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poorboy 07/03/12 08:09 PM
management
 
I became acquainted with a gentleman from Ark. at a local flea mkt. 5-6 yrs.ago. he was in failing health and was buying and selling at the flea market to generate a little cash.
he mentioned one day that he had been in the egg business, to get him to talk I remarked "not very profitable was it?" .28cents a hen profit each year average he remarked" "Couldna live on that" I sez. "i had over 600,000 hens" he remarked...So I guess 168,000$ profit Is a good deal..he even done better than the rest that had been regulars at the flea mkt for 20 years..He was extremely sharp on the margins of things he bought and sold (bought close and sold close, big volume of sales)..really miss the old gent as the cancer that made him give up the egg business finally took him months ago..:(

Rustaholic 07/03/12 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregon woodsmok (Post 5990499)
I've read Highlands note. There is absolutely nothing insulting there.

Somehow, highlands gets prices for his product that the rest of us can only dream about. I don't know if that is because he is the best salesman in the world, or if it is a function of where he lives, with a huge customer base of wealthy healthy purchasers. But whatever it is, he's got himself a system that makes farming pay well for him.

Good for him, I say, and more power to him. Just because in my area, the farmers all have second jobs and a lot of farmers go broke, doesn't mean that some people haven't got the system working for them just perfectly. Highlands isn't the only one i know of who has figured out how to make farming pay in the area he lives in.

I personally think it is a rare person, in a perfect environment, who has mad marketing skills who can make a lot of money while farming. For the rest of it, it costs too much money to get in, land is too expensive, equipment is too expensive, taxes are too high, weather is too uncooperative, and product sells for far too little.

Of course that doesn't mean that the family can't be fed on home raised food and a few dollars can't be made by selling some of the produce. Just that most of us can't pay all the bills and live entirely on the product of the farm.
Highlands is raising pigs the right way and if I was in that area I would buy their meat.
I have a farming friend.
I have just been enlightening them about the higher prices of truly healthy meats. They own 100 acres and cut and sell hay from over 300 more leased acres. They raise pigs, butcher them and start them cooking in one of their many trailered pig roasters for events. They do 4 to 6 meat cattle per year, butcher them and sell the meat. They butcher tons of deer in season. AND they have a good sized boat to do charter fishing in Lake Michigan.
They make a good living and the wife works where I do for the insurance just like it has been posted here.

MichelleFL 07/03/12 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerDale (Post 5972828)
Growing most of our own feed, and always having spilled grain, screenings, or bin sweepings, or mixed grains, etc., for us the most profitable on a per acre basis, would be any kid of poultry. Ducks, broilers, turkeys, laying hens. When it only cost you 80 cents a dozen to grow eggs worth 3 bucks, a dollar a pound to raise ducks or broilers, where the ducks sell for 5 and the chickens sell for 3 as free rangers, it is clear. But, pigs would be right in there, and if your land is cheap like it is here, sheep have been VERY good to the farmers. Cattle are about half as profitable as sheep "here". depends how you raise them. If you raise sheep like wooly pigs, treat them like wooly pigs, IE housed indoors and not out on grass, the profits decline.

Having hayland, machinery, feed grains, grainland, and good pasture, at an economical purchase price, and you can make almost any critter profitable.

But to some, a farm is anything over say 5 acres, but you are very limited on those acres. When you get talking 320 acres minimum, then there is hope of raising all the feed for a reasonable number of animals, that can be hoped for to turn a profit. I guess it depends on what is meant by profit? Profit as in thirty six cents, or profit as in 36 000 bucks???
Where is land cheap? What state is Eastern Saskatchewan in?

oregon woodsmok 07/04/12 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleFL (Post 5998104)
Where is land cheap? What state is Eastern Saskatchewan in?
Not a good endorsement for our school system.

Allen W 07/04/12 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleFL (Post 5998104)
Where is land cheap? What state is Eastern Saskatchewan in?
Canada

fantasymaker 07/07/12 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by texican (Post 5971853)
If you have to buy feed, your not going to make any money, if your 'honest'... as in figuring in all your infrastructure, food, and vet costs. Most old timers will tell you your not raising beef (or goats) but grass (or forage). Buying hay negates any thought of profits.
Logic like this is why lots of them old Farmers are out of business.
A bale of hay is worth something. It makes no difference if you sell it or feed it its worth the same.
Think of it this way. Say hay is seeling for $3 a bale. Every bale you feed could have been sold for $ 3.
If you feed 10 bales its $30 bucks . You could have sold it and had $30 bucks in your pocket.
If you buy your feed its still $30 bucks.
No mater how you look at it that stock cost you $30 bucks to feed.

