Questions about electricity

If we get into specific advice, remember a barn for livestock has different rules than a shed without livestock. Back in '08 when they were estimating my rewire, as he did the barn I asked, "doesn't the barn need an outdoor breaker now?" And he said, oh, yea, new rule on that, fogot, thanks. And so my barn has the breaker box on the outside, not inside, and all curcuit wires have to run in from the outside of the building.

There are dozens of little rules like that that can 'get' you.

In '08 you needed to run 4 wires to houses and such, but the exception for ag buildings was still in place, you could run only 3 wires. I believe that has changed. Actually, in '08 you needed to ruin 4 wires to any building with a common water pipe, but no one bothered with that so I didn't either.

The inspector camne, looked at the main box, the house box, and 2 of the outdoor buildings. He signwed of on it, never looked at the other 8 buildings at all...... He was familar with thre electrician I had, and that was good enough for him.

--->Paul

How about a couple propane lights? You can run them a long time for what an electric install would cost. A hundred pound tank would run 2 lights a long time. Propane is $1.01 where I'm at now. And you could do the install yourself.

I looked about over the quote-it didn't include any outlets.

Propane is interesting. I'll be reading about that tonight. Thanks!

Wow, DH just became my hero all over again (he is an electrician, retired but, he did all the wiring on the farmhouse remodel). Never realized how hard it was to get an electrician to come out to one's place if out in the country.

Really though, you need to call the fella back who gave you the estimate. Electricians don't operate like you are talking. He gave you an estimate, he is busy (as evidenced by the fact it took him almost two weeks to get it worked up for you), if you want him to do the work he probably figures you will contact him, and he is not sitting around worrying about whether or not you got his email, he is out working. You and I are both women who have run businesses and we did things differently than most contractors do, like going the extra mile to stay in contact with clients and be helpful and appear enthusiastic, etc. They don't molly coddle, not because they don't care but, because it doesn't occur to them they need to and even if it did, they don't have time since they are busy doing whatever it is (electricity, carpentry, drywalling, painting, etc) they do. Most of these guys don't have secretaries to take care of paperwork for them and most of them HATE paperwork to begin with, so, call him back if you want him to the do job for you.

Having said that I would like to add that over the years I have assisted DH with a lot of wiring jobs on our homes and sometimes when he got behind on real jobs. I know more than the average woman about wiring due to this but, NO WAY would I attempt to wire a building by myself, a little knowledge, esp. when it comes to something than can bite like electricity, is dangerous.

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Maggie

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Shannon, that looks like a fair estimate to me. We did something similar on our house because DH did not want wires running overhead to the house and wanted to bury them. Trenching was easy enough with a Ditch Witch (I did it so that tells ya something, 50 year old woman).

Outlets in the barn once you have a breaker box in place are the easy part. Conduit is your friend.

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Maggie

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this is a good and basic book on wireing and there is a section on farm wireing as well,

Wiring Simplified: Based on the 2011 National Electrical Code [Book]

Just offering up some things to consider from the days ....

How many hrs do ya reckon this guy has spent running around giving out estimates? When running out into the country, it can easily become an hour of driving time + 30-60 minutes time measuring, talking, suggesting, etc ....

How many times do you reckon he has done this ( estimates) only to have it done by the owners? OK, so now you will handle the trenching ... but will it be timely? Or be done and muddy needing pumped and cleaned out?

Can't begin to number the times this has been promised ... only to not materialize ... might be due to not being able to borrow the truck or the trailer or ... = more wasted driving time.

Then there is the flip side of what you expect. For sure, it is but a single project for you ..... a livelihood for him.

So perhaps he has a trencher or mini-excavator ( that costs money) and requires upkeep.

If you read the rental contract, you will find that you are responsible for flat tires, chain breakage etc ... You might get by OK once but for the fella doing it day in and day out .... it is going to happen and must be considered.

Hauling - maybe you have the stuff or maybe you can borrow it and pull it off ... but day in and day out .... ya gotta have it.

