Creative/eco ways to ease burden on strained septic system?
 

We are attempting to buy a house with a high water table. The septic is under debate. It's perfectly fine, just draining the water a little slowly (if I'm getting the translation right) due to the high water table. The "stones" are the right color, if that makes any sense to you all. However, with a slow draining septic in a high water table area, and a family of 8 living there... Without a new engineered system, we're anticipating problems.

So, we're thinking about alternatives that may help with the slow draining. Maybe a graywater system, trees or other plants that can really suck water, supplementary systems that can be installed that are less expensive, etc. I'd been interested in separating gray water at some time in the future anyway, to conserve water. But, I have no idea what they cost, etc...

We're looking for cost-effectiveness, eco-friendliness, and quick and easiness. We already plan to plant a garden and something of a fruit orchard in the area. Btw, we do not use any harsh chemicals, detergents, etc, that would be harmful to place directly on our garden, nor would we use a garbage disposal, etc.

Suggestions? Links?

Also, if this helps to know to figure our drain on the septic, we currently do approx 3 loads of laundry (top loader but hope to buy HE front loader sometime soon after move) and 2-3 loads of dishes (dishwasher) per day to stay on top of them. We don't all shower/bathe every day, but obviously potty time uses a bit of water. I also hope to install dual flush toilets at some point, or possibly even composting toilets.

Previously the washing machine drained into the sump pump and was just pumped out into the yard. Regulations and lender required they install a stand pipe to drain the washer into the septic. Since we don't use high nitrogen crap in our laundry we're thinking we might just pull it and put it back through the sump... So that could eliminate 30-90 gallons a day from going through the septic.

Greywater system and composting the human waste? No need for septic at all in that case. You don't have to buy fancy expensive composting toilets, it can be as simple as a 5 gal bucket in a plywood box with a seat.
I want to do that here but haven't gotten into the gathering info stage yet - looking forward to the replies.

I'm no expert but with a septic system in a high water area there are times when it isn't going to drain at all. AAMOF there will be times when water will run into the system. I grew up with this as a kid.

Suggestions. Run nothing but your toilets into the tank. Don't flush toilet paper (we do flush the stinky paper) nor tampons. When it rains keep the bathroom door closed and only flush when the odor is just too much for you.

What is the soil texture that your drainfield lines are trenched in?

Do you have a downward slope near the drainfield area?

The reason I ask is that you may want to consider surrounding your drainfield with a tile drainage system to lower the watertable. The trench for the drainage line must built approximately three feet below the elevation of the bottom of your drainfield lines. In the bottom of the drainage trench you'd place perforated pipe that is enveloped in drainage rock....much like a drainfield line. The pipe in the drainage trench must be placed at a slight grade and then daylights out at some lower elevation in the yard. This is necessary so groundwater drains away from the drainfield area.

http://www.cefns.nau.edu/Projects/WD.../TileDrain.jpg

Use a sawdust toilet for liquid waste. It then can be spread in the garden or orchard.

Sounds like you need to add some leaching lines to what is already there, maybe divert your laundry to another system. you might have one of the old cesspool types system,

It probably wouldn't be that hard to divert your shower and sinks to the same sump pit as the washer.

:rock:

How large is your family that you are washing so many dishes and clothes?

I run my washer hose into the laundry room sink and fill 12 gallons of water with each load. These go out to the garden.

**Always go before you come home if you are out.

We are a family of 8. We also cloth diaper and use cloth for things like cleaning messes, instead of paper towel, etc. Also, our washing machine and dishwasher are apartment sized. The washer holds like 4 towels, I am totally serious. It is SO frustrating. When I have my super high capacity HE front loader I hope to do no more than 1-2 loads a day, linens included. And diapers every other day as we do now. However, also hopefully, after we move and the toddler can run around naked outside she will train quickly (as my others have) and CDing will be over this year.

So, let's say we put in a graywater system. With the already very wet land already, what can we plant to make it far less wet (zone 5)? All I've ever heard is weeping willows, but I've also read they are about the most destructive tree with prolific roots.

Cabin fever said exactly what I was going to suggest soil structure is key with that some soils don't drain even with French drains. If u have a high water table your still putting same amount of water in the ground so if water table is that high u might not gain anything at all. Elevation is also a big factor so if your in the bottom of somewhere or in the lowest spot around there might not be anywhere to drain to. Also if area is that wet how's the basement?

