Underground animal housing

agmantoo,

Your points are perfectly valid if we're talking about about a huge confinement production facility. I don't think that's what Thumper is thinking about ("I want it about 400 square feet"). There are literally tens of thousands of old 'chicken coops' out and about that are about 16' by 24' (384 sq ft) and bigger, with an opaque roof, natural ventilation, and windows on only one side. Imagine those coops with soil bermed up against those three windowless sides, and some on the roof. How does the soil do anything other than make the system more energy efficient?

I too am a fan of earth-sheltered construction. After reading several books on the matter, I got in touch with Malcolm Wells, a pioneer architect of that industry. His approach, albeit more expensive that Oehler's because he uses concrete rather than wood in his building philosophy, has much value and experience. In Wells' book "How to Build an Underground House," he addresses the issue of ventilation systems (apart from our standard doors and windows in "traditional" structures).

Anyway, you may want to check out the site I built on earth-sheltered construction: http://www.malcolmwells.com.

I have a page ("Earth Shelter Resources") there with links to dozens of photos and articles on underground architecture (and other "green" building concepts).

Enjoy and good luck!

bluereef

p.s. regarding the underground greenhouses, if any of you know online examples, send them my way!! Post a link at the Earth Shelter Resources page mentioned above.

I thought everyone was trying to be helpful based on the info at hand. Sorry I contributed. No point going farther if minds are made up.

--->Paul

Just an idea, but you could still have the hill over the top, but put in a short tower projecting even three feet up-maybe that has windows and venting above. This will allow for venting and still keep the profile fairly low. And let a little light in to complement the other windows.

When I first read this idea I thought it was great. Trying to anchor pastured poultry during high winds was a nightmare!! Which is why I don't have them that way now. And we don't get near the winds you do.

agmantoo wrote -

"Nautral ventilation in a bermed building will be inadequate."

will be??? No. could be, I'll agree with.

"The project as a chicken house is not economically justifiable IMO."

No small scale chicken operation can be economically justifiable, IMO.

Thumper, I must have missed something. Did you say somewhere that this project was some kind of 'get rich quick' kind of thing? What do you expect out of this project?

Surely not, but to me rich is more than money in the bank,
I'll be back later, our ISP is acting up and my 1st try to post got lost, we are low on power (cloudy day) I'm pushing my luck with the batteries right now, I just don't want to start up the generator if I can help it!

I think 100 birds loose in a 400 sq ft house on rainy days and over night is plenty room.

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

Well, the generator is running and I will try to catch up,


Going more or less back up the list from here,
"What do I expect..."
My husband wants to build a store on the north end of or property, we have 60 acres with frontage on a state highway (59b south of Shawnee Ok) the goal is to sell our excess production direct to consumers, as well as some to other stores, this would provide state inspected facilities for meat, eggs and prepared foods and the proper location for a business office.

To us, rich is far more than money, but we want our bills paid, and some left over to play with, but not money for money's sake.

BCR, my husband likes the cupola idea.

I can agree if the animals where confined it would be very difficult to keep them healthy, but I do not believe in confinement farming, and this is true of above ground housing also. My birds have learned to be almost wild they go out in all types of weather cold, hot or wet, even in rather high winds.

I am thinking a fenced area about 100 x 100 ft with the house in the center, I would like to rotate the chickens and other animals through several of these "pens" fencing with cattle panels will allow chickens to pass through to the open pastures and the woods for the majority of their food as they do now, {we only have to buy feed in winter and I am learning how to grow what we need for that}

I like rare breed chickens, they are not about high production, they are about beauty, hardiness, flavor and heritage. I belive 100 chickens could be housed in the 400 sq ft of the house for the few bad weather days and over night quite well, I have had chickens for over 2 years, I spend hours observing them and understand their needs quite well. Perhaps better that someone who raises them confined just for profit.

There is no "intention" about our being off grid, we are off grid, we have always been off grid here, the nearest power poles are a 1/4 mile away, it would cost us over $5,000 just to let them cut down our trees, then we have to give them a right of way that we can't take back, then pay them to put in the poles and hook us up and pay a monthly membership fee even if we don't use any power.

We will not be on grid. The store maybe could be.

rambler, (Paul) I when back and reread your post to be sure of what you said and find nothing negative about your ideas, to the contrary, your points are valid in all housing, aboveground, and underground, animal and human. I did not intend you to be lumped in with the idea bashers.

We have trouble with drainage even though we are on a hill, on one of the highest ridge lines in the area, because of the clay subsoil with sand on top, when it rains for more than a full day we are in soup!

What suggestions would you have for this problem?
This is an almost daily concern for us.

which minds are made up? I didn't post to ask if anyone thought it was a good idea or not, but for other ideas on how it could work, I don't have every point worked out, thinking outside the box can find you options you didn't know you had.

There are people who have built and lived in underground buildings, how else should I find them and learn from them if I don't ask? Some people can have inspirations that solve problems that are not even encountered yet, so who's mind is made up?
I think only those who have decided it can't work have.
Where did I ask someone to talk me out of this crazy idea?

bluereef, thank you for the info Iwill be reading there as soon as I get done here.

Joan, rambler, revontulet, countrygrrrl, Steve L., bluereef, and BCR

THANK YOU!