Then .... Then ....this is a one time project for you that tends to run in your favor because of that. I really have no thoughts on pricing for this job nor any idea of who it is. But I do know that it cost me just under $24,000/yr for $3 million General Liability Insurance, $1 million for Workers Comp, $1 million Umbrella and $1 million Liability Vehicle insurance.

This was whether I spent 60-70 hrs a week running around telling folks how/what to do or actually doing it.

And also is why, after 13+ yrs of doing this on my own, I'm most proud to clock in as a Maint Tech 4 miles from home and tell folks that I just do not have the time

Saying nothing .... just offering perspective.

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Going hungry ain't much of a plan

Thanks for the perspective.
I would have already dug that trench-I don't let a lot of grass grow under my feet.

I know owning your own business is hard-I've done it. I also did the books for a guy who owned a paving company and he was the hardest working man (besides my daddy) I've ever seen. He worked from sun up til sun down 7 days a week and wrote up estimates long after dark (before the days of the Internet).

But that is all just a part of it. If he didn't want to work for himself he should find a place that will let him punch a clock.

It ain't dug yet? Now that you know what is needed? Are Permits needed? Pulled?

Actually that 18" requirement is to the top of the conduit so it should be 20" minimum.

Gluing PVC is easy ....Is the 1.5" PVC in place? Inspected ( if required)?

Wanting to work for yourself and making a living by giving out free info ain't hardly conducive.

Call him and tell him that the trench will be in Tuesday??? if it works for him.

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Going hungry ain't much of a plan

We're really fortunate in that one of our customers is an electrician, so he's already been out here and put in some new outlets, some motion sensor lights and did a special hook up for our generator (should we ever need it).

We'll use him to run electricity to the barn once we get it built.

We aren't as fortunate when it comes to plumbing though and may have to just ask our neighbors who to call.

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It is not dug yet. At the last place we dug the hole before the line was laid and a doeling fell in and died. I won't take a chance on an animal or child falling into a 300ft long hole, even if it is only 18in deep.

And there it lies.

Please understand that I mean no intention of belittlement ... only experience of 30+ yrs playing in this field.

The last 2 quotes that I gave out ...

$85 to install a phone jack. When the lady asked if I would do it ( mind you of the insurance and estimate travel/costs) for $35, I asked her if she knew how much the phone company would charge. She replied that she had asked them and their price was $225 ... but a friend of hers had a son that worked as an electrician and said that he would do it for a case of beer plus materials.

The last was a lady that wanted a lake home dock wired and a temporary pole set for the home construction. Upon arrival, I pulled onto a newly laid gravel drive ..... and noted that when she arrived 20 minutes late that she parked out on the paved road. We went over a chunk of stuff and she was amazed and happy about the thought/presentation.

The next day she called and said that she really did not appreciate me going into the property like I did ( pulling into the driveway) and that she would do it herself.

Couldn't help but laugh and tell her that I was sorry but I had grown up here and we were taught to actually use driveways

Point being - while this is of the most importance to you ...... the dancing is reminiscent of many a call.

You said that you would have already dug the trench .... but it ain't dug yet.

Please do not belittle folks that choose to punch a clock vs dealing with uncertainty.

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Going hungry ain't much of a plan

I don't understand why it's a bad thing that I don't want to dig a 300ft hole if I don't have anyone to install my line? It seems responsible not to dig a hole until there is someone lined up to do the work. I lost one of my two first baby goats in a freak accident I would have never imagined until I came home and had to dig her swollen dead upside down body out of it. I don't want to do that again.

My SO punches a clock. I do not belittle it. My point is that there are some who are willing to accept what comes along with working for themselves and some that are not. Not good, not bad, but different.

I think it is poor of you not to call the fella that gave you an estimate. I don't know the particulars of your dealings with him, but he gave you an estimate, ball is in your court, you are being rude not to respond to him. If you are uncomfortable with him that is cool, move on to the next, but you seem out of line to get an estimate and not respond to it.

I don't mean this to be a shouting match, or pile on to you, or nothing at all bad. Just, firmly believe you are in thw wrong on that point, in normal business relations. I'd ask that you reflect on your stance on that.