I would certainly divert the greywater out into a field somewhere. I would not put any greywater into the septic system.

Willows are good for evaporating surface water.

A bunch of roots will grow into any septic an greywater an plug them up over time if they are close.

If you have high water table, no matter where you dump the water it will still add to the local water table. I agree with CabinFever about drainage. There's a good old (free) book on the subject (if you can ignore the unscientific part about water witching)
Farm drainage by Henry F. French - Project Gutenberg

Look at your landscape and the type of soil and see if there's a good down-slope or possibility of digging a dry well through the clay layer...

Debate? Who is debating? Bank? You and seller? Who? I'd honestly look to the seller to correct the problem if the price you're paying doesn't reflect the cost of remedying the situation. If price has been adjusted and the financing can happen, then listen to CF; he does this for a living. I'm really not into outhouses though I'm not adverse to sending grey water outside of a septic system.

It's got a "stay dry" system, so it is dry.

I'm not sure of soil composition and angles and whatnot... Seller is elderly in FL and asserts she is unable financially to do anything about the septic. If the county finds that she has to replace it she will not do so (yes, I know she won't be able to sell it then, she'll either rent it again or let it foreclose, apparently) and we will have to move on, forfeiting our $410 inspection fees. :sob:

Not literal debate. Just something we have to think HARD on before we decide if we want to take it on. It sounds like CF's method is difficult and costly. I definitely do not want to pay for that!

I don't know the ins and outs of your negotiations, but let me tell you that we let one property we really liked go because we would have had to replace the current septic with an aerobic system, which was beaucoup $$$. Better be out the inspection fee than be a) fined for having a septic that isn't up to code and b) then having to put in a new system

Mary

forfeit your 410 dollars, be the best money & least that you will spend on this property, with 8 people and high watertable, you will never win the battle . find another piece of real estate. in wisconsin now ,and i am sure in other states soon, it is illeagal to discharge ANY greywater to the ground without going through the septic system . PROTECT YOURS & YOUR NEIGHBORS GROUND WATER .

Florida. High water table. 8 in family. Septic tank.

I've lived in Florida. I've had a few septic systems. I've not had a family of 8.

Nobody here is stepping up to the plate, so I guess it is up to me to be the Dutch Uncle. There is a REAL good chance it ain't goinna work. Wishin' won't make it so.

Where we lived in Florida, most of the time the water table was about 4' down from the surface. Sometimes it was at the surface. That is the way south Florida is. If we had been forced to use septic there, there would have been more poo in the pool than the racoons put there.

Most septic systems are designed around 4 people. You can add more if you pump out more often, but a leach field under stress is going to have problems. It doesn't help that your yard will be flat and during the rainy season, stuff will get spread all over.

My gut reaction is to kiss the $400 goodbye. $400 is CHUMP CHANGE if you have septic issues and get told to put in a mound system - no ifs ands or buts when a county comes in and says to do this.

IF there is a ten foot drop on the land to surface water, maybe I would change my tune. Considering that the highest spot of land in Florida is Mount Trashmore, there are very few areas of the state where that happens.

BTW, what area of Florida are you considering? There are some areas to avoid.

No, sorry, seller now lives in FL. We, and the house, are in MI.

Seller got a septic inspection and he said it's failing only because it's not draining fast enough. We were scheduled to have our inspection the next day, but when we heard this we put it on hold until we heard what was going to happen. After a long weekend of thinking seller's agent tells us that the seller "will do whatever she has to do to get the place sold", so we put our fears to rest and got the inspection done. A week later she's had another septic inspector out and he says the stones are the right color, the slow draining is just because of the high water table. Now she's apparently going to only submit this second report to the county, and they'll probably not say the septic has to be replaced.

So, yeah, we're thinking we're going to have to bail, and we're hardly crying over the inspection money. More that it was our last option in the available houses on the market, so now we're sitting here in the city in our overpriced rental townhome until something else comes on the market. Buying a house SUCKS!

I'm guessing that you need to be in the area because of work or family. If not, there are a lot of markets in the country where you can get your pick of places.

Buying a house can be a problem. Buying a problem house can be much worse.

I dont know what the codes are in your area.... "IF" you can I would run all grey water someplace besides the septic. Avoid plants in the septic field line area... they may suck up some of the excess water.... but their roots will plug the lines tite in short order.

