Trade School VS College

[QUOTE=HermitJohn;5787302]I just find the focus on extreme wealth to be so shallow. That is the be all and end all? Education in itself - and I don't just mean advance University degrees but all education and training - should be a goal in itself.

Whatever you choose to do should fulfill you and not just be a way to earn money. A teacher making $60,000 a year can have just as satisfying a life as a multi-millionaire. Our friend is a plumber and he makes well over 6 figures working for someone else and he loves his job. Personally that would not be for me but then my job would drive him crazy.

Everyone in my husband's family has a university education. They are all employed and happy in their careers. His niece has a teaching degree and completed a master carpentry apprenticeship in Europe. She has happily been a highschool carpentry teacher for 18 years. His oldest great-nephew just started at a trade school to become an electrician. No one is going to kick him out of the family because he did not want to go to University. The other great-nephew is going to college be a civil engineering technologist.

I'm not sure that's a really marketable position. You'd probably do better as a CNA. They get phlebotomy training. Hospitals and doctor offices use nurses and CNAs to take blood. Blood banks/Red Cross use them but here the jobs are few and far between and pay very little.

I'm afraid that the nursing shortage is headed quite rapidly towards a nursing glut. People need to be aware of things like this. For a while physical therapists were in dire need. When I went back to nursing school, I thought of becoming a PT. When I spoke to a local school about job opportunities I asked how many students were getting jobs and was told, "Well, some." Within a year or so after receiving my BSN PTs were desperately needed.

A friend of mine had a son go to a trade school to become a mechanic. He ended up with educational debt and no job. We need to encourage our children to be smart no matter which way they go, education or no.

Watch the market. Hot right now degrees will sooner or later end up with a lot of graduates who cannot find a job.

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Moms don't look at things like normal people.
-----DD

[QUOTE=emdeengee;5787468]I have a bachelors degree from back when you could do it on pay as you go, no debt. Never used it. No interest in chasing massive wealth, its just totally uninteresting to me. Was only explaining Stan999's point. And that if you are chasing mega wealth, college probably isnt going to get you there.

I am happy with rural poverty, warm cabin in the woods with no debts owed to anybody, though I dont appreciate the massive inflation and price gouging that wants to push people into indentured servitude to get health care or even to buy a small piece of land.

Debt is voluntary indentured servitude, especially these educational loans that cant be discharged through bankruptcy no matter what the circumstances. Such deals with the devil will hang over your head until the day you die if world changes to point where you never have opportunity at a job that can support the payments. But for those that are ok with ethereal promise of a life of comfortable indentured servitude, more power to them. I just hope they think seriously before signing away their freedom on the dotted line. Just cause something is in demand today, doesnt mean it will continue to be. Either the job becomes technologically obsolete or the corporations direct their pet office holder politicians to open the flood gates to those that will work much cheaper and the job becomes menial in way of compensation. Or job gets exported. Or your health deteriorates. Or ???

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

I can agree with you in someways, but I dissagree in otherways. When I grew up girls only had two jobs, Teacher or Accountant. Yes I was a good Accountant but I hated it. Poor choice on my part, now if I had choose what I wanted to do it was to be a Botanist. I finally went there 20 years later and I love my job, that is when I have a job. Yes, maybe Music, Art and other degrees can be hard to find a job, do to State funding and the ecomomy, but that dosen't mean we don't need them.

Speaking as a college professor, I have to say that it's really going to depend entirely on the person. Some people are better suited for college, and some for trade school. I've seen way too many aimless students coming through my classes who just should not be there, and most of the classes I teach are the basic ones like ENGL 101. Maura had really good advice with the community college suggestion--I think there would be many fewer unsuited students in college if the uncertain ones tried community college or another path to an associates degree (I teach for a good, inexpensive online college) first.

I do want to add one thing: don't fall prey to the idea that somehow college does not teach any sort of useful skills. The basic classes, particularly, help students develop important critical thinking and communication skills, if they bother to pay attention (which many don't, because clearly 100-level courses couldn't have anything important to teach ). Fortunately, these are also the courses that you can usually get at the associate's level, so you do not have to go to a 4-year college to get them.

There does seem to be this idea in American culture that's been getting worse and worse that somehow college leads to money and money leads to happiness. I think most of us here know that last is utter BS. I wish more people would figure this out and just start looking for the path that will let them be comfortable and generally satisfied with their lives, instead of always looking to get more, more, more . . .

