220 Volt Wire Run Info Needed

"You asked about wiring a building with a total of 3 wires between them...."

NO, I ASKED WHAT THE MAX AMPERAGE I COULD RUN ON #6 WIRES AT 350 FEET RUN. IF YOU SEE THE FIRST SENTENCE OF WHAT YOU QUOTED YOU WILL SEE THAT I REALIZED THAT I WOULD NEED A 4TH CONDUCTOR FOR THE GROUND.

AS FOR THE 60 AMPS SAFELY, I THINK THAT IS BOGUS BECAUSE OF THE VOLTAGE DROP. MY NEIGHBOR WHO IS A ELECTRICAL ENGINEER GOT OUT HIS TABLES AND TELLS ME I CAN SAFELY RUN 22.5 AMPS OVER #6 WIRE AT 350 FEET. THEREFORE IF I RUN A MAX OF 15 OR 20 AMPS I SHOULD BE SAFE. I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE TO RUN A 4TH CONDUCTOR FOR A GROUND AND SINCE THIS BARN SITS IN PRETTY ROCKY GROUND WHICH DOESN'T PERMIT A GOOD GROUND, I WILL BOTH RUN THE 4TH WIRE AND RUN ANOTHER WIRE TO A GROUND ROD.

MY ONLY REASON FOR WANTING TO RUN 220 VOLTS TO THE BARN IS TO THEORETICALLY DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF CAPACITY I WOULD HAVE AT THE BARN. I DOUBT I EVER WOULD RUN 220 VOLTS, BUT WIRING IT FOR 220 WITH A RETURN TO ALLOW 110 AND A GROUND FOR SAFETY GIVES ME AS MUCH CAPABILITY AS POSSIBLE. My MAX load I can envision on the circuits would be either an electric saw, a small compressor, sheep shears, or a heat lamp for lambs. I will probably only install two single plugs, one on each 110 circuit in the barn to be sure to not run multiples of these items at once.

Last question - If I used #6 or #4 aluminum wire for the ground wire run, would that be sufficient???

Yucca, with the help of your engineer neighbor, you have a great handle on how this all works. All you need at the barn is a four circuit, sixty amp, lug only "load center" from a supply house. It has to have an isolated neutral bar, not just a ground bar bolted to the back of the enclosure. They run less than $15 bucks. The fact that the box is rated at sixty amps has nothing to do with wire size, or breaker size at the house. As long as your total load on the panel doesn't run above the 22.5 amp calculation, you will be just fine. With a four circuit panel ,you can have a 220V load and a pair of 110v circuits for heat lamps, shears, a few overhead lights, or whatever. BTW, there is no compelling reason to add a ground rod at the barn, the system is well grounded already. Good luck.

Already have a service that came off of a temporary service that a friend used when he was building a couple of houses. The electricians left it there and he wanted it gone. I was happy to oblige. Will check for the groundbar attachment placing. It is only about 5-6 years old and I don't figure an electrician would be putting himself in danger. But you never know!!!

on the 4th wire depends some on where it originates from, if it originates from a distribution point or from a panel, if from a panel yes 4 wries are needed and the ground and neutral is separated at the sub panel, if from a distribution point it is its own main panel,
the difference is if it ran to a livestock barn, and if it is a live stock barn there is a lot more grounding/bonding rules that come into effect, (and the reason is to minimize stray voltage),

Your comments as to how to ground it, and you started out with having a 3-wire setup available lead many of us to believe you wanted to run your wiring on a total of 3 wires. Whatever you tried to say, it didn't come out very clearly at any rate. Sorry if this side-tracked your thread some.

As long as we are nit-picky, you call the building a barn. If this has livestock in it (with heat lamps and all I'd guess it is a livestock barn) then the main breaker box needs to be mounted outside the barn......

My electrician forgot about that, I mentioned it & he said oops, yup, that was a new rule at the time.

--->Paul

Good idea for the breaker box on the outside. In fact I can most easily do that so that it is under the eaves on the side of the barn to keep it out of direct weather and with the added advantage of being accessible by reaching over a fence rather than having to go inside the corral at all to reach it.

If you want 110 or 220, you need 3 wires. If you want 220 and 110 you need 2 hot wires a neutral and a ground (4 wires). This is if you are coming off of another load center. You can get away with 3 wires if you are coming out of the power company panel.

Also would be a good idea to put your cables inside of conduit at least where they go through any crushed rock.

__________________
I'm in my own little world, but it's ok. They know me here!

Okay, sounds like both the 4th wire and a ground rod is needed. Since it's a #6 cable you'd probably only need a #8 thhn wire to go with the #6 cable. If you are running it through PVC conduit, that is.

Designate two wires from the cable as your load wires. This would make 220 volts to a 220 volt subpanel. The 3rd wire of your cable can be designated as your return neutral wire. The #8 thhn wire, should be marked with green tape on both ends, this will be your ground wire.

The two designated load wires will hook under a 60 amp breaker in your main panel box and the other end will hook up to a 40 amp breaker in your subpanel. You might could get by using a 60 amp in the subpanel, but if you don't really have a whole lot electric usage, you might could save yourself a few bucks by downsizing to a 40 amp double pole breaker. Wouldn't be a whole lot of savings tho.

Then you could come out of your subpanel with 110 volt lines to whatever you need them for.

Good luck.

__________________
r.h. in oklahoma

Raised a country boy, and will die a country boy.

I just don't understand where folks get 40 or 60 amps on this run, it's only good for 20-25 amps for that long a run?

---->Paul

setting code books aside for a moment.... why cant he just run the three wires? One for each of the 120 legs, one for ground, just like the wiring from the transformer to a house? Seems like it should be about the same..... the only difference I see is that he will be running the hot leads through a breaker... which has nothing to do with grounding.

