank goat milk before and I have read that while some cannot tell the difference between it and cow milk, there are others who are saying that it is an acquired taste.

Mainly I, like the OP, am considering the future investment for our own use and not as a commercial venture although it would be nice to make a little extra on the sell off animals.

CaliannG · #62 10/15/12, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haven

Any reason no one has mentioned Boers or Boer x Kiko, etc. much, other than combining them with milkers?

Single purpose, mainly. For goat people, it is pretty well known that a dairy animal feeds the farm. That is true whether it is a dairy cow or a dairy goat. Milk has so MANY uses. Not only for he household in milk, butter, cream, cheese...even soap, but for the other animals. Calves, pigs, and chickens.

~smiles~ No one mentioned Angora and Cashmere goats either, and they are both dual-purpose breeds, meat and fiber. But honestly, there are not a lot of people out there that wish to mess with making their own textiles, and when it comes to meat, nothing beats a Boer.

But it is also that even in the meat industry, there are a lot of crosses of Boer over milker. The dairy breeds (with one exception) have a larger frame, and the Boer weight gain tends to breed true. A dairy goat produces a LOT of milk, which a Boer kid will use to put on meat. One of the problems Boer breeders have had is breeding does that produce enough milk for those weight gaining genes to express their potential.

You have small acreage, and you want the maximum amount of food that you can get out of it. Having dairy does (with the average dairy goat producing 120 gallons of milk per year) that you breed to a meaty Boer buck (at an average of 2 kids per year with a dressed weight of 50lbs, so 100lbs of meat per year, per doe, average) gives you the most food bang for your buck.

Now, short term, if you didn't want to breed any animals, and you JUST wanted meat for the table, and very little time in caring for those animal, then you should do pigs and broiler chickens. 2 months on the chickens, and 6 months on the pigs. But you will have to buy fresh stock every year.

Wendy · #63 10/15/12, 11:40 AM

Quote:

They happen to be the in thing right now.
That and many people who bought them would like to sell them at the price they originally bought them.
If you want to raise a beef cow or a milk cow it would be much better to get a real one and not a toy.

Feeding bigger is not better. You have to feed more to the bigger stock. We like the Dexter because one full grown butchered will give us as much meat as a half full size. We normally would buy a half a beef & then have to worry about finding someone for the other half. This way we don't have that problem. They are good tasting & we give ours only a handful of grain to keep them coming into the barn so they are easier to catch. Otherwise, strictly grass fed. The prices have come way down also. I didn't give much for my cows or my bull.

CaliannG · #64 10/15/12, 11:45 AM

badlander, it depends upon what kind of milk you drink NOW.

If what you buy from the store is skim, 1%, or 2%, yeah, goat milk is REALLY an acquired taste! You may not like it at all!

If what you buy from the grocery store is whole milk, then the difference won't seem like much to you. Goat milk will taste a bit richer, and a tiny bit sweeter than you are accustomed to.

6 months after you have been drinking goat milk, if you get store bought milk and try it, it will taste watery, antiseptic, and gross. Getting "accustomed" to milk does NOT work both ways. LOL

On guard animals: Do not get a dopnkey or a llama. Remember that they, too, are prey animals. Donkeys, especially, are smart. They will happily sacrifice your goats to a predator to save themselves, going so far as injuring a goat to make it an easier target. Male donkeys and Llamas have been known to kill goats. And no, a donkey or llama, even if you manage to luck out on a really good one that protects your goats, and doesn't hurt them, is not going to differentiate between your threatening dogs and the neighbor's threatening dogs. Nor between dogs and coyotes.

Get an LGD. They will bond with your herd and do their best to protect it. They will also, once introduced to your dogs, chase them away from your goats and sheep, without killing them.

On breeds: Quality has FAR more to do with your individual management than it has to do with breed, barring a couple of exceptions.

Nigerian Dwarfs are going to have MUCH higher butterfat than a standard-sized goat. Likewise, the Mini breeds (Stardards crossed with Nigerians) have a higher butterfat, on average. That said, I have an FF Alpine that currently has the richest milk in my herd, even beating out the Mini-Nubians.

But honestly? Whole milk is whole milk. There isn't a difference that *I* can tell between the milk of a well-cared-for and managed Nubian, and a well-cared-for and managed Alpine.