fantasymaker 07/07/12 11:41 AM
In the end the most profitable stock is the kind you like. If You like hogs you will pay more attention and know them better . You will catch tiny problems before they are big. You will put in the time to do things right.

ryanthomas 07/07/12 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fantasymaker (Post 6004575)
Logic like this is why lots of them old Farmers are out of business.
A bale of hay is worth something. It makes no difference if you sell it or feed it its worth the same.
Think of it this way. Say hay is seeling for $3 a bale. Every bale you feed could have been sold for $ 3.
If you feed 10 bales its $30 bucks . You could have sold it and had $30 bucks in your pocket.
If you buy your feed its still $30 bucks.
No mater how you look at it that stock cost you $30 bucks to feed.
If you produce and sell 10 bales of hay for $3, you don't have $30 in your pocket. You have $30 minus what it cost you to make the hay. Let's say it costs you $1 a bale to make, then after you sell 10 bales you only have $20 in your pocket, not $30.

It's a form of arbitrage. By feeding your hay to your own animals, you're essentially buying it from yourself for $2 a bale (the profit you could have made off of it) instead of buying it from someone else for $3 a bale.

Some might say you're buying it from yourself for $1 per bale since that's what it cost you to make it, but that leaves out the opportunity cost of not selling it to someone else.

There's also the difficult to measure value in keeping the nutrients on your farm.

Heritagefarm 07/07/12 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fantasymaker (Post 6004582)
In the end the most profitable stock is the kind you like. If You like hogs you will pay more attention and know them better . You will catch tiny problems before they are big. You will put in the time to do things right.
You can love something a lot, but if you actually like the animals that much you're liable to allow feelings to get in the instead of a proper culling system. And if you love a certain animal enough, you'll never get rid of it and then you're just running a feeding operation in the red.

fantasymaker 07/07/12 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanthomas (Post 6004706)
If you produce and sell 10 bales of hay for $3, you don't have $30 in your pocket. You have $30 minus what it cost you to make the hay. Let's say it costs you $1 a bale to make, then after you sell 10 bales you only have $20 in your pocket, not $30.

It's a form of arbitrage. By feeding your hay to your own animals, you're essentially buying it from yourself for $2 a bale (the profit you could have made off of it) instead of buying it from someone else for $3 a bale.

Some might say you're buying it from yourself for $1 per bale since that's what it cost you to make it, but that leaves out the opportunity cost of not selling it to someone else.

There's also the difficult to measure value in keeping the nutrients on your farm.
But the point is if you put it in a cow it still costs you $30 to feed that cow.

ryanthomas 07/07/12 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fantasymaker (Post 6005028)
But the point is if you put it in a cow it still costs you $30 to feed that cow.
I understand what you were saying now...I was caught in a circular loop from some of the other posts.

Plowpoint 07/08/12 06:21 AM
I know what you two are saying, but sometimes there are reasons for having livestock on the farm.

For years my father just leased his farm out to other farmers who needed the land, but in 2008 when I took over the farm I realized we could no longer do that and continue to pay property taxes. Having livestock made sense. Since doing that the amount of improvements on the farm has been monumental.

For instance; for years we wanted an access road to a far off field that was difficult to access. When grazing sheep had to cross a stream to get to it, the USDA provided a road that had numerous benefits; protection of the stream, truck access to the field, a safe passage for harvesting equipment, a road for the harvesting of forest products...the list really goes on. All because I had sheep that were mucking up a stream. That has tangible benefits that are hard to place into a cost analysis.

At the same time, now that I have sheep and are placing food on the national food chain, I am entitled to some low interest farmer loans. The difference between 4% interest and 1.25% interest is staggering...again directly attributed to the sheep I have grazing, so again that is difficult to quantify in a line item cost analysis.

Then there are the subsidies. With animals on the farm, you can qualify for subsidies which are real life payments that certainly off set the cost of raising animals. A lot of the things were were doing anyway and not getting paid for, but with ownership of animals on the farm, direct payments are now made. Again those are hard to calculate but certainly off-set the cost of having to obtain feed.

I cannot put exact per bale dollar figures on this stuff, but these three quick examples show that farming is complex, and it takes a sharp pencil and the consideration of a broad amount of things to decipher whether a type of animal is profitable or not.

highlands 07/08/12 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen W (Post 5998972)
Canada
Now that we have universal healthcare it is the 51st state, right? :)

highlands 07/08/12 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanthomas (Post 6004706)
If you produce and sell 10 bales of hay for $3, you don't have $30 in your pocket. You have $30 minus what it cost you to make the hay. Let's say it costs you $1 a bale to make, then after you sell 10 bales you only have $20 in your pocket, not $30.

