Anybody made biodiesel?

Swampdweller · #21 03/24/04, 07:16 PM

65284 makes some very good points.
For those headache gluttons that drive a truck over the road, the tax issues and the dependaility issues are a very real concern, and truckers need less...a lot less...to worry about, not more.
That said, bio-diesel, as usual, is seemingly the "approved" alternative fuel being allowed to manifest itself in today's world of complete and intrusive control. There are much simpler, or maybe just cheaper, solutions to high-priced fuel.
I have the use of six larger diesel engines. I run a blend of used motor oil, used hydraulic oil, heating oil (#3 diesel), gasoline, kerosene, actual diesel fuel (#1 or #2) automatic transmission fluid, petroleum based paint thinner, etc., ad infinitum, in each of them.
I have three things going for me in this situation.
1. None of the engines power licensed vehicles.
2. I am rapidly learning alot about diesels and how to maintain them.
3. By trial and inexpensive error, I've stumbled across the means to filter the blended fuels and how to keep viscosity of the fuels compatible with outdoor temperatures.
If anyone is in the least bit interested in what I'm doing in this field, I'd be glad to share.

Swampdweller

p.s....if I did run a truck over the road, and the tax issue was not, I'd definitely run this junk in the engine. Not only is it much cheaper, but a tank of heavier fuel gives better mileage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65284

My truck is an very large investment that I depend on to perform well at all times. I have a dread of breaking down, especially away from home, where you are even more at the mercy of unfamiliar/dishonest mechanics who often seem quite willing to take advantage of someone in a bad situation. I would NEVER chance put any of this junk into my truck, diesel engines are not only a large initial expense they are also horribly expensive to have repaired. Has anyone researched the possible consequences of driving on public roadways with this untaxed fuel? In Missouri there is a road use tax of about forty cents per gallon on diesel, and if you are caught burning red diesel on the road you will pay a huge fine and face possible confiscation of the vehicle. This tax is also collected on propane used as motor fuel so I suspect there would be taxes due on this too, it wouldn't be worth it to me to have to constantly worry about getting caught, the other considerations aside. When everything is factored in how long would it take to break even? Taxes, the cost of a still, or which ever method is used, chemicals needed, the time and expense of collecting used cooking oil, which you would have to do on a regular basis not just when you wanted some, the possibly toxic waste disposal problems, and very real probability of damaging an engine if a bad batch was cooked up just isn't worth it. The folks peddling this equipment/info paint a very bright picture, but I suspect they are less than candid about the true costs and possible ramifications of doing this.

Swampdweller · #22 03/24/04, 07:22 PM

The tax is not on the fuel...it is on the commercial use of the highways. All licensed "drivers" are presumed by the state to be driving for hire, in commerce. Rebutting this presumption in court is a full time job. If you are a licensed driver operating a licensed motor vehicle on the public highways, you are liable for the fuel tax....
I do my running to town in a 1967 John Deere 4020 diesel for just this reason.....among others....and make my own fuel.

Swampdweller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The very idea of paying taxes on fuel that you make yourself is ridiculous. Taxes on commercially available fuel make sense because we have to deal with the environmental impact of refineries, provide the infrastructure that allows fuel to get from point A to point B, provide a legal system that protects property and enables the flow of capital that allows the energy industry to exist. Plus over a billion dollars a week in mideast defense spending that is ultimately for the purpose of keeping the oil flowing. These are all very good reasons for taxing commercial fuel, but none of them apply to diesel fuel that you make yourself.

When you fix your own truck do you volunteer a payroll tax to the state for the work that you did? Of course not. Economic transactions can be morally taxed, but not something that you do or make solely for yourself. Anyway, I wouldn't let some idiotic tax like that stop me from making my own fuel if I was otherwise inclined to do it.

Swampdweller · #23 03/24/04, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Any way you slice it, it is going to be a major inconvenience to make your own fuel. Time is money, and most of us don't have enough of either. Spending money on a still to spend time making fuel is like shooting yourself in both feet. If you spend just two hours per week making fuel, thats over 100 hours per year or the equivalent of 2.5 work weeks.

Granted, making your own fuel may be fun the first few times, but its not an enjoyable task like gardening, fishing or building furniture, its a chore. A stinky, toxic, potentially dangerous and time consuming chore.

You can always tell how practical, convenient and enjoyable something is by how widely its used.