For the home producer, I would go with a goat whose personality and looks appeal to you. After all, it really doesn't matter to the home producer if it takes 2 gallons, or 2.2 gallons of milk to make 5lbs of cheese, right? Now, if you have a cheesemaking BUSINESS, those numbers count. For someone with only a few animals, personality, temperament, and looks are far more important. So go with a breed that appeals to you.

badlander · #65 10/15/12, 11:56 AM

Thanks Caliann.

We drink skimmed but have drank whole or two percent. I imagine it would take some getting used to but hey! It's there, it would be ours and we'd deal with it!

lakeportfarms · #66 10/15/12, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

They happen to be the in thing right now.
That and many people who bought them would like to sell them at the price they originally bought them.
If you want to raise a beef cow or a milk cow it would be much better to get a real one and not a toy.

Pancho, you're pretty well known here for knocking the smaller beef cattle breeds like the Dexter, why don't you just head over to Cattletoday.com to post your opinions? Did you ever ask yourself why they are the "in thing"?
Perhaps if you'd have an open mind you would see the benefits. For every one "real" cow you raise, I can raise two of my Dexters. That also means twice as many calves. If you just like to drop them off at the sale barn good for you...but some of us don't like to have the equivalent of a small walk in freezer for each steer we butcher, and we have a ready supply of return and referral customers for our grass fed and finished beef that nets us more than what we could get at the sale barn. I can walk out to the pasture right now and milk any of our cows that are in milk with a halter and a lead tied to the tree, many of whom will still give me a gallon a day sharing with the calf it's raising, to wean at 60-70% at 7 months on merely pasture/hay, water, and mineral.

MO_cows · #67 10/15/12, 12:35 PM

The size of the acreage keeps shifting. First it was 2-3 acres, another post said it might be 4. That is just too small for a permanent herd of bovines, even small ones.

Even though the mini types of cattle might only require "1/2 acre per head", that doesn't mean you can take one animal and confine it to 1/2 acre --it will hammer that land too hard and eventually destroy it. IF the land is in fact closer to 4 acres, and the fencing can be set up for rotating where each section of pasture gets some rest, maybe some mini type cattle could work. Maybe.

I wouldn't attempt a breeding herd on that size land base. Get a couple of weanlings and finish them, that way the land gets to rest in between. Sell one to cover the expenses for your own meat.

ChristieAcres · #68 10/15/12, 12:47 PM

Rotating pasture is critical!!!

pancho · #69 10/15/12, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakeportfarms

Pancho, you're pretty well known here for knocking the smaller beef cattle breeds like the Dexter, why don't you just head over to Cattletoday.com to post your opinions? Did you ever ask yourself why they are the "in thing"?
Perhaps if you'd have an open mind you would see the benefits. For every one "real" cow you raise, I can raise two of my Dexters. That also means twice as many calves. If you just like to drop them off at the sale barn good for you...but some of us don't like to have the equivalent of a small walk in freezer for each steer we butcher, and we have a ready supply of return and referral customers for our grass fed and finished beef that nets us more than what we could get at the sale barn. I can walk out to the pasture right now and milk any of our cows that are in milk with a halter and a lead tied to the tree, many of whom will still give me a gallon a day sharing with the calf it's raising, to wean at 60-70% at 7 months on merely pasture/hay, water, and mineral.

It takes as long for a dexter to have a calf as it does a real cow. They don't have them in half the time.
Your dexter is less than half the size of a real beef cow so you will need to raise twice as many to have the same amount of meat.

Dexters are the "in" thing with people who are new to raising cattle. They are the "in" thing for people who are hobby raisers who want a pet instead of a cow.

If you raise any beef or dairy breed the same way as you raise your dexters you can do the same thing with them. It takes the same labor to care for a dexter as a real cow but you only have half as much meat. It takes just as long to raise a dexter for beef as any beef breed but you end up with half the meat.

Dexters cost more per pound than a real cow. People who are hobby and pet people don't worry about the cost. People who raise cattle for beef or milk would be much more interested in more of each for less cost.