It's a form of arbitrage. By feeding your hay to your own animals, you're essentially buying it from yourself for $2 a bale (the profit you could have made off of it) instead of buying it from someone else for $3 a bale.
No, it doesn't work that way in reality. It isn't worth $3/bale until you get the cash in hand and even then you didn't really get $3.

I hear a lot of people mouthing the phrase above but it is simply wrong. That doesn't take into account the friction in the selling system, the sales taxes where they apply, transportation, etc.

More over, I'm willing to use lower grade things to feed my chickens, etc that are left over from my production which I can't sell or aren't worth selling as seconds.

We do vertical integration. It is much better to produce something for ourselves, to do the work ourselves, than to pay someone else if at all possible.

highlands 07/08/12 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolT (Post 5997509)
Highlands, your house would be about 16.5x15 to be that footage. How many people live in it? Not saying it's impossible, 4 of us lived in an 8x10 space for months. I just have to wonder if it dropped a number on you?
There are five humans, two ferrets and dogs that come in to visit occasionally. Plus sometimes a chick or piglet that needs care.

We spend most of our time outdoors so the small 252 sq-ft cottage is fine. Indoors is for sleeping, reading, eating, computer use, etc. Our cottage is roughly a 20'x13' footprint. You can see it here:

Cottage | Sugar Mountain Farm

Here is a not entirely accurate older floor plan:

Tractor Back – North Walls Rising | Sugar Mountain Farm

Someday I'll get around to putting up an up-to-date layout but you can see it better in the photos that are in the various articles at the first link. Check out the bedroom ceiling:

Master Bedroom Inlayed Ceiling | Sugar Mountain Farm

We have a small loft area in the front and a small attic in the back. Full bathroom with bathtub and shower. Full kitchen but small. The central area is open to the 11' high barrel vault ceiling. It is very quiet because I designed it to soak up sound using the same sorts of acoustic principles as used for concert halls. This way all five of use can be inside and the house is still very quiet.

Total cost of construction was about $7K. There's more to do, someday, but it is lovely as is, far, far better than the old farm house further down the hill which was impossible to keep warm, repaired or clean. We've been living here gradually since 2006 with an official move in date of 2007 and loving every day of it.

Cheers,

-Walter
Sugar Mountain
in Vermont

Hexe 07/08/12 12:32 PM
I'm not sure if the discussion that's ensued here still pertains to the original question. The question was what the most profitable animal on the farm is. Unless I'm reading it wrong, there is no mention of full-time or part-time farming, homesteading, weekend-farming, etc.
This means a different answers from different people. Location (close to a major city or rural?), rainfall and the land (flat, rocky, forest or pasture? acreage?) used are factors. Working a full-time job or having a stay-at-home parent will also figure in this.

So - here it goes: both my husband and I work full-time, but we have 25 acres and wanted to use it for something other than a) mow it twice a year or b) not mow it and watch the forest take back over. Our solution was cattle for grazing the pastures, they also decimate the brush that's trying to taking over said pastures. They are easy to fence (2-wire electric) and don't need to be pampered (like highland's pigs) - they stay outside all year round (they have shelter for bad weather but hardly every use it).They are hardy and big enough to manage the deep snow we get during winter and because of the ability to stay outdoors I don't have to clean stalls/barns, buy bedding, need a yard for the winter or spread manure (they do that themselves...), also there is no pressure from predators on the calfs, unlike kids or lambs. The hay they need in winter is fed out on different spots in the pastures, which re-seeds and fertilizes the pasture and keeps it "new". We sell beef by the half side or an occasional calf. This pays for the hay I need in the winter and our hormone- and antibotic free, humanely raised beef that's processed locally. originally wavered between goats, sheep or cattle, but the added expense for additional fencing, poss. shearing and winter-quarters made the decision for me. I might be making more money on the goats or sheep, but I also would have had to invest more on infrastructure. Now, that being said, I am still interested in adding an additional species to graze with the cattle and may be adding either to our farm. It IS a learning experience, what works stays and the ones that don't work out go.

Broilers have worked out well for us as well. I raise several batches in spring/summer/fall and keep them in electric netting on freshly grazed pasture - which they fertilize with the plentiful manure they produce (again - no time spent in cleaning barns or buying bedding). They are easy to sell and there is no breeding stock to be taken care off in winter.