__________________
"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

The thing is you should have a ground that is not connected to the Neutral line.
That is why 4 wires are needed for 220.
There will be 2 wires caring 110, the other one is neutral, but then where is the ground?

Have to use conduit and that is considered a wet location. Thhn wire is only for dry so you have to use wire rated thwn.

350 feet is a long run. 6 gauge wire is the right size for a 20 amp circuit with that long of a run, and I would recommend a 20 amp service for outlets in your barn. Using 6 gauge wire for a 350 foot run will keep the voltage drop less than 2% under full load, which will be pristine service.

The only concern I have is that twisted 6 gauge cable might be too stiff to pull through conduit. But copper is expensive enough (maybe $1/foot for single conductor 6 gauge wire) that it's worth taking the time to make your twisted cable work, if you already have the twisted cable on hand at no cost. In that case I would dig the trench, put the conduit pieces over the twisted cable, then glue the conduit together in the trench.

You will need three 6 gauge wires; two wires for hot and one wire for common. Being 350 feet away, it will be a lot cheaper to drive a ground rod at the barn than to run a 6 gauge ground wire from the house. If you have some 6 gauge wire laying around then you could run the safety ground from the house if you want to, but if not I'm sure that you will find a ground rod to be a lot less expensive than 350 feet of 6 gauge wire. If I was in your shoes I would run the 2 hots and the common from your house, then drive a ground rod at the barn.

You will want to terminate the run at the barn with a breaker box, equipped with a two-pole 20 amp breaker for the main, then installing individual breakers for light and outlet circuits. Properly installing breakers will allow you to use smaller gauge wire for power distribution throughout the barn. A breaker box won't be too expensive and will keep you in compliance with building codes.

__________________
Ask Me About Linux System Administration

I would drive a ground rod at the barn. That would be a lot cheaper than buying 350 feet of 6 gauge wire.

__________________
Ask Me About Linux System Administration

"You can get away with 3 wires if you are coming out of the power company panel. "

Not if you are up with NEC code. My service to both my house and the separate service to the Shop that were installed in about 1999 REQUIRED 4 wires - 2 hot, 1 return, 1 ground. As best I know they still do today.

I plan to use GFCI circuits at the barn. To do so I have to have a GOOD GROUND otherwise the GFCI won't see an a adequate ground and won't function. I will ground to both a ground rod and a run of #4 aluminum (which I have on Hand) for the ground wire. There is no requirement for the ground wire to be of the same size as either the hots wires or the neutral/return wire. In fact the Neutral doesn't have to be the same size as the Hot wires - it can be smaller. HOWEVER, MY IDEA OF WIRE IS BIGGER IS ALWAYS BETTER.

I made a mistake when I wrote down the specs for the wire. It is THW 600 volt submersible #6 cable that was used for providing power to a 3 phase 30 HP submersible pump 654 feet down in a well. #18 twisted copper wire provided the ground.

GFCI circuits monitor the difference in current flow between hot & common. If there is an imbalance between hot & common then the GFCI breaker will trip, since it's assumed that an imbalance in current flow indicates a ground fault someplace in the circuit. A GFCI breaker works independently from the ground connection, and will even operate properly with no ground connection at all.

The ground rod at the barn should be sufficient for an equipment ground. After all, that's what you have at your house.

__________________
Ask Me About Linux System Administration

.................Why can't the conduit be considered the 4th. conductor..........If he shrink wraps each joint connection too prevent moisture from infiltrating the metal to metal continuity it should last a long time ? , fordy

I don't know if regulators look at buried metal conduit as an acceptable ground conductor or not. Logically I would think so, but you would have to ask a regulator. Threaded or coupled connections may not provide secure enough conductivity.

I was thinking he would be using PVC conduit. It's cheaper and easier to work with. I suspect that using PVC conduit instead of metal conduit would save more than enough to pay for a ground rod.

__________________
Ask Me About Linux System Administration

Ya a 8 foot 5/8 copper ground rod is not that bad in price at all. I have put in two awhile ago. One to protect the barn better the other one went in for a Great Ground on my electric fence. I got mine at Menards.

Just to make electricity _work_, one would only need 2 wires to get 120/220. The 220 only needs the 2 hot wires.

The 120 needs one of the hot wires and a very, very good ground to earth. The Neutral wire wouldn't really be needed.

I've seen them do that after a tornado. Run miles of a single wire to farms to get some electricity working very temp.

But, the neutral witre makes a much better, and much safer 120v setup, so you surely wouldn't want to do without.

Likewise, the ground wire is something you don't want to do without. In a perfect world, you will never ever use it!!! But it is there to protect yourself and your belongings from bad things.

If any other wires come loose, or some insulation comes off, or a wire gets cut - the ground wire will immeadiatly bleed off the 'bad' electricity and set up red flags to breakers, and some special GFI, etc safety equipment to do their thing _right_ away.

This keeps you safe, keeps your building from burbning down, keeps your livestock safe.

So, the ground (bare or green) wire is there as a safety device, normally not ever used.

Now a lot of folk confuse the neutral wire and the ground wire, and forget they are doing very different things. The neural wire is used to complete the electrical 120v circut. The ground wire is there to keep things safe.

If you try to combine thise wires, or use one for the other, you are defeating the whole point of the ground wire. It now is being used to actually carry electricity if you do that, and that makes any grounded metal surface potentially charged with electricity.

The ground wire and the neutral wire are tied together at one point - the main service panel - so they both ground to the same earth ground rods.

But they should not ever be tied together anyplace else, or you create odd, unsafe loops of wire that will not allow the ground wires to give you full protection.

And the only reason that 4th wire is there is to protect you and yours.

--->Paul