Dexters have many different health problems that are because of the breed.
They are a real nice toy but not for anyone who needs a real cow.

badlander · #70 10/15/12, 01:33 PM

MO_cows I couldn't agree more with you on your statement about overgrazing. We are in North Eastern MO and our homestead, prior owner an Amish couple, beat the living daylights out of the pasture by overgrazing. His outlook was "Well, maybe I can get two more steers on this land and while I'm at it add 6 more sheep and get X number of dollars next year at sale." Sigh. The end result was grass chewed down to the root, timber damaged by grazing and a lot of animal skeletons that we are finding everywhere. His motto was, if you have live stock you are gonna have dead stock and man he excelled at the latter. We calculated a 10,000 dollar loss in livestock just counting the sheep, goat and cattle skeletons that we have found over the last 3 years. The sheep were parasite infested and I imagine so were the cattle. His horses, beautiful Hafflingers, looked bloated with parasites and I'm sure a lot of it was caused by the animals grazing on the short, parasite infested grass.

So what everyone is telling you about limiting the number of animals you want to potentially graze is critical and well worth the listening. Don't bite off more than you can chew or you will pay with damaged pasture that takes years to recover.

oregon woodsmok · #71 10/15/12, 02:25 PM

I have a 2 1/2 acre irrigated pasture that will support 2 cows for 6 months out of the year. Irrigated pasture, as in really premium, highly productive pasture.

3 acres of pasture is going to take some careful management in order to support 2 head of cattle. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying that is not a lot of pasture for cattle.

Goats require a super tight fence. They can get out of almost anything and they jump and climb.

Goat meat tastes OK. It has a nice texture. The flavor is vaguely lamb-like, but much more mild. I don't like goat dairy products, but the goat meat tastes fine.

If you get sheep, shearing can be a serious problem. The hair sheep do not require shearing and the meat is much milder in flavor than the meat from wool sheep.

Pigs might or might not tear up the ground. I don't know if it varies by breed, but if I put pigs out on pasture, I would ring their noses. Pigs will stay in hot wire, but coyotes do not stay out of hot wire and coyotes are happy to eat pigs.

Cattle can hold their own with predators. Smaller livestock will need enough fencing to keep the predators out.

lakeportfarms · #72 10/15/12, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

It takes as long for a dexter to have a calf as it does a real cow. They don't have them in half the time.
Your dexter is less than half the size of a real beef cow so you will need to raise twice as many to have the same amount of meat.

If you look purely at meat, you're right. If you are also selling the heifers, they would produce higher sales numbers on the same acreage.

Dexters are the "in" thing with people who are new to raising cattle. They are the "in" thing for people who are hobby raisers who want a pet instead of a cow.

Dexters are both. And, unlike you, I have two avenues to market our cows. Yes, at the sale barn I'll be nicked, but private sale customers only care about the quality of the product, and Dexter beef rates very highly for overall quality. I don't need to split up a whole steer so it would fit in somebody's freezer. This makes it much easier for me to get private customers, it's their steer, they can come and pick it out and get the entire animal with whatever cuts they want. They see how it is raised, and they can specify how they want it finished. Most choose grass only, no grain.

If you raise any beef or dairy breed the same way as you raise your dexters you can do the same thing with them. It takes the same labor to care for a dexter as a real cow but you only have half as much meat. It takes just as long to raise a dexter for beef as any beef breed but you end up with half the meat.

It's the same labor to take a round bale or square bales out, it takes the same labor to put up or repair fences, and again, you can have nearly twice as many cows to sell or beef out.

Dexters cost more per pound than a real cow. People who are hobby and pet people don't worry about the cost. People who raise cattle for beef or milk would be much more interested in more of each for less cost.

You've just made my point. They cost more, and you can sell roughly twice as many for nearly the same inputs as full size breeds. If I have 20 acres and I can stock and sell 20 Dexters, or 10 full size cows per year, and I can sell the Dexters for nearly the same amount as a full size cow, it seems to me that my profits will be higher. Some people want a dual purpose cow that raises a calf for beef and allows them to milk as well. Dairy breeds are high maintenance and are costly to feed out, and many people are not interested in the quantity of milk they produce every day for their own use. A Dexter, or two, can provide a gallon a day and calving can be staggered to allow for milk year round while the other is drying off.

Dexters have many different health problems that are because of the breed.
They are a real nice toy but not for anyone who needs a real cow.

What health problems? Chondrodysplasia and PHA? Both can be worked around very easily. I'd beg to differ that Chondrodysplasia carrier animals are problems. In fact, they raise very good beef animals that wean at higher percentages than non-carriers, and they also lay down fat sooner than non-carriers and can usually be butchered several months earlier.