I kept pasture based rabbits for several years as well, but they proved to be too much work for us. They were definetely profitable (sales from breeding stock, sale as raw-based diets for dogs and for our own use). I miss them most for their manure - that stuff was AWESOME!!! Anything and everything grew from that, wether it was used in the garden or spread on pasture.

I guess that if I had to make my living of our land, the whole set-up would have to be changed. Our goal is not so much to make everything as profitable as it possible can be, but to integrate enough to make it somewhat profitable AND easy to deal with in maintenance, infrastructure and upkeep.

Hope this helps.

fantasymaker 07/08/12 07:18 PM
The smaller the scale the more special you want to be.
If you were custom building cars you would build Lamborghini's not fiestas.
If you can only raise 2 animal units on your farm( cow equivalents)
Id rather spread the risk with8 sheep than two cows.
If I could only raise 8 sheep you better believe the would be the TOP of the line registered most expensive rarest ones I could.

Allen W 07/08/12 08:18 PM
Hexe

You make a good point about what you are doing has to be workable for you and your recourses as well as profitable.

ET1 SS 07/08/12 08:34 PM
We have had hogs before, always kept them in small areas with a stall and fed them grain and table scraps. The meat from them has been good, and my wife's math seems to tell the story that per pound the price beat store-prices.

We have never done free-range hogs before. This year we are giving that a try. After feeding our five hogs grain all winter, I was really concerned over how much these things eat per day. [five hogs can easily eat 50 pounds of corn a day]

So far, I have been whacking down weeds to clear a couple foot wide path to allow me to string electric fence in our forest. Our hogs seem to totally respect the electric fence, and after a month have not gotten out once yet.

I feed them a dozen eggs each day [along with ringing a bell to keep them trained to always come to the bell]. The eggs are from our chickens, and I only give them the bad eggs I have candled so the eggs are garbage anyway. But the hogs love them.

From their size, they should be just slightly over 200 pound each now. My feed bill has dropped to nothing.

They eat birch, alder, beech, fern, raspberry thicket and swamp grass.



Of course next winter any of these hogs I keep will be grain fed again, and it will get expensive. But for summer their feed bill is low.

We have one boar and four sows. I hope to get piglets soon, which will counter the feed bill.

moorefarm 07/08/12 08:41 PM
The quail
You can sell eggs chicks and birds
He breeds at 7 weeks and ready to eat at 6 weeks.
Only need about a 4X8 platform and you can raise hundreds.

ryanthomas 07/08/12 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlands (Post 6005775)
No, it doesn't work that way in reality. It isn't worth $3/bale until you get the cash in hand and even then you didn't really get $3.

I hear a lot of people mouthing the phrase above but it is simply wrong. That doesn't take into account the friction in the selling system, the sales taxes where they apply, transportation, etc.
I think I worded that poorly, because I thought I was saying something pretty much along the same lines. I don't know...I've confused myself on this one.

rusticfarmer 09/26/13 10:41 PM
We have lost money on meat goats, milk goats, emu, rabbits, pheasants, and quail. They were all fun to raise but not profit for us. Then we did well with pigs but we could only keep enough to eat our produce waste. Do well on meat sheep also. I help a lady with her sheep trimming hooves. She in turn gives me lambs that were rejected or trouble for her. I take them to a neighbors ground that is unused and they grow off of 100% pasture all summer. I sell them by fall. Haven't figured out profit but I don't think I really have more than $30-$50 in to them till I sell them.

Chickens do well for us also we just sprout seeds to feed them and they get produce waste from the farm and our green houses. On occasion we get free organic feed from a farmer and we use it to supplement the sprouts.

We learned when we go into anything just trying to make profit it fails. We only do what we love now and we make a few dollars from time to time.

Rectifier 09/26/13 11:50 PM
We don't have our livestock yet, buying next year but our neighbours do well on both cattle and meat sheep. We know a guy in his 80s just down the road who has been big into everything and seen it all. He now uses his hog barns as shelters for his sheep. Said the hogs were his biggest mistake ever and he got back into sheep to pay off the losses, and he just sells to a big processor for market rates, not even to consumers.

We considered cattle but are going sheep. If you lose a lamb, no big deal. If you lose a calf it is huge. Also, sheep have a high twinning rate, so you can build up a flock rapidly while still selling lambs, and have a lot of genetics to choose from. To build up a cow herd you have to keep your calves and that is a lot bigger lost income.

During the BSE scare a lot of cattle ranchers here nearly lost it all and many had to fall back to a homesteading ethic or work in the oil patch. Also know plenty of guys who have been busted up pretty bad by cattle, whereas being caught in a 200 head sheep grain stampede didn't even knock me off my feet... there is value in not getting injured. There is a big ethnic market in the cities around here, an undersupply of lamb, and I already have interest in lambs that are not even in the ewe yet ;) There is even more interest in goats but I hate goats, so no.