My opinion, from what I've seen here in SW Mi is that if you have a high water table/ swampy area you will have very limited use of the land for any garden or crops or septic or pleasure. Personally, I'd walk away from it and look for something else. I apologize if you think that is rude, but I just feel you'll always have water problems that will disappoint you. That seems to be fundamental in a lot of Michigan.

geo

Michigan codes are some of the most restrictive in the country. Up to the time I quit building houses in 2008 now county in NW michigan would even consider a grey water system of any kind. At one time they would allow a mound drain system in high water areas but then they put everyone near the lakes on holding tanks. I'd try to sneak in a greywater system if I wasn't in a populated area and a composting toilet. Other than that a high water table is not such a curse,.

"Stones are the right color" - What in the world does that mean??? :hrm:

In most states, if an inspector found evidence of a high watertable - meaninng closer than 2 to 3 feet from the bottom of the drainfield trench - he would fail the system. Consequently, I'm not sure why the second inspection is any more positive (for the seller) than the first inspection.

Home | Greywater Action

Read from above site for grey water information.

Don't buy it. There is no way to fix it.

You could put in a $30,000 sand filter system, and even that won't work with a high water table. The water from the septic has to go somewhere, no matter what type of system you have.

never use charmin t p..it will ruin your septic as it does not dissolve..try northern or angel soft..

you should test a piece in a glass of water and it should completely dissolve in seconds..

We just had a new septic system installed a couple weeks ago and we had to trench it like cabin fever mentioned. The trench was not that expensive, 50 inches deep by 15 inches wide and 70 feet long. It catches all ground and surface water before it can get into the septic field. Here is a shot of the field going in, the trench will go through where the guy (County health inspector) in the orange shirt is standing.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h4...a/P4120035.jpg

"O"

I don't know what they mean by the stones either. We're getting the contact info for the inspectors so we can call and get the real deal on what they found straight from the horses' mouths. Hopefully then we can figure it out. Like, how high is the water table? Is it only draining slowly right now because the spring thaw just happened and it's rained 9 days out of 10 all month long? We've only heard what our realtor has said, after he heard it fro the seller's realtor...

We never use Charmin. Hate it. We usually use northern, but since we CD anyway have considered "family cloth." Have to get over the skeeves about adult poop being different than baby poop, first, though... I'm getting there...

English Oliver, would you mind expanding on what "not that expensive" means to you? Because we're now looking at halving the input with composting toilets, but that'll be 3-4 grand, then possibly a graywater system that it sounds like maybe we'll have to plan and implement ourselves because MI sucks, plus the renovations we were actually planning to do...

I can tell you that it has an absolutely gorgeous lawn. Yes, almost every square inch of the 2.7 acres is lawn! What a waste. But, it's not clumpy and marsh-grass-like. It's really pretty grass. Since I don't know a lot about grass I can't say more, but would that maybe mean that the heavy rains (and it's probably clay soil) have more to do with the wet ground than anything else? Would my extension office be able to come out and tell me what the ground is like and how to make it better?

My whole system, tank, field, and bypass trench, was $4500.. The trench was only $500. of the total and half of that was for the limestone gravel in the trench.

"O"

If you send me a PM with the address of the property, I can tell you what the soil is like. And, if your PM includes your email address, I will send you the soil map and soil descriptions.

Otherwise, you might be able to determine it yourself by using Web Soil Survey - Home

Now there is a good deal. As I understand it CF really knows his er... Stuff.

So now you have spent your own money for inspections. Not too good. Did anybody open the system? Like removing a lid to take a look inside the septic tank. I have seen many "systems" that were not there. Often old timers would just bury a barrel, and punch holes in it with the pointed end of a pick, and call this a system. Years later it is a problem.

If the owner is going to let the property go to foreclosure, something is wrong that is not being discussed.

You might consider becoming a squatter for a few years (often foreclosures of questionable property can take a long time), The lender would rather have an occupied house with a non-performing note than the house itself sitting empty.:coffee:

Michigan seems to have a well-kept dirty little secret about the water table and how it it makes homesteading--and buying property--different from most other areas. I've lived here for nearly thirty years, and I always marvel at the type of soil and the water table problem that exists here in so many places. And the realtors don't help, either--it is really buyer beware when looking at most of the land for sale. Water table, drainage, and soil type is the most important thing to look at whenever you look at any land here--especially if you hope to homestead it. Your soil becomes your bank account........