What the other fella is saying is the real -other side- of being an electrician or plumber or builder - you got to deal with the riff-raff, and that kinda hardens you to dealing with folk.

If it were me I'd call the guy up, set up when it works for him, and be sure to keep up your side of the bargin and have the trench done before he gets there. For a 300 foot run that wire is gonna be expensive and sounds like you are using conduit, so the price is fair.

Not sure what else you are looking for.


And I understand your situation - when I had that shed built a few years ago, I wen to a large farm show and looked at a couple dozen builders there. Most of them were very poor presentations, some had a spouse or brother sitting there handing out fliers, didn't know nothing about a building or what they did. Found 2 I liked, they both took my number & would call in a week. I'm still waiting for one to call, my shed was put up by the other one that fall. I know what it's like to be a little put off by the people in the trades, I don't want you to think I'm against you.

But - you are wrong in not replying to his estimate - you were given the ball.........

--->Paul

Contact your local trade or vocational school. You may have to provide food and drinks along with your materials.

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A socialist will trample over one hundred poor people just for the chance to throw a rock at a rich man.

I have another question. If there are electrical codes in your area, you install it, there's a fire..... will your insurance cover the loss?

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

You need a "Skinny." For all my plumbing and electrical needs, i call "Skinny." No he's not licensed, and he has to work around his other job, but he's honest and dependable, and charges reasonably. Keep asking around. Somebody out there can do this work for you in the manner that you expect--you just haven't hooked up with the right person yet.

. . ."In the manner you expect" . . . . .

I believe that she is going through a painfull learning process that comes with the reality of electrical wiring . . . .

It ain't cheap . . . . . . . . . . .TO DO IT RIGHT . . . . . .

YES . . If there was a fire and the fire marshall determined it to be caused by faulty wiring . . the insurance is out the window................

In my area wiring needs to be 24" deep..............

It's fun to experiment & learn with plumbing. If you mess up, you get wet & have to mop up a bit of water, or you get cold instead of warm....

With electricity, there is a real danger. If a screw or 2 isn't tightened right, if the wrong 'grease' or metal is used to connect aluminum feeder wire to a box, or if you don't get the ground wire isolated from the nuetral properly; you set up a trap that waits for a long, long time for the right conditions, and then you make a fire, or a bad jolt, or kill a critter or a human. With a barn, and the mix of water thrown in, and corrosion from the critters, it is especially important.

Addin a few electrical outlets or lights to a good breaker box can be done by a careful person. There are lots of good books to describe this, if you are a good book reader/ instructuon follower.

Adding in the whole sub-feed to the building is a _tall_ order for a person learning from a book to cover all the details. She needs to have a sub pannel at the nain box already, then wire the box in/ no outside the barn, that is a lot of technical stuff for a 1st time wirer to get right! This goes well beyond what is described in the consumer wiring books.....

Tornado went through here years ago, the utility company wired up some farms with a _Single wire_ as they went through their stock of wire, so places could get 120v power. Came back as quick as they could when more supplies were brought in and did it right.

It's easy to get electricity at the end of 2 wires; or even a single wire and a ground.

The trick is to do so _safely_, and a lot of homeowners don't quite understand the details of that _safely_ part; they get juice at the receptical, and figure all is well, no need to worry about it......

--->Paul

I would NOT dig the trench until the day before the man shows up either. If you were to dig it now and no one showed up for several weeks it would be caving in, in places and would have to be dug back out in places. Smart Move On Your Part.
According to the estimate you posted you have got to add a sub-panel at the pole because your box is full----if you did not have to do that it would not be to hard to do. You could do this----ask the electrician if you run the pipe and wire how much he would charge to do the panels on each end. I am sure it would save you a decent amount. Find out what size wire he wants run and if it needs to be run in conduit or not. Run get the wire and the pipe and the trencher, dig the trench and lay out the wire beside it----slide the pipe if needed onto the wire and glue the joints. Lay the pipe and wire in the trench using a 90 degree to turn up on each end where it is needed. He can come and do the rest in a lot less time because you will already have the "dirty" work done. Good Luck!