Yup. Just like the majority is ALWAYS right. Couldn't agree more.

Swamp

#24 03/24/04, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65284

In Missouri there is a road use tax of about forty cents per gallon on diesel, and if you are caught burning red diesel on the road you will pay a huge fine and face possible confiscation of the vehicle.

Not to encourage anyone to do it, but since biodiesel is basically clear and mixes with regular road diesel fuel, how could anyone tell whats in the tank?

Swampdweller · #25 03/24/04, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Not to encourage anyone to do it, but since biodiesel is basically clear and mixes with regular road diesel fuel, how could anyone tell whats in the tank?

Litmus paper.

#26 03/24/04, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swampdweller

Litmus paper.

Ah, right. I forgot about that one.

But on the other hand, how could they tell if it was homemade or commercial biodiesel(if properly made).

Professional drivers might be required to produce bills for fuel to prove it, but the everyday driver?

Swampdweller · #27 03/24/04, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ah, right. I forgot about that one.

But on the other hand, how could they tell if it was homemade or commercial biodiesel(if properly made).

Last I knew.....commercially produced "biodiesel", at least in this area, was 98% regular #2 diesel fuel and 2% soy oil. They make, "promote", and sell it as a bone to the farmers. A dry bone it is.

snoozy · #28 03/24/04, 09:34 PM

Fortunately, we live in a very pro-environment part of the state -- I could be wrong, but I don't think the smokies are going to pull me over 'cause they smell french fries and dip litmus paper in my fuel tank...

"Time is money, and most of us don't have enough of either. Spending money on a still to spend time making fuel is like shooting yourself in both feet. If you spend just two hours per week making fuel, thats over 100 hours per year or the equivalent of 2.5 work weeks."

-----But it's okay to ask soldiers to go and die for petroleum to make the dino-diesel? Hmmnn...

#29 03/25/04, 05:24 AM

Snoozy:

If you think for an instant that you can save a soldier's life by making biodiesel, for God's sake get busy and make a whole refinery full of it. What a crock. Most of the waste grease ends up in animal feed or in soap--it's prime soap making materiel

The people out there are pointing out facts--time is money to most of us, and Swampdweller is on target with his remarks too.

These crackpot home refinery schemes work to a degree but if they were commercially practicable they would be in use.

Gasohol is a fraud--costs more energy to make than it produces. Biodiesel at 2% soy is just what it was called, a sop to farm state congressmen.

Nevertheless, in your case biodiesel may just be cost effective. Good luck with your project.
Ox

snoozy · #30 03/25/04, 09:27 AM

"These crackpot home refinery schemes work to a degree but if they were commercially practicable they would be in use."

------I haven't been talking about setting up a commercial refinery. This is about self-sufficiency. I am looking into it because it may be a better, cheaper fuel which increases my control and independence. Since many people are doing it, whether it is "crackpot" or not should be a judgement for the experienced to pronounce.

Reducing petroleum consumption is an enviromental imperative and a geo-politically wise thing to do.

snoozy · #31 03/25/04, 11:04 AM

How much fuel does a diesel generator use per hour? Just curious. I suppose it would depend on the wattage produced or the wattage drawn (the size or the load)? I don't know anything about generators.

daeve · #32 03/25/04, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snoozy

How much fuel does a diesel generator use per hour? Just curious. I suppose it would depend on the wattage produced or the wattage drawn (the size or the load)? I don't know anything about generators.

Was reading a thread the other day at otherpower that gave some info on a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder diesel (automotive style)engine used to drive 2 100amp alternators and supply hot water to heat a shop. The guy says his setup uses around 5 gallons of vegetable oil per 24 hour period when running at 1500 rpm.

HTH
Dave

#33 03/26/04, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snoozy

"Reducing petroleum consumption is an enviromental imperative and a geo-politically wise thing to do.

We live in a society where we use a 4000lb vehicle to transport a 200lb person and a bag of milk! Obviously, we're not that concerned about the environment. What we are concerned about is the price of fuel... because that means money. Will I drive a little 2-cycle buzz box around? Not on your life... I may get run over by a 4000lb vehicle driven by a 200lb thirsty person and get covered in milk!

