Health Insurance = No Homesteaders & No Freedom

I do get your point but one thing to take into consideration. Perhaps this man had never gotten any kind of financial help such as any kind of government help. Sometimes especially with the older generation to ask for that help is worse than death in their minds.

I have never used any kind of govt. assistant programs and I do have insurance (thank goodness). I would however do it if it meant a difference between life and death and I had no other way. My grandfather on the other hand would probably die rather than take any kind of assistance.

We complain about folks using the system and then we complain and ask why they didn't when they needed to. I feel like the system, when used correctly and for what I feel it was designed to do (help someone in dire need get back on their feet) is a good thing, however those abusing it have given it such a bad name that those Americans who truly need it at times (maybe just once in a lifetime) won't use it at all. It's a tough thing!

Which goes back to Melissa's point in a different thread, that farmers, ranchers, construction workers, and the self-employed in general, are apparently supposed to all quit those occupations...

Like I said sidepasser, I realize you don't get this. I truly do.
You live in a well-populated part of the nation and obviously don't understand that the opportunities and benefits that you seem to think are just a part-time job away are NOT... and that's the case for millions of people. Tax-paying people.

Just like the use of bridges, schools, police departments or the Homestead Act, health care in all first-world nations (except ours) has nothing to do with "welfare", and everything to do with civilization. Everyone pitches in for the betterment of the nation. Some more than others. Some will use those goods and services more than others. But that's part of what makes a civilized country.

I've never had a reason to use the police department personally (other than receiving a speeding ticket in 1993), but you don't hear me wailing and gnashing my teeth about the fact that my tax dollars are supporting it for others.

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~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

And that is exsatly what I did also. I Moved Back to where I could make a better living, and get better bennies and I sure am glad I did cause I am WAY better off today because of it.
Health insurance is just a choice that is presented by employers to help get not only workers, but to keep them. It sure isn't a right, but a privilege to have it.
Sure don't want the government to MAKE a person Buy Something they don't want.

Or in our case collapse a civilized country.

Its going to be interesting to see how many react when it all falls down.

"Wait you mean we cant spend several generations of wealth in one generation sustainably?? Why didnt anyone warn us!!!"



When we sell all our assets like third world nations do in such collapses and greece and others are now being forced into, do you think china will keep our national parks and BLM land as parks? Im doubtful myself.

If americans try to protest such moves is it more likely to play out like iceland or greece? They played out vastly differently. Wait, what am I thinking, this is america, we are to cool for that. It cant happen to us. (every empire seems to be populated with the same arrogance)

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I have a high desert arid mountainous climate. Working towards self sufficiency. The potentials of plant breeding and building micro climates amaze me. We must learn to ride the wave.

Yes I sure hope that this debacle HC bill can get defunded so it dies off, and never sees the light of day again.

So all farmers and small buisinessmen in boonies should quit and move to NYC and work at a McD? Cause that is what you are saying. It might be good for the individual to go live a miserable life in the big city in order to get 'better bennies' as you call them, but is it good for the country? You do care about the country as a whole? After all we dont need people living in sparsely populated areas... We dont need no stinking food... since apparently in your view food doesnt come from farms, it comes from McD!

PEON: Pleez masta, pleez masta, I need me some health coverage.....

MASTER: NO, you go over in the corner and die cause only the PRIVILEGED FEW can have the sacred honor of their injuries and illnesses being treated. You have not collected enough green pieces of paper to continue living.

PEON: But masta, you did not give me enough green pieces of paper...

MASTER: It is your fault for not seeking a more generous master. Now go die and leave me alone.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

I only went this far, and this just jumped out at me.

I've wondered about this - cause there are people here that I work with that if they were insurance covered would quit.

Now - just think about this - a smaller group of workers trying to pay for the ones that decided to just be leeches and not work, not contribute to their healthcare cost - or greatly reduce it.
heck - I've even thought about that - how nice not to have to come to a cubicle everyday and not see the outside for hours on end.
How to be able to be a "hippie" of the old school and drift through life with peace, love and minimum work. Let someone else do the work and pay the life bills for a change.