[QUOTE=HermitJohn;5787614]I happen to agree with you on debt being servitude but how many people will happily go into servitude to buy a car or a house or big screen TV or a big wedding or vacation and yet resent paying for their education? They will pay $400 a month for a car but whine about paying their student loans. People today want what they want when they want it and that includes education. You don't have to do it all at once. You can study and work. But if you take a loan it is a finacial commitment. No one forces anyone to take a loan. And as for jobs or careers becoming obsolete or overcrowded. That has always been the way of the world as it advances and changes and there is nothing to stop a person from changing as well or from being the cream that rises to the top. Both my husband and I changed careers in our early 40s and that meant going back to school.

Those are also deals with devil, but such unsecured debt is subject to bankruptcy court. It doesnt hang over your head forever.

Sorry but when you cant work your way through state 4 year college without debt, then there is a big problem with society. Signing your life away on a bet is stupid. Making a decision when you are 18 that you will be stuck with the rest of your life is stupid.

Buying any consumer goods with debt is stupid. If you are young and healthy and want to gamble on debt to start and run a buisiness, well.... At least hire a lawyer so the buisiness owns the debt not you personally.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

So, the oilfield provided an education of sorts...along with pay.

My son needs a better idea of what he wants to do with his life. One way or the other, I believe a stint in the oilfield will help him figure it out.

He is only 19...so he is probably ahead of the curve I was on at that age!

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Taxes, in excess of what are needed to fulfill the constitutionally authorized activity of government, are theft

I guess that is where we part ways on the subject of debt. I believe all debt is "secured" debt. It is guaranteed by your word. If you take out a loan it SHOULD hang over your head until you pay it off. I think people get away with debt much too easily now-a-days.

When big banks and other corporations/buisinesses play by those rules then I will. Sorry, but when its to their advantage they have no problem using bankruptcy or letting default conditions of the debt contract come into play.

I have NO debt, simply dont believe in debt, IT IS A BIG GAMBLE, nothing less, nothing more.

But if I had debt to a bank that has no problem using bankruptcy or default to gain advantage, why should I tie one hand behind my back and play by different rules. Debt is a legal contract with a buisiness, not anything more. The bank/corporation is NOT YOUR FRIEND, it is in buisiness to make profit anyway it can and has no compunction of screwing you over royally if possible. Thus the "fine print" in lot consumer loan contracts. A contract that lays out what happens if one party defaults. Bankruptcy is a law that can supercede the contract. Adding personal moral obligations not in the contract is foolish, cause the bank sure isnt going to do the same. Nor the government.

Now if you are in a debt relationship with a friend or family member making you a personal loan as a favor, not a for profit buisiness venture, then there is moral obligation. Leaving a friend who made a loan to you as a favor, hanging high and dry in such an arrangement is really evil. And the obligation should continue until paid. Interestingly people tend to screw over family/friends in such arrangements far more often than banks. Guess cause they know the family member isnt coming after them over it.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

They both do. When I graduated high school I didn't tell my parents I had saved up enough money on my own to cover my first years tuition at the technical school/junior college near our home from my after school job until my father asked me which 4 year university I wanted to attend.

I told him that since I had two years high school tech training completed that at the tech/jr college I could get my freshman and sophmore years of a pre=engineering major and industrial electronics minor with diploma potential and I could get myself a job on the diploma with a company that offered tuition reimbursment and get my 4 year degree in 5 to 8 years while also bringing home a paycheck and he bought my pitch ( I was actually only trying to keep myself off The Plaines until my gf graduated and we could go to the university together)

Even though gf parent split us up , I got my diploma, pre-engineering credits and job that turned into a 25 year career.

Two years state tech/vocational school or junior college in a field with 25 to 30 years future demand potential and anyone can start writing their career ticket.

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"I didn't have time to slay the dragon. It's on my To Do list!"

I came from an academic family with all of the related pressures to follow likewise (and would have had 4 years of college paid for) but being hard headed and an adventurous sort I joined the Marine Corps on my 17th birthday and never looked back. I did end up getting a 4 year business degree but like the professor said in an earlier post, the main value in that was that it taught me critical thinking skills and opened my world to new interests that have been life long pleasures.

