Anyone taking Diatomaceous Earth?

Bearfootfarm · #**101** 02/08/12, 12:14 PM

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But I agree with you that the placebo effect could be part of it, or all of it in some cases.

It has to be all of it, or the effects could be duplicated in a lab

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No controlled study has been done with DE used in treating joint pain

That's your assumption.
It's most likely false, since DE HAS been approved by the FDA for other uses, none of which happen to be medicinal

Bearfootfarm · #**102** 02/08/12, 12:17 PM

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Unfortunately, it has become the expected response-type from BFF, should you express disagreement

Yes, verifiable facts are my typical response.

terri46355 · #**103** 02/08/12, 12:43 PM

One thought on why there hasn't been more studies on the use of DE as a supplement... There is no profit for Big Pharma in conducting the studies. If it works, no one would buy the drug when they can get a 50 lb bag at the feed store for $25 and treat themselves.

Rogo · #**104** 02/08/12, 01:45 PM

It costs big bucks to have the FDA approve products and to keep the products on the shelves. Products have to sicken / kill a lot of folks before they'll take them off the shelves and even then they sometimes don't. Wanna pay for it? Hope not. I avoid FDA products as much as I can.

ryanthomas · #**105** 02/08/12, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

It has to be all of it, or the effects could be duplicated in a lab

That's your assumption.
It's most likely false, since DE HAS been approved by the FDA for other uses, none of which happen to be medicinal

How could you possibly know that the effects could not be duplicated in a lab when those effects have not been tested in a lab? That's not an assumption. I actually searched clinical trials. I didn't find a single relevant study. If I missed one, feel free to do your own research and show us the FACTS, not your opinion of "it has to be" or "most likely false."

Here's an interesting study I found about DE lowering cholesterol, though. It isn't definitive because there was no placebo group, but this is how research works. Medicine is often inspired by anecdotal evidence to do a study with measurable indicators looking for correlation, and then attempt to confirm causation with placebo-controlled trials.

Quote:

Individuals administered orally 250 mg diatomaceous earth three-times daily during an 8 weeks observation period. Serum concentrations of cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides levels were measured before study entry, every second week during the period of diatomaceous earth intake and 4 weeks after stop of intake. Compared to baseline (285.8 +/- 37.5 mg/dl = 7.40 +/- 0.97 mM) diatomaceous earth intake was associated with a significant reduction of serum cholesterol at any time point, reaching a minimum on week 6 (248.1 mg/dl = 6.43 mM, -13.2% from baseline; p<0.001). Also low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (week 4: p<0.05) and triglycerides levels decreased (week 2: p<0.05, week 4: p<0.01).

[...]

Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9533930

pancho · #**106** 02/08/12, 03:18 PM

(Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings)

How is it possible to believe such a statement? This is an example of why people get wild ideas about a product. It is impossible to say with any certainity what cause any change without something for comparison.
Might as well have said, cloudy days are capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It would be just as true.

"SPIKE" · #**107** 02/08/12, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

(Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings)

How is it possible to believe such a statement? This is an example of why people get wild ideas about a product. It is impossible to say with any certainity what cause any change without something for comparison.
Might as well have said, cloudy days are capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It would be just as true.

Well Pancho, with all due respect don't you think the bolded statement in your above quote was a bit extreme and /or just down right rediculous.
Here is the whole article about cholesterol. It is a study from educated medical poeple. Read the last sentence about "confirming their findings".

Diatomaceous earth lowers blood cholesterol concentrations.
Wachter H, Lechleitner M, Artner-Dworzak E, Hausen A, Jarosch E, Widner B, Patsch J, Pfeiffer K, Fuchs D.
SourceInstitute of Medical Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of Innsbruck, Fritz Pregl Strasse 3, Innsbruck, A-6020, Austria.