Best success in your quest for fuel.

cheers,

#34 03/27/04, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you think for an instant that you can save a soldier's life by making biodiesel, for God's sake get busy and make a whole refinery full of it. What a crock. Most of the waste grease ends up in animal feed or in soap--it's prime soap making materiel

Actually, instead of waste oil, we could have farmers growing crops with high oil content. (Peanuts, Sunflowers, etc). Soybeans do not produce that much oil.

This oil can be converted into biodiesel, and farmers could make some money growing crops.

Its better than your dollars going overseas, and it would help save lives.

Imagine our nation being able to produce all its own fuel, as well as its own food.

Then we will see if the oil nations can grow food in their sandpiles....

rainesridgefarm · #35 03/27/04, 10:10 AM

they have not used waste oil for making soap for over 30 years. It is all detergent based products now. Looking at the geopolitical concerns of this century the more we can save fuel the better off all of us are. I see a few of you talking about the value of your time and I respect that. But the next time you sit in front of the TV for two hours then think about how much your time is worth doing something useless. Making biodiesel is a great idea and I feel if you learn something while doing it you have made good use of your time. This whole board is about topics like this product, so telling other people that they are wasting their time is just wrong. If you feel that your time is so valuable do not do it for the rest of us interested in learning, power to the people. :haha:

snoozy · #36 03/27/04, 10:19 AM

The reason I was asking about the generator usage was I was envisioning a possible emergency system. A lot of people on this forum talk about "when the SHTF" -- or a more likely scenario here in the Pacific NW, when the big earthquake hits -- so I was thinking about how we could make fuel for our vehicle and power at least our wellpump. Trying to figure out how much diesel it would take to produce the electricity needed to make how much biodiesel. I realize that one doesn't really need electricity to make the biodiesel (I don't think so anyway) -- one could just stir it manually -- but it would be easier.

65284 · #37 03/27/04, 10:57 AM

Hey Unregistered, "The very idea of paying taxes on fuel that you make yourself is ridiculous".

I don't like to pay taxes either, but this is a ROAD USE TAX. I have a neighbor that has spent only he knows how much money on chemicals, books, condensors/stills, filters, and contraptions. He has spent untold hours on the internet, in the library, and in his garage tinkering. All with the objective of trying to figure out some way to filter, remove, neutralize, or otherwise make invisible the red dye in farm diesel so he can avoid paying the RUT and burn it in this pickup without fear of getting caught. This same guy bitches, moans, and groans louder than anyone I know about the condition of our roads and other transportation related infrastructure. It can't be both ways, if we are to have decent roads there has to be funds to pay for them. I think the RUT is one of the more fair (if there is such a thing) taxes, the more an individual drives and uses the roads the more fuel they must purchase and pay taxes in proportion to their use of the roads.

Janon · #38 03/27/04, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainesridgefarm

... Making biodiesel is a great idea and I feel if you learn something while doing it you have made good use of your time. This whole board is about topics like this product, so telling other people that they are wasting their time is just wrong. If you feel that your time is so valuable do not do it for the rest of us interested in learning, power to the people. :haha:

I think the naysayers have made some very valid points. I don't believe it is their intention to just state "its a waste of time" without providing the reasons why.

Alternative fuels/energy are indeed alternative for a reason(s). Those reasons may include cost, convenience, complexity, time involved, etc. Yes, this board is about being more self-reliant and trying new things... its also about being practical and using both your time and money wisely. Most importantly, this board is about hearing from all sides. This guy threw the idea of biodiesel out here and received many different viewpoints... it don't get any better than that!

cheers,

#39 03/27/04, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65284

It can't be both ways, if we are to have decent roads there has to be funds to pay for them.

Just a note on taxes and spending.

Its not what gets spent, its what gets wasted.

After all, you don't really believe hammers cost $500 and toilet seats cost a $1000 each, do you? :-)

snoozy · #40 03/27/04, 09:58 PM

I have learned that a 40 gal batch will produce about 4 gal of glycerine as a byproduct. What is glycerine really? I mean chemically? I know that it is a good moisturizer (the pure stuff anyway.) It is all supposed to be biodegradable -- even the biodiesel itself. So if you really screwed up and made a bad batch or a failed batch, you could just dump it on your land and it would compost? When we think of the word "diesel", we think of stinky black petro-evil, so it is hard to imagine dumping anything called diesel on my land... I was surprised to learn that the diesel engine was originally designed by Mr.Diesel to run on vegetable oil (!) and that the engine had to be re-designed to use the petroleum-based stuff.