But something to think about, I was fortunate to be able to retire early with enough money and income to live well but my body is pretty well worn out and broken. Some of those trades that look so promising at 23 or 24 can put you into a corner when you get older if you have no other education...just something to think about.

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www.salmonslayer-simplelife.blogspot.com

Sorry to say it... But to most in our society.. Money = Success.


As for the personal growth aspect. Sure Collage teaches most young minds full of mush to...
Have lots of "free" sex.
Drink lots of booze.
Party like mad.
Yep, It's truly mind blowing. In a good way? You could be a "world" traveler..
Certain coastal towns in Mexico come to mind.


Education for it's sake is a noble endeavor. But going into debt for a hobby or interest is plain stupid and is rather not the point for most collage attendees. People go to collage to get a "good" job and make a lot of money. They just are never taught math. Then they defend their bad decision making by suggesting it's good for "other reasons"... When even they were sold collage as a path for making money.

Gathering money and wealth is about saving. Not about earning. Never has been; Never will be. Being jealous of those who are savers and thus wealth builders... Shows the attendance and aptitude of the individual in the University of RL. Some get it. Some don't.


P.S.
Your Great-Nephew Doesn't need a degree...
He needs field experience. Degree or not he should be working for a firm. Make sure he chooses a specialty... High steel, Caissons, Dams and impoundments, Bridge Inspection... Avoid "enviromental" There are a ton of guys not working or just stuck in low level positions. (I'm a Precast/Prestressed bridge inspector). The key in this field is to be heavily certified in your expertise. Don't just be a soils guy or field tech... The pay is OK but not even close to what you could make. For higher level Certifications they can't be had in School. Work experience is required to even take the tests. The company's will train him. They will pay for the courses and certifications he needs. If they aren't forth coming with the opportunities for advancement and certifications. Move on. Some firms only do the low end work... and the pay demonstrates it.

That was about the age I tried it.
It did give me a way to put back a little money and it sure was an incentive to get an education.
I had several cousins who stuck with it. Two of them ended up with very good jobs. One was offshore and the other overseas.

So if your life goal is to impress others, this is definitely the route to take. Tends to lead to a very empty life. If the Buddhists got it right, this means you get a do-over, again and again, until you figure out its a dead end and move further along. Or more likely you just end up dead meat and unfulfilled.

However taking a vow of poverty and still expecting to do more than barely survive under a bridge or in a dumpster can be equally unrewarding.

Life is a compromise. Usually living it requires regular income or significant savings to do much more than just survive. But making it the only life goal doesnt cut it either. Rich and unfulfilled doesnt cut it either. The rich just have a more comfortable prison than the destitute, but its still a prison. Owning a piece of land to work used to be a work around option. Anymore, land tends to be priced to where you are back to indentured servitude to buy it and by time you have it paid for and the time to spend working with it, you arent able to do anything with it.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

I agree with you. The point of my postings are about school not being the path to success many believe it is. Mostly it's the path of servitude.

The one thing that cannot be taken away is an earned degree from a good college. I do not have one and was too busy once I went to work to get one. I will share this....It stinks to have to prove yourself and justify the level of compensation you are receiving over and over in industry each time the top management turns over. Persons with degrees seem not to have this issue.

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

Where on earth are you getting your information?
Girls Gone Wild videos?!?!


I went to college and didn't do any of that stuff. Nor did my friends.
Though now that I'm thinking about it, we did travel to Cheyenne one summer for Frontier Days...

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~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

I went to college and did all of that and quite a bit more.

I play by my rules - my code of conduct. I cannot control how others play. One rule is to understand EXACTLY what I am signing up for on any given contract. If I sign a mortgage that costs me $1500 a month for the first 3 years and then $2500 a month for the next 3 years then it is my responsibility to pay - to prepare for the future. People do not prepare for emergencies - they think their credit cards and lines of credit are their emergency fund. If I take a student loan and the interest on it is based on prime plus a variable percentage then I know that I will have to be prepared for ups and downs. If you cannot understand what you are signing then don't sign and don't take the money.

For most people when a financial disaster hits it usually comes with some warning or a breathing space but people don't react quickly enough. They continue to make bad choices and try to patch the situation instead of making some really hard choices. And when people default they don't just hurt the corporation or bank or government - they hurt all of us because those who have to absorb the loss will pass it on to the rest of us.