Abstract
In this study a potential influence of diatomaceus earth to lower blood cholesterol was investigated. During 12 weeks we monitored serum lipid concentrations in 19 healthy individuals with a history of moderate hypercholesterinemia (9 females, 10 males, aged 35 - 67 years). Individuals administered orally 250 mg diatomaceous earth three-times daily during an 8 weeks observation period. Serum concentrations of cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides levels were measured before study entry, every second week during the period of diatomaceous earth intake and 4 weeks after stop of intake. Compared to baseline (285.8 +/- 37.5 mg/dl = 7.40 +/- 0.97 mM) diatomaceous earth intake was associated with a significant reduction of serum cholesterol at any time point, reaching a minimum on week 6 (248.1 mg/dl = 6.43 mM, -13.2% from baseline; p<0.001). Also low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (week 4: p<0.05) and triglycerides levels decreased (week 2: p<0.05, week 4: p<0.01). Four weeks after intake of diatomaceous earth was stopped, serum cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides still remained low and also the increase of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol became significant (p<0.05). Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings.

PMID:9533930[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

SPIKE

ryanthomas · #**108** 02/08/12, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

(Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings)

How is it possible to believe such a statement? This is an example of why people get wild ideas about a product. It is impossible to say with any certainity what cause any change without something for comparison.
Might as well have said, cloudy days are capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It would be just as true.

It isn't a definitive statement. It's a statement of the findings of the study. That's how science works. You test something and report your findings. And you include the caveat that it hasn't been confirmed by placebo-controlled studies. For the record, there was comparison, though. They took measurements before, during, and after. Choose to believe it or not. That's fine. But it is a scientific study, even if it goes against your opinion.

BillHoo · #**109** 02/08/12, 04:33 PM

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Originally Posted by J.T.M.

I chain smoke 3-4 paks of ciggs. a day ,and I don't have worms therefore.........

Agreed! And I find tobacco juice to be a miracle killer of garden slugs and other pests, yet it's safe for human use!

After a good smoke, I can challenge anyone to a run around the block!

It's also amazin how tobacco clarifies and sharpens the mind!

BillHoo · #**110** 02/08/12, 04:59 PM

I like to check sources.

** No such place as Bunker Farms in Mesa, AZ

** I found someone else was checking the same field reports on the internet:

"Just about anywhere you go on the web theres references made to studies done by a M.F. Petty DVM. I tried to find these published papers to no avail.I then tried to research DR.Petty, As far as the Alabama Veterinarian assoc. is concerned there has never been an M.F. Petty liscensed,neither is there anyone of that name liscensed with the AVMA."
http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/v...p/t-18081.html

** No such place as Four Winds Farm in Orlando, FLA

** No such person or papers published by C. S. Mangen, DVM (other than these suspect field reports)

** No such place as Midland Animal clinic, Midland TX. There is a Midland Animal Center, but no staff ever worked there by name of O.C. Collins DVM

I don't have time to go chasing after the rest of these ghosts. So I will rest my case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogo

All you naysayers with your myths can skip this message. For those who have written to me, I thought I'd include these field reports so all can see them:

FIELD REPORT - FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS
EARTH (DE) TO DAIRY COWS

J. S. Bunker, Bunker Farms, Mesa, Arizona

After feeding 100 dairy cows on DE for approximately
one year, the following results were noted:

1. Warbles became non-existent.

2. Fly nuisance almost completely disappeared.

3. Odours were almost completely gone.

4. Cows have better hair and coat condition and have
no desire to lick soil as in the past.

5. Vet bills have been significantly reduced.

6. Butterfat content has risen from 503 lbs. per cow
to 513 lbs. per cow.

FIELD REPORT - FEEDING OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE
DIATOMACEOUS EARTH TO DAIRY COWS

Daniel M. Brandt, McFarland, Wisconsin

Results from feeding 5 to 6 ounces of food-grade
diatomaceous earth to dairy herd for a period of five
weeks:

1. Butterfat tests have shown an increase of 3.7 to
3.9.

2. Mastitis, which had been quite a severe problems,
came under control (no new cases).

3. Cows are brighter and healthier in appearance and
milk production has increased without an appreciable
increase in feed.