Growing all our hay, have lots of pasture and may buy a small amount of feed grain from neighbours just for flushing and creep feed, or trade for hay. Don't buy mixed and pelleted feeds from mills, that is a sure way to go broke.

The debate about hay is not valid to me because I live in the sticks and have a big hayfield. What am I going to do with 150 round bales, ship it all? Once you start paying someone to truck it, you quickly see that it's not a 1 for 1 deal on buying and selling hay. You sell hay for $X and buy hay for $X + shipping... and have to find a buyer who is willing to pay to ship it, or lives in the area. So feeding it to your own livestock is more profitable.

bluebird2o2 10/03/13 07:57 AM
Im moving too Kansas 500 taxes.im paying over $2000 a year on 34 acres with a house and barn.The house is nothing special built in the late seventies and in bad need of updates.

Grumpy old man 10/03/13 08:10 AM
There is so much hay here this year it's rotting in the fields , And there are more than a few offering free hay if you'll come and bale it out . 5 years ago hay was expensive and $65.00 round bales had many dumping their livestock for no money at all . I think chickens would be the most profitable due to land needed to raise them ,but you still have to feed them .

M88A1 03/07/14 10:15 AM
Our hobby farm is part time, on 15 acres. 7 acres in cattle pasture for 4 dexters (1 bull, 3 heifers), 4 acres hay, 1 acres for pigs in smaller 64x64 ft pens american guinnea hogs, 2 dozen chickens for eggs and 3 turkeys. I do usually buy about 6-8 round bales on top of what i get off my land (60/40 hay shares here). I will say our hogs because they reproduce the fastest and deliver more babies, i can have more on smaller space.

haypoint 03/07/14 10:52 AM
General rule of thumb: Whatever takes the most work, brings the most money. Want more profit from your rabbits? Stop feeding pellets and scythe the roadsides for a few hours each day, store up the hay to feed year around.
Want to increase profits on your meat goats? Make them into smoked jerky.
As Highlands said, vertical integration.

hickerbillywife 03/07/14 11:04 AM
I'm glad to hear you say hogs. we recently purchased a pair of red wattle hogs and are expecting our first litter. We have been thinking we make a mistake with them cause the cost of feeding them is getting out of hand. We also have Dexters and I shutter to think what we have spent on hay this winter. It will all be worth it when I get to put some of them on a plate but until then we wait and wonder if we did the right thing. Turkeys and chickens and rabbits as well. I sell puppies to pay for the feed for the animals that will one day feed us. We have often said it is a crazy world when a puppy sells for as much as a cow or a hog.

vanet 03/07/14 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim S. (Post 5978989)
Ever look around and wonder why all the infrastructure in pastured livestock is cattle and not goats, even though goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world and the US does not produce enough to satisfy its own demand?

That's because cows make more money with less work and inputs, and that's why the whole pasture livestock world from farm to sale barn to slaughterhouse is built around them. And this is coming from a guy who has spent 22 years raising beef cattle and 21 years raising goats for the mass meat market. I sold the goat herd and goat equipment last year. I just could not justify all the inputs and the huge labor demands it took anymore. What a change in my lifestyle that made! Wow, I have free time now!

I love and miss goats, but they do not make money as a farmed meat animal when all costs are factored in. That is why so many goat operations are show kid or pet or breeding genetics-oriented. It is also why the typical goat herd is owned for just 3 years on average. To simply farm them like you do cows doesn't pay. I hate to say it, but I have 21 years of experience to prove it.

We love goat meat. Our herd fed us for years. But it comes down to being easier and more profitable to raise cows and buy goats to slaughter and put in the freezer.

If you want profits, buy heifers and a young bull as cheap as you can at auction and start there. These are known by some as "mortgage lifters." Raise them up on grass, breed them and use some of the profits from selling the 6-month-old calves to buy better breeding stock as you go. This is a route many a farmer has taken, and in a decade, you will have fine animals and a good operation.

A 600-pound calf here is almost $800 at the sale barn. It'd take 6 or more goat kids 6-8 months old to equal 1 calf (goat is about $1.50/lb now). So if you sell 10 calves, you'd need at least 60 kids to get the same gross payback. You'll have more inputs in the goats, and more labor cost, if my 21 years of experience counts for anything.
As a cattle rancher, this is the biggest load of bull Ive heard in a while. There are three reasons we raise and eat a lot of beef in this country.