The entire state of Michigan sat underneath a moving glacier, a mile thick, for centuries. That ice ground the rocks into fine sand and gravel--and it moved it around willy-nilly. When the ice melted, the land surface became the willy-nilly surface it is today, with many deep and not so deep low lying lakebeds surrounded by higher levels of glacial "till" or ridges which ramble across the countryside, blocking and creating convoluted drainage routes.. Those lakebeds have eventually filled with dead aquatic vegetation and silt, and this fourteen thousand year long process of eutrophication has created thousands of boggy places, rambling for miles before reaching any actual waterways to allow them to drain. Most of those former marsh bog areas have filled in just enough, due to the cycle of growth and death each year, to allow "some" human settlement, but those areas usually drain so poorly that the land should be considered marginal, at best--especially when it comes to septic systems, planting orchards, turning soil for gardens, or having livestock with sharp hooves pasture on them. Even the woodlot areas are usually so boggy that you can't get equipment into them to haul the logs out without getting stuck.

What has happened that people have built houses on the existing higher spots, then the county sanitation departments have allowed mounded septic systems that will allow about a five foot level before the effluent reaches the groundwater--in average times. Many times these open spots are about a couple of acres, give or take, before the ground level recedes back into the underwater/bog area--sort of like the surface of a golf ball or orange, high and low. Yes, they make fine looking lawn areas, but as one reaches the outer limits of the area, the lawnmower will make black wheel tracks during the rainy season. Sometimes, even kids walking on it will squish up the black silt underneath--not to mention what a cow or pig or horse would do..

Two other things complicate, no, three, the situation. The higher elevations will be made up of mostly pure sand, like a beach front, with little or no vegetation at all. This land should be avoided, too, since there is no organic content for plants to grow, and no way to hold moisture. There is also hidden clay, and therefore, you can get a real surprise if you buy land without taking along a post hole digger and doing some real probing. The third problem, is that even though each county has an age old system of drains, there is very little actual money raised through taxation to keep them cleaned out and free of trees and growth. And the drainage is complicated enough with the spongey silt bogs actually retaining water nearly year round. Just about anywhere in this county, the drainage ditches will have standing, not flowing, water in them year long.

This the stuff the realtors won't tell you. A few years ago, when we had about a three year dry spell, you wouldn't believe the lowlands that went up for sale. But welcome to Michigan. Putting a family of eight on a septic that was marginal for even maybe a family of three is just asking for a sad disappointment, in my opinion. But at least I hope others will consider it the pertinent poop on the Michigan terrain.

geo

Codes in Michigan do not allow graywater to be discharged without going through the septic system. Graywater will contain pathogens just like blackwater does. Michigan does not have a statewide septic code; each county or health department has their own version so the best thing you can do is find out what the standards are for the area you're in.

When you have a high water table, the soil in that area is already saturated. You can't force more into it. You say inspectors have looked at it; from where? Most home inspectors can't tell a septic tank from a hole in the ground, and they do not have the training or expertise to evaluate a septic system. Have you contacted the local health department? They will have records and be able to let you know if the existing system was installed correctly, and how old it it. "Color of the stone" is referring to looking at the stone in the trenches and determining if there is significant sludge build up. Normally there will be some mild discoloration in a functioning system; heavy black sludge in a failing system; if the stone is wet but clean looking it could be the water table has wicked up into the sand. I've seen it wick as high as 28" above grade during wet seasons of the year, where the sand mound built for the above grade leach field was already saturated prior to any discharge from the home.

The upshot is, you will never be happy living with a half-dead, saturated septic system. Every rain event, snow melt, holiday with extra people in the house, even the extra jar washing during canning season, will be miserable. Get the system checked by the health department, and get it replaced or the cost of the property reduced to compensate. CF has a good idea for lowering the water table, but when you're fighting mother nature she will often bite you in the butt.

Here you have to have an inspector analyze the soil before you can install a septic. The inspector core bores a 3" hole 60" deep and lists the type of soil layers. He will then core bore a half dozen 1" holes 60" deep over the field area to see if the area is similar throughout the field. The county health inspector will then design the septic system you need to install. You will not be able to get a standard system on any ground that has ever been filled in or had any disturbance from heavy equipment. A standard septic system is fairly reasonable but any deviation will run the price up drastically. You will not be able to install your system once a permit is issued until the moisture content of the ground reaches a certain level which around here is usually after June 1st. I was lucky, my ground tested out way early and I got the first system installed this year in the county.

"O"