STUDY OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IN FEED
PIGS

M. F. Petty, DVM, Alabama

Results were as follows:

1. No internal parasites were discovered in the test
group at any time after seven days of the DE.

2. All hogs on DE stopped rooting and destroying the
wooden feeder after 10 days.

3. By the end of the third week the odour of the test
group was noticeably less offensive than the control
group.

4. At the end of six weeks the fly population
decreased markedly.

RESULTS OF THE USE OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS
EARTH WITH POULTRY

C. S. Mangen, DVM, San Diego,California

Using two groups of birds with each group consisting
of 8,000 white leghorn caged layers in their pullet
year which had been producing for five months.

After feeding the test group 60 lbs. of diatomaceous
earth per 1-1/2 tons of standard mixed feed (17%
protein) for 2-1/2 months the following results were
observed:

1. There appeared to be less flies around the test
group.

2. Droppings are of a drier consistency, making for
easier cleaning of the house.

3. Seventy-five percent less deaths in the test group.

4. A 2-4 case per day increase in egg production by
the test group compared to the control group.

RESULTS OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH FED TO
HORSES

Four Winds Stables, Robert D. Horkman, Orlando,
Florida

Results of feeding 5 oz. of diatomaceous earth to show
horses for a period of one year.

Healthier-looking animals with a definite sheen to
their coats

absence of internal parasites

better feed conversion

reduction in manure odour

fly control

cured scours in cases where other medications had
failed

improved appetites in picky eaters.

REPORT ON FEEDING OF STAR LAKE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH TO
DAIRY GOATS

Sue Cheeseman, Pinnacle Farms, Lanark County, Ontario

We have been providing DE to our herd of Alpine dairy
goats on a regular basis (two weeks on, two weeks
off) for three years and have had completely
eliminated all internal worm problems. We have also
found that the fly population has dropped and we have
successfully used DE to treat lice. Everyone who meets
our goats comments on the soft, rich texture of their
coats and we are convinced that the DE plays a role in
this as well.

CLINICAL OBSERVATIONS OF FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE
DIATOMACEOUS EARTH TO DOGS

O. C. Collins, DVM, Midland Animal Clinic and
Hospital, Midland, Texas

In clinical observations of feeding dogs over 35 lbs.
1 tablespoon/day and under 35 lbs. 1 teaspoon/day of
diatomaceous earth, within seven days all ova
disappeared from stools. Diatomaceous Earth controlled
Ascarids (Toxacara canis), Hookworms (Anclyostoma
caninum), and Whipworms (Trichuris vulipis).

FIELD REPORT - FREE CHOICE FEEDING TO DAIRY CATTLE

Dairy Herd Association Improvement Program,
HusseyFarms, Litchfield Park, Arizona

Tests run on purebred Jersey dairy cows given free
choice access to codex food-grade diatomaceous earth
(DE).

Average intake was three ounces per cow per day.

After six months the following results were observed:

1. Milk production in the test group increased over
20% with butter-fat content remaining the same.

2. Warbles problems came to an abrupt halt.

3. Feed assimilation improved and fly problems were
brought under control.

ORGAN ANALYSIS OF DAIRY COWS

Michigan Department of Agriculture, Laboratory
Division, Lansing, Michigan

Upon pathological examination of the organs of dairy
cows having been given free-choice feeding of codex
food-grade diatomaceous earth for a period of
approximately five years, no visible organ
abnormalities were observed.

RESULTS OF CATTLE FEED LOT TESTS

Webster Feed Lots Inc., Webster, Colorado
by Dr. Jack Martin, Sterling Nutritional Services

Four groups of cattle of over 300 head each, test
steers, control steers, test heifers, control heifers.
All groups primarily hereford/angus crosses or "black
baldies" with remainder being hereford, angus, or
exotics. All groups nearly identical in breed
composition.

Test groups fed freshwater, food grade DE at the rate
of 3% of total daily ration. (Note: Midway through
the test, heifer ration was changed from 3% to 1.5% as
there had been a reduction in the daily feed
consumption with the test heifers. Normal feed
consumption resumed with the lower percentage of DE.)

Significant findings include:

Fewer deaths: DE fed calves had lower pen mortalities.
None of the test group deaths were caused by lactic
acidosis, a common result of switching calves from
pasture to feedlot.