1) Demand we are used to eating beef, so there is a lot higher demand than for sheep or goat.
2) We have a LOT of land that goats just wont survive on. Our ranch is in NM we raise 400 calves to market weight a year on 660 sections. No extra feed at all. 40 goats would starve on the same property. Most of the cattle we consume in this country is raised in 5 states that the land isnt usful for anything else.
3) Labor. cows are able to take care of themselves and there calves for the most part. We loose 4 or 5 a year to odds and ends ie coyotes, wolves, bears, falls etc. The land was homesteaded by my wifes great grandfather and originally it was all sheep in this area. BUT someone had to tend the sheep (and the same would go for goats) 24 7 in order to keep them alive. If they are left for even a week without being tended they are gone. So no in town job (a nesesity with the little amount you make on cows) no vacations no good nights sleep etc. With cows we check on them about once a week, usually when we are fixing fence or doing something else any way. 4 times a year we round up to brand, sell, vaccinate, or move to different pastures.

In Short cows lend themselves to large operations sheep and goat do not.

In a small farm setting that most people are talking about here, demand is the only thing cows have going for them. Chickens, pigs, geese, duck, Turkeys goats and sheep would all be significantly better. In that order.

As a matter of fact my wife and I have made more on a small chicken operation the last few years than the large family cattle Ranch has made.

vanet 03/07/14 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlands (Post 5982247)
Yes, exactly. We slaughter weekly and deliver to stores, restaurants and individuals right away. That way we have very little in the freezer. We deliver fresh. Inventory in the freezer isn't earning money. It costs less to store inventory out in the fields on the hoof and harvest as needed.

We already have this Just-in-Time farming established and have been doing that for years. But right now my wife gets up at 2 am every week and drives down to Mass to deliver the livestock to the slaughterhouse and pickup the meat from last week's batch. Having our own slaughterhouse, butcher shop and smokehouse will eliminate this long drive as well as saving the cost which is about 36% to 50% of what we make on each pig (depending on smoking, sausage making, etc).




We feed primarily pasture (warm months) and then replace that in the winter with second cut hay that is wrapped round bales lightly fermented. The pigs eat about 400 lbs of hay each per winter. It varies by size, of course. Each sow also uses about 800 lbs over the course of a farrowing between her nest and eating. We also get some lower grade hay for bedding. They eat some of that but prefer the second cut wrapped hay as it is better quality.

We also feed about 1800 gallons of whey a day. That is mostly water but it has a little bit of lysine, an amino-acid they need for good growth. It also provides some calories and co-digests well with the pasture/hay. Dairy complements the pasture well.

We've sometimes raised them totally on pasture but the added dairy brings the growth rate to six months. On solely pasture it is about seven to eight months. We also grow pumpkins and such that are easy for us to produce and make for good fall forage when the pastures wane. See Pigs | Sugar Mountain Farm



We buy no grain. We feed a small amount of bread from a local bakery which we use as a training tool to teach them to walk and load. Since they get so little it is highly appetitive. We get a small amount of boiled barley from a local brew pub. Again, see the link above.




No, and size not an opinion issue either. There is a legal definition of 749 pigs over 50 lbs or 3,000 under 50 lbs being the upper limit for a small farm. We are far below that limit thus we are definitely a small farm.



You make too many assumptions about things you don't know. I didn't inherit it. I bought and paid for it myself. Not to have pasture but to have a buffer between me and neighbors, as I explained. The land is there. Being able to do something with it has no additional cost to the land. If I just wanted pasture I would have bought a lot less. I do make use of what I bought, raising plants, animals and doing forestry, as mentioned. That is logical.



That is the illogic of a banker type thinking and not logical. Where would you put the money? In the stock market and have it dwindle away? In a 401K and have it lose value? In the bank and have inflation eat it up? None of those are wise choices. Study history.

Putting it in land has definitely been the best move. My land value has gone way up from what I paid. If I had to raise money I could sell some, or more likely I would log a section which is a faster way to raise money that lets me keep the land. I farm trees. If you want to talk investments then land is the best. Of course, not just any land and I'm not talking houses which in some places crashed. Be wise.



Yes, precisely. That's me. I would rather be rich in land. I can live on the land. I can grow food on the land. I can cut trees for fuel. I can raise more than I need and sell the extra to pay taxes or buy things. I can't live on stocks and bonds - They're useless paper. I would have to have a lot more extra money to want to squander it on imaginary assets. I'll stick with _real_ estate.