Haven · #73 10/15/12, 03:07 PM

Do chondroplastic cattle have more problems with birthing?

No worries on the small 2-4 acre pasture. Overgrazing too many animals or feedlot style is not even an option I would consider. This pasture is very lush with dense clover. I normally get 3 cuttings per year - this year was 2 cuttings with the drought. We get plenty of rain in the NE, but winter is the concern. I haven't seen a coyote since I moved here, just fox that live a few acres over in the treeline. Currently looking into adding 5-8 more acres to the property, which would expand the potential pasture area to somewhere around 10 acres or more.

The neighbor does have a goat farm with all milkers, I also see them keeping a purebred Boer buck. They probably have 20 or more goats on a divided 4 acre pasture. I don't want to even think of what their feed bill is each month.

ps. I also live 30 mins from a large, active sale barn.

pancho · #74 10/15/12, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakeportfarms

What health problems? Chondrodysplasia and PHA? Both can be worked around very easily. I'd beg to differ that Chondrodysplasia carrier animals are problems. In fact, they raise very good beef animals that wean at higher percentages than non-carriers, and they also lay down fat sooner than non-carriers and can usually be butchered several months earlier.

Why work around something when you can get a better meat or milk animal for a cheaper price. One that will out preforn the other by twice.
Hobby and pet owners like them a lot.
People who raise cattle for a purpose see them about the same as emus, llamas, pot bellied pigs. Toys.

Bettacreek · #75 10/15/12, 05:43 PM

Hands down, get some sheep. Our lamb is actually a very well behaved bundle of wool and meat. Eats grass, nothing else. When it's time to go into his stall, I just walk to the room, he follows behind, comes into the room and turns to look at me. Goats, I've heard that they can pose problems with fencing, same with pigs. I like the idea of a dexter cow, or possibly a jersey. But, still, sheep. You can use the wool and meat, and they eat grass. Pretty simple.

BobbyB · #76 10/15/12, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

It takes as long for a dexter to have a calf as it does a real cow. They don't have them in half the time.
Your dexter is less than half the size of a real beef cow so you will need to raise twice as many to have the same amount of meat.

Dexters are the "in" thing with people who are new to raising cattle. They are the "in" thing for people who are hobby raisers who want a pet instead of a cow.

If you raise any beef or dairy breed the same way as you raise your dexters you can do the same thing with them. It takes the same labor to care for a dexter as a real cow but you only have half as much meat. It takes just as long to raise a dexter for beef as any beef breed but you end up with half the meat.

Dexters cost more per pound than a real cow. People who are hobby and pet people don't worry about the cost. People who raise cattle for beef or milk would be much more interested in more of each for less cost.

Dexters have many different health problems that are because of the breed.
They are a real nice toy but not for anyone who needs a real cow.

Amen! I dont have time to beg for a buyer. And while a lot of folks dont like auction barns, they are the handiest way for me to sell stock.

If ( I dont have the acreage for cattle right now ) I did raise cattle, it would be full sized so they didnt take a hit at the auction.

mekasmom · #77 10/15/12, 05:58 PM

I would raise a couple of cows for the freezer. You have already been storing hay. Figure about an acre an animal plus some of your hay in winter.

lakeportfarms · #78 10/15/12, 06:21 PM

Some of us don't beg for a buyer. Some of us have buyers that beg for what we raise. If the sale barn works for you, great. That doesn't mean that it works for everybody. Some of us have developed a pretty nice market outside of the sale barn, and do very well with it.

BobbyB · #79 10/15/12, 06:27 PM

And some people do not like having their pet projects talked down for fear of looking silly. Regardless of market or profit.

bruce2288 · #80 10/15/12, 06:30 PM

You mentioned that you don't want a lot of extra work. So buy weaned animals and forget the breeding and birthing. 40 lb lambs will be well over a 100lbs by fall, goats like wise would be ready to butcher, I have no idea the gain you would get from a hog on straight grass without supplemental feed.( I would ask that question, there is a difference in running hogs on a pasture and giving grain or dairy and simply letting them graze) You not have to keep a calf 18-24 months to reach butcher weight, If you want to butcher an 1100 lb streer after 6 months of grazing you need to put in a 600-700lb steer in the pasture.

You said you like lamb, but think that it would be too much meat? Average shorn lamb dressing % is 52. So if you packaged every bone and piece of fat you would have 52 lbs from a 100lb lamb.