Lower Feed Cost: Test animals experienced daily weight
gain similar to the control animals while consuming
less feed.

Greater Profit: Performance was better in the steer
group than the heifer group. The DE fed steers
yielded $9.10 per-head profit than the control steers.
The DE fed heifers produced $8.30 per head more
money.

REPORT ON FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH
TO WALKING HORSES

L. Thomas, Trainer, L. Frank Roper Stables, Winter
Garden, Florida

With horses fed approximately 5 oz. of diatomaceous
earth mixed in the feed twice daily, the following
results were observed:

1. Stopped scours even on horses that had not
responded to any other medications.

2. Noticeable fly reduction.

3. Horses showed an increase in appetites.

4. Weight gain due to better feed conversion.

5. Reduction in manure odour.

6. Elimination of any internal parasites.

7. Healthier appearance.

EasyDay · #**111** 02/08/12, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillHoo

I like to check sources.

<snip>

** No such place as Four Winds Farm in Orlando, FLA

I don't have time to go chasing after the rest of these ghosts. So I will rest my case.

I picked one at random, just for self-verification, and found this:

http://www.woodsdressage.com/four_winds_farm.html

They operate out of Ocala, but do a mobile horse business in several other towns, including Orlando. That means someone may have messed up the town, but most likely not the business.

So, I checked the vet, MF Petty. In the backwood's home forums... http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/v...ad.php?t=18081 ... someone else questioned his existence and reported back with this:

Quote:

I found this reference to M.F. Petty, DVM in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association‎ back in 1963.

"B. F. Hoerlein, DVM, Ph.D.; AB Few, DVM; MF Petty, DVM ... Few (1961) was a Research Fellow and Dr. Petty (1960) a Student Fellow of the Morris Animal Foundation."

This guy's probably dead by now.

So many threads these days get thrown out of whack with trivial over-analyzing (see above). The way I see it, those that like what DE does for them, good for you and have at it! If you don't believe that the users' personal observations are true (you certainly can't prove that), by all means, don't use it!

I remember a DE thread from a year or two or three ago, and I read an online report that the FDA declined to test it for ingestion because (due to it's "all natural" properties) it isn't a "drug". Do I have a link? No. Did I link to it way back when? I don't remember... but, I'm not going to look to see. I'll leave that to the anal retentive members.

pancho · #**112** 02/08/12, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanthomas

It isn't a definitive statement. It's a statement of the findings of the study. That's how science works. You test something and report your findings. And you include the caveat that it hasn't been confirmed by placebo-controlled studies. For the record, there was comparison, though. They took measurements before, during, and after. Choose to believe it or not. That's fine. But it is a scientific study, even if it goes against your opinion.

My opinion does not really matter.
Neither does the people who performed this "test".
How do they know or even have any idea what caused any change?
Things change. Enviorment changes. Food changes. The body changes.
That is why if there is no control group the test is useless. Any changes noted could be because of many different things. It is impossible to know what caused the change as they have nothing to compare it to.

LisaInN.Idaho · #**113** 02/08/12, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyDay

I picked one at random, just for self-verification, and found this:

http://www.woodsdressage.com/four_winds_farm.html

They operate out of Ocala, but do a mobile horse business in several other towns, including Orlando. That means someone may have messed up the town, but most likely not the business.

.

Oh Hey! I know Wood's Dressage! My daughter clinics with Bill (he travels up here a few times a year) in fact, her regular trainer is staying with he and his wife right now in Florida. I've never heard any mention of DE but I can find out if he uses it.

LisaInN.Idaho · #**114** 02/08/12, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LisaInN.Idaho

Oh Hey! I know Wood's Dressage! My daughter clinics with Bill (he travels up here a few times a year) in fact, her regular trainer is staying with he and his wife right now in Florida. I've never heard any mention of DE but I can find out if he uses it.

I should have looked more closely at the original link. I'm sure Woods Dressage is not the Four Winds from Orlando. Woods Dressage was Four Winds when they were in Massachusetts, not in Florida.