Well, you're wrong, but you have the right to be wrong. I can do it. I am doing it. You sit there saying it can't be done but I do it. I know that I can use just four acres to produce everything we need. I've done that. I expanded what we were using to about 10 acres and was able to earn enough to pay all our costs. Then once I had the techniques down pat I grew our farm larger. We produce all we need. Don't confuse need with want. That's a classic mistake.



That mentality is your problem. Classic Wall Street thinking.



Actually, our kids love it here and want to stay here farming. They love the lifestyle. They know it inside and out, from raising animals to the business side to the chemistry of metals and more. They're involved and a part of it.
Ditto what he said!!

We have been provideing all our needs on less than 10 acres for more than 17 years.

Toga1116 11/09/14 09:49 PM
Interesting thread to read. Lots of good information out there. I've been wondering which way to go with my place...

23 acres up in NE WA. About 8 acres available for hay production, another 10 wooded acres, and the rest of the land for house/5000sq. ft. garden/outbuildings, and a couple acres of pasture. I need a way to make at least $1000/month off that land in addition to growing my own food, milk, and meat. I think the garden is large enough to provide enough vegetables for my family of 4. I have room for a small orchard of apples, cherries, pears, plums....they're in and growing. I "think" I'll only get one cutting of hay...based on what my neighbors tell me and the fact that I can't water it. I'm guesstimating I will get 24,000 lbs of hay from 8 acres in one cutting. I'm probably off on that since I have ZERO experience....all this is purely what I've read.

I don't have any specifics right now because I don't even live on my farm yet. Right now my thoughts are a dozen or so chickens, perhaps a dairy cow, a few goats, maybe a beef cow & calf, and a couple horses. Would like to pasture all of them in the summer and grow enough hay for all in the winter. Would very much appreciate any advice on what livestock to go with or any other ideas for making $1K+/month off my land. I'm sure there's much I don't know about.

texican 11/09/14 10:12 PM
One of my uncles will buy land, any land he can find... especially if it has pasture (good or bad.... he has the equipment to make it 'good'). He fences it, gates it, and stocks it with cattle, and pays it off in five to ten years, just off calf crops. Next year, he'll be 80, and he's still 'looking'.

Neighbor went to the cattle auction yesterday, wanting to get two dozen stocker heifers.... he left without getting anything, as 250lb calves were going for over a grand...

Sure, if you had the land, you could put cattle on it, and pay off your land note in just a few years, with the potential of 1500$ for a yearling.

We raise goats.... they're a money pit. If you don't have good fences, you'll have no goats... if you don't have a good guard dog or animal, you'll soon have no goats.... browse is harder to raise than grass... Same uncle with the land and cattle, also raises hogs and goats.... the goats make nothing, when considering their costs. He keeps several hundred, for brush clearing duties. Goat sales are great, but there are a lot of costs, and it's hard to sell one for more than $125, unless it's registered. We've sold $300 bottle babies, but that market isn't 'guaranteed', like the cattle market.

farmmaid 11/09/14 11:03 PM
Toga1116...........First, make sure that your wife? is on the same page as you!

My thoughts: For YOUR family:
1-12 hens, sell the extra eggs, going rate here is $4.00/doz.
2-a trio of rabbits
3-two milk goats...milk, cheese, meat, sell extra kids
5-skip the horses unless you are knowledgeable to give lessons (extra insurance)
6-barter: get honey for whatever extra you have, offer a baked good once a week for x weeks for a calf to raise (some single farmers are thrilled to get home baked treat)---skip buying a cow
7-raise broilers, we get a 5 pound bird in 7 weeks
8- sell the extra hay (no horses or cows)
9-heat with wood and sell extra
10- garden...can and freeze

Now income each month: I have posted this several times on different forums.

1-Dog Boarding Kennel. Start with 10 kennels at $12-$14 per night per dog. You do the math. We had a kennel for 44 dogs, clean, air conditioned, heated, climate control, full kitchen...lovely. The last year we had the kennel we had 48 days that we were turning people away...that was just 48 days of the year. We were always at least 1/2 full the rest of the year.
2--Dog grooming. Hire a groomer for a % or learn yourself.
3-log your land

................just some suggestions.

Skandi 11/10/14 08:29 AM
In the UK my farming friends tell me that the way to make profit is to "add value" so you never sell strawberries, you sell jam/jelly or you get a stall and sell strawberries and cream at a summer fair. I have one friend, whose family have 300 head of dairy in Scotland, so all winter the cows are in and need to be fed. They could find no way to turn a profit on milk, so they switched to icecream, and wow. what a change that made. Moral seems to be there's no profit in selling fresh, but plenty if you can find the product and get it to market.