How many workers will abdicate and let the whole thing go belly up?
And why not - if others think that I want to have more taken from my pay, to pay for them - they are sadly mistaken. If I want to help someone, I'll do it at my decision if I have enough money left to do it.

But - the thought above is a major society cop out.

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"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

I see the whole of my arguement has been made by others.
sorry about that, but that first statement just gets me - and what happens when we all do that.

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"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

Oh for Pete's Sake, stop the poor mouthing, we are minimally taxed compared to most industrialized countries. Debt is not good, but we are nowhere near percentage of GNP in debt that countries like Greece are.

There are two ways to get out of debt, EARN MORE and SPEND LESS. Just cause you want to benefit your own situation above the society as a whole, you want to government to EARN NOTHING and SPEND NOTHING. That simply isnt practical. If thats what you want, perhaps you should move to Somalia, they are trying that right now. Oh wait without a real government protecting you, some warlord just killed your family and stole everything you had. Short of you turning into some sort of Rambo to get revenge, you are screwed. Shame...

Thats why we tax ourselves to pay for services. If we are deeply in debt, govt both needs to control spending AND INCREASE TAXES. And yes the corrupt politician that sell their soul to get elected feel need to pay off their benefactors and enrich themselves at the expense of all. Some of that is expected as a price of democracy. You will find same happens under despots. Human nature unfortunately. But cutting off your nose to spite your face is silly. The corrupt will just find another way to steal and the rest of us will be even more miserable without any social support programs. Bake sales just dont pay for $400k hospital bills nor keep all the elderly fed, watered and housed. Elected govt is our only remedy unless you are suggesting we start some guerrilla revolutionary band to strike terror in heart of everyone. Oddly that usually doesnt help situation for joe sixpack anymore than eliminating all social services and giving more tax money to the wealthy.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

Cigna gave their Ex-CEO a $110 million dollar compensation package. They also reported a profit of $19 billion dollars in 2009. This is the same health insurance company who in 2007 refused a liver transplant to a teen. The success rate for that sort of transplant had a 65 percent recovery rate. The teen died btw. There is plenty to cut and gut. When you pay for health insurance you are paying for another company's profit. That profit cost you money.

How many different ways can I say this, you already pay for them. When people do not pay their bill the cost is absorbed by everyone else. That means you too If a business that had an operating cost of x and a certain number of non-paying customers how would one make up that shortfall? By charging everyone else more of course. Maybe if people could afford health care in the first place maybe they wouldn't wait until a problem becomes serious enough to need to go to the ER. And if they could afford the low level care they wouldn't leave the hospital and by extension you with an unpaid bill.

Please by all means challenge it. There are plenty of nations in Europe that are doing just fine. Those that aren't have had a history of economic issues that stretch back way before the current crisis.

The solution is to get rid of private insurance companies and replace it with a single payer system. We've already went over the fact that you already have to pay for those who can't pay, that a certain percentage of your premium goes to extravagant compensation cost, and that health care cost are lower in other countries.

It started unraveling the minute that people wanted lower taxes and with more services. It started unraveling when congress started using SS money to fund general operations. It started unraveling when the USA tried nation building. It started unraveling when corporations were allowed to buy off the government. Indeed there is a huge shock coming and I think the USA is heading for a collapse. The only thing we are not in agreement on as far as that goes is why.

Start citing them. Because even you acknowledged that health care cost in other nations are less than the US. I think you are confusing a single payer system with free health care. That is not what I'm saying at all. There has been too many decades of everyone (all political stripes and colors) thinking they can have everything without having to pay for it.

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http://www.xanga.com/shackman A blog about whatever

I don't think the thread made it to your goals for it.

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"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

Greece is a special case. The came was 100% rigged for them to do as they did. Goldman sachs played a role in that, everyone knew there wasnt a chance they could dig out. It was meant to fail. We cant cover our own medicaid and medicare either. You can pretend putting our debts onto our kids is justifiable I disagree.