Rogo · #**115** 02/08/12, 07:13 PM

Year ago, when I started feeding DE to my critters, I periodically took in fresh manure samples from several critters so the vet could do fecal tests. This is the best way to test ANY dewormer.

Soon the vets told me to stop bringing in samples since they all had been clean. Several of those vets started feeding DE to their own stock.

Cholesterol (sp?) -- I have many friends who are doctors. I'm not a patient of any of them, so they talk to you different.
They've told me not to bother being tested. They along with big pharma, started this thing to fatten their wallets. They also have said that doctors are asking patients to get their count down too low, since cholesterol is needed for many body functions.

ryanthomas · #**116** 02/08/12, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

My opinion does not really matter.
Neither does the people who performed this "test".
How do they know or even have any idea what caused any change?
Things change. Enviorment changes. Food changes. The body changes.
That is why if there is no control group the test is useless. Any changes noted could be because of many different things. It is impossible to know what caused the change as they have nothing to compare it to.

They don't know for sure. But the study isn't useless. It shows a correlation. That's a great first step. The researchers tested it on a group of people, not just one. It's very unlikely that a group of people would have similar positive changes at roughly the same time but from different causes while all taking part in the study. Nothing is a sure thing, not even with science. But it was enough evidence to show findings.

Bearfootfarm · #**117** 02/08/12, 08:37 PM

Quote:

For the record, there was comparison, though. They took measurements before, during, and after. Choose to believe it or not. That's fine. But it is a scientific study, even if it goes against your opinion.

It's not very "scientific" with no control group, no placebos, and no information as to whether other factors such as DIETS were controlled.

It's just another fabricated "study" to hype DE

Bearfootfarm · #**118** 02/08/12, 08:40 PM

Quote:

How could you possibly know that the effects could not be duplicated in a lab when those effects have not been tested in a lab? That's not an assumption. I actually searched clinical trials. I didn't find a single relevant study

If the producers of DE WANT to make the claim, they have to do the studies.
If they haven'[t been done, it's because folks are smart enough to realize it's pointless, since it's nothing but powdered rock

Quote:

But it was enough evidence to show findings.

The "finding" was they need a REAL study

If it REALLY did the things evreyone claims, it would be proclaimed a "miracle drug", and Drs all over the world would be prescribing it

ryanthomas · #**119** 02/08/12, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

It's not very "scientific" with no control group, no placebos, and no information as to whether other factors such as DIETS were controlled.

It's just another fabricated "study" to hype DE

Take it up with science. This methodology is routine. I don't know the background of the researchers for that study, but you've shown no reason to believe they're hyping anything. You've also shown no studies that show DE doesn't work, so you have even less evidence than the people who claim it does.

ETA: For what it's worth, what I posted was just an abstract, not the whole study. It may very well talk about the diet factor in the actual study.

Bearfootfarm · #**120** 02/08/12, 09:42 PM

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You've also shown no studies that show DE doesn't work

You don't need a "study" to prove an INERT substance has no effect,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert

Quote:

In English, to be inert is to be in a state of doing little or nothing.

Quote:

There is no available scientific evidence that supports the health claims about diatomaceous earth.

Dr. Risk Rasby, professor of Animal Science at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, states that although diatomaceous earth is known to kill insects, its effect on intestinal parasites in animals has not yet been reported.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5644674_hu...ous-earth.html

Quote:

There have been 4 or 5 scientific studies and the data consistently show that diatomaceous earth does not kill worms in goats although one study did show that at a very high level (5% of the diet), it had a slight effect.

http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Publications/part5.htm

Quote:

Given that the level of dust is already quite high in barns, diatomaceous earth does not seem appropriate when the animals are fed indoors.

The main motivation for adding diatomaceous earth to rations should not be to control internal parasites. If it is to be used, it is important to use non-calcined diatomaceous earth and without additives for insecticide use

http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm

Quote:

According to Anne Zajac, DVM, PhD, Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine, Virginia Tech, Blackburg, VA, there have been several studies done by parasitologists in different parts of the country that have found no beneficial effect to feeding it or offering it as mineral.

http://www.motesclearcreekfarms.com/asp/articles/DE.asp