Personaly I've just bought 2.4 acres.. we've no intention to make a profit on it really, we don't need the income, but I would love to make enough to not have to feel as if I need a part time job. $200 a month would be fine. (I have already found a market for goat meat, which is RARE here so expensive I don't even have any goats yet!) Of course I could make more than that elsewhere. I'm a oil geologist I can make a LOT more than that by sneezing, but that isn't the point for me :)

Rustaholic 11/10/14 11:40 AM
Well it has been nice to once again read this old topic.

For me I will say most profit has come from 30 Isa brown hens.
30 hens and 30 eggs per day for just over three years.
They were right around 4 1/2 months old when they started laying and for the next three years and six weeks they each gave me one egg per day.
I sold the eggs that we didn't eat for twelve cents per egg.
that money went into a jar. From that jar I bought all of their feed and wood chips for the floor of the hen house and the nest boxes. I also each spring bought weened pigs. I bought all of the pig feed and that egg money also paid over half of the butchering costs for the hogs.
Year one it was four pigs.
Year two it was two pigs
Year three it was three pigs.
So, Those 30 hens paid for nine hogs over the three years I kept them.
Everything I spent to raise the hens and the hogs came from the egg money.
Plus we had all the eggs we wanted.
If I had bought that meat cutting band saw when I had the chance this would have been a lot better. It was $92 to $97 per hog and that butcher shop is gone now. I grew up butchering hogs and steers but I do not want to cut them up with an overgrown hacksaw. When I get my soil in shape to grow the 3-sister gardens I will scrap out a car or two and buy a meat cutting band saw that has a grinder on it.

Oh those hens? I really needed their hen house for storage so I went out there and picked up six of them one at a time. Not one of them had enough meat to be worth butchering them. So I sold them for three bucks per hen. $90 is a lot more than I paid for them so they really were good profit all the way for a small time effort.

stanb999 11/11/14 10:48 AM
Best way to make a million dollars farming??? Start with 2 :thumb:

Go big?
Spend a fortune on equipment and hire 12 hands?
Value added products... Like buying a commercial kitchen?


Ignore the nonsense. If your product doesn't make money at each price point your losing money or doing it wrong.

If it takes raising hay to make feeding your cattle "profitable" you'd be better to just sell the hay, that's where the profit is.
If it takes making jelly from your strawberries to make a profit, You should make a jelly business and leave the growing to others. Their fruit will be cheaper to produce than yours. It already is.
If you have to sell your wholesale produce at retail to make a "profit", your just keeping store. There are much more lucrative ways to do that.

To answer Toga

With so few acres it will be unlikely that you can turn a profit with any large stock without extensive environmental work.

See what the other farms in your area are doing for profit. Emulate it. Note this however. Farming pays approx. 10 dollars an hour. for your 1000 a month, you will require 100 hours of work a month.

FarmboyBill 11/11/14 02:04 PM
I don't know if this has been said or not, but Id imagine, after 5 pages it has been said, maybe more than once.

Some animals grow better, and sell better than others DEPENDING on where there grown and sold.

You youngsters wanting to know what ani

Some of the animals that people have said they did great on, wouldn't sell worth a hoot here in Okla. where I live,

Rabbits don't make anything here in NE Okla, and I imagine its the same for most of the state.

I don't think ive seen a doz sheep here in the 30+yrs ive been here in one herd.

There are MANY goats here, mostly Borhs? I don't see them sell high, but they do sell. Mostly under $100 ea

SOME varities of chickens DO SELL GREAT here, BUT you have to find a BIG sale to sell them at.

Horses don't, for the most part sell worth a hoot here. That tho depends on the amount of hay a good year makes up as opposed to a dry year. There used to be a saying. IOF you go to the livestock auction, take a look at the back of your pk before you leave. You likely got a horse tied to it.

Cows either do good or they do great here, again, depending on the above.

Hay can make you or break you, depending again on the above. IF you raise sorgum sudan grass, as I do, then you have to have a dry year to sell it, or it wont sell. Then, to come out, you have to buy in cows to get rid of it, and then the cows in the spring

Horse hay sells for a fortune here.

Rustaholic 11/11/14 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanb999 (Post 7281151)
Best way to make a million dollars farming??? Start with 2 :thumb:
Thanks Stan, That reminded me of our Michigan State Lottery.
I am not sure how long it lasted but right when they started it they would put the big winners on TV and ask them what they would do with the money.
One older farmer from down state won several million and when they asked him what he was going to do with the money he told them he had a farm and he was about to lose it. He said the farm had used up all of his money and he was way behind so this bit of money would get him out of dept and then he could just keep farming until this is gone too.


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