Sorry you made these up. I dont want society to fail. I want it to live within its means, I never even spoke of the merits of social programs or not, ONLY that if we use them we should be able to actually afford them. Especially when it is purposeful so the "money changers" always end up on top. (study the IMF in depth, its rather alarming)

This has no basis in reality. In actual reality I DONT want to end up like somalia. Trying to form our entire society around things that WILL fail is simply not sane. such as our fragile ag system and our spending habits. Both will fail if we dont adapt.
Are you agreeing with me now?? Problem is we cant fund CURRENT social programs even with cutting large swaths of other spending AND increasing taxes. That is as boomers retire. Adding social programs to this cant work. Pretending its okay to take a bite out of EVERY loaf of bread from our kids and grandkids is a bit arrogant and sick as well..

Who said we should cut off the nose to psite the face? I have no idea whos posts you read but certainly not mine. I want a government and societal structure the rides through and adapts with changes so it is always there.

Never said one way or the other about whether we should fund such things. Only talked about the fact we cannot in the current form. We need a sustainable path that isnt off a cliff.
And debt based services only keep them fed until the entire structure crumbles...

What in the world are you talking about now??? I want a sustainable path for society, so now I must want to strike fear in everyone?? what in the world??
If you think Im a fan of the wealthy your confused.

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I have a high desert arid mountainous climate. Working towards self sufficiency. The potentials of plant breeding and building micro climates amaze me. We must learn to ride the wave.

Im no fan of insurance companies, as I said already. It doesnt mean we can wish away problems.

Oh I know the numbers inside and out. Doesnt mean we should pretend we are on a sustainable path. Or make it less sustainable.


If you say so. Obviously you dont track the issue well.
Yet we cant even come close to covering CURRENT social programs. Interesting. I guess we can all hold hands and sing when it falls. And wonder, hey we are americans we are to good to have to face reality!!!


I agree all those things are part of the cause. But if you dont believe the debt is also a major cause you might want to study the IMF for instance and see how debt was used over and over to subvert the peoples of the world through debt and some of the means you list here. It leaves the same international players on top over and over.

No Im confusing anything. Im not really interested in convincing you of anything. If we cant fund current obligations I have no idea how people expect to add to this. It cant end well.

Ive went through all the numbers with people saying basically exactly what you have on other boards. It didnt change much. They simply didnt bring it up for awhile. We are to far gone. Our culture is way to arrogant and affluent to admit we cant sustain these things. I dont think we even CAN correct our course because to many left AND right are in unsustainable mindsets. Imo it will have to fail before people see the shape of what we have built for ourselves...

Consider me like the dude in some movie carrying the end is near sign... I just explained why I think this a bit...

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I have a high desert arid mountainous climate. Working towards self sufficiency. The potentials of plant breeding and building micro climates amaze me. We must learn to ride the wave.

Just wait, if that is how you view it now... There is a global game of monopoly afoot. (study the IMF in depth to see the shape) Once debt crushes us you will see many fewer masters and many higher slaves. As the middle class is wiped out and power and wealth concentrated in only a few hands...

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I have a high desert arid mountainous climate. Working towards self sufficiency. The potentials of plant breeding and building micro climates amaze me. We must learn to ride the wave.

The dream of complete self sufficient homesteading is very intoxicating and there are some people who do manage to live well and earn an income large enough to meet all of their needs from just working at home. But most of those people have actually moved into the farming category. Or have a secondary homesteading income such as boarding horses etc.

In this day and age even most farm families have to have an outside income. One partner stays on the farm and the other works to pay for insurance, healthcare and health insurance, education and retirement savings.

If you do depend only on homesteading then you really have to make a successful business of it or be prepared to sacrifice some of the things that make modern life more secure. If you cannot afford health insurance then you have to accept that you will have to pay for services yourself which could bankrupt you OR accept that you may not be able to provide the care you and your family may require. IMO there is nothing wrong with this as long as you are fully aware of and accept responsibility for the consequences.

Perhaps one way that those who make very little and pay no taxes, which I believe is 49% of the population, pay for their own healthcare and contribute to it's cost is to take the Earned Income Credit away. While some get a lot and some don't get a huge amount, it would help cover the cost of their care, while easing the burden on the rest of us.

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My job as a moderator is relatively easy on this forum. From experience, I have determined that whenever a thread gets to four pages it usually is off topic and posters are on the edge of throwing insults and not being nice. Various posts in this thread have been reported. I think this thread has run its course.

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This is the government the Founding Fathers warned us about.....