I am learning something everyday that will help with this project, we have pigs now (pot belly cross), I watch them for ways to rotate them right along with the other animals, How to get feed water and myself in and how to get used bedding and maure out? I'm still thinking on those points, how to have the inside set up for the best use with many animals is still on the drawing board as well, {the pigs will now follow me anywhere I call them to} even up & down the ravines, or up & down ramps, I think the vinyl flooring will prohibit rooting out the floors, but I will need to test them on that.

I think I covered every thing I had missed.

and I am open to more ideas from out there, tell me where my logic or science is flawed, show me things I haven't thought of,

to coin a prase......
"I can cut my own meat"

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

thumper - one of the problems oehler touches on only lightly is the possibility of puncturing the plastic film over the roof as dirt is spread above the film - my thought is that during construction everyone is doubly careful not to do just that and the dangerous period is long after construction is finished and someone is digging in the roof garden - similarly there is the possibility of moles, gophers, etc puncturing the film after construction (especially a problem in my area) -
my thought is to scavenge all the old metal barn/shed roofing/siding i can find and bury it in a acontinuous sheet a couple inches above the film and then back filling the rest of the dirt - the sheet would extend horizontally for some distance beyond the roof edge and then turn under for added protection - just my thinkin

Yeah, I think it is just too easy to lay out plastic, and not poke a hole in it, I read about a way to extend the dry zone seveal years ago in the mother earth news magazine, where they added extra layers of water proofing several feet above the soil that was back filled. Free old metal would be a good way to discourage digging in. We have gophers too.

I like the idea of of the roof having a large over hang
to protect the windows, and buried walls from direct water infiltration.
We will have to get the water away from the walls etc, before it can soak in or it will end up a cistern instead of a chicken house.

I can't get my brain around how to get the door into the thing yet, we are on a almost flat topped hill, I have been building paper models of the ideas on shape and roof systems, but it isn't "working" for me, [my husband likes round buildings too, it may end up 8 sided]

If I had a tunneled ramp? How to manage water that enters the ramp?
I ruled out steps, I thought about 50 lbs bags of feed and bales of straw bedding,

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

Thumper, if you go this route, I might have a lot of the old metal you can have in another month or so.

I have an old goat barn I'm fixing to dissemble fairly soon --- I need to get new posts in it , burn out the floors, reside/reroof in salvage lumber, etc.

Right now, its roof and sides are corrugated tin but all of it is fixing to go. If you're interested in it, later today, I'll count the panels.

I'm a ways away from Shawnee --- I'm up north of Vian --- but most of the drive for you would be Hwy 40. But depending on things, this might be a fairly cheap solution for you. It would also be a huge help for e, as I haven't had any idea what to do with all that corrugated tin!!

thumper - my rule of thumb is to never fight gravity - it always wins -
water GOTTA run downhill - last thing i made a drain system for was a root cellar/shelter combo - had to take advantage of a slight slope and ended up with a drain line going downhill and away - started out about 9' below grade at the high end around the cellar and ended up at 2' below grade at the outlet end - with the whole works going downhill - about a 300' long trench -
while the trench was open i installed a 4" line in a loop to serve as a geothermal device for summer cooling - the loop at the far end is about 175' from the cellar because at that point i reached 4' below grade and did not want to get any shallower - will not know how well it will work until summer arrives -
anyway, if you can install a sloping perimeter drain a foot or so lower than the floor of your underground project and can also slope that drain outlet away from the site you should never have problems with moisture - also, if you decide to go with ramp/steps for entry, the lower end can be a few inches lower than the main floor and connect to your perimeter drain -
good luck

Thumper, I read this thread and thought of a few things for you to think about.
I took a part of your post to put here.
" 1st it's Mike (not Gary) Oehler, and building a chicken house using the Underground House Book's PSP system is something we would concider FUN and usefull, both for the experience and for the tornado/high wind safe house for animals that will contribute to our well being and future income."

I wanted to comment on the part of you using this structure as a safe house. Would this be for family too? If so.. one thing to consider is if any wind gets into this structure while you or your family is in it.. Chicken Dust is dangerous. The other would be that linoleum flooring. Even a tad bit wet..it will be slippery when rushing across it to get to protection. Another thought on the linoleum, once the chickens scratch down to it they will peck and peck at it and it will continue to chip apart. I've seen chickens scratch through three hay bales stacked to get to the flooring.

Another thought. What about rats? Chicken coops seen notorius for collecting rats. They can dig a massive system of tunnels through your hill. I dont know an answer to this.. just wanted to lay that idea on the table for you.

And one more thought.. you want an over hang... wouldnt this be trouble with your tornadoes if the wind hits that just right it would flip your whole roof system back and expose it all?

How about having two rooms? One for people in case of emergency and the other into pens for your animals to stay put during this emergency? Have it set up into several pen enclosures but open while chickens are using it. THis way you can have seperate containments for each animal and dont have to worry about them while your waiting out the storm. For example..dogs, cats, goats each have a place.

On the people side of this structure its a bit more confined but cleaner and not so dusty if the winds get in. You could store your feed in this room if needed. You could also store your emergency supplies here and know they are safe from chickens.

I'm not trying to shoot this idea down.. I love it as a matter of fact. But these were things that popped into my head as I read along.

>>joan - my rule of thumb is to never fight gravity - it always wins -

A hard spot in my plans and location is that the high point of the current grade is on the south and east sides, the lower on the north and west, I would really like a door on the south or east side, east is my favorite, but I can't "get" how to do it with out water coming in the door way, and loosened soil perks more than undisturbed soil, so I don't know if back filling a building a slope away from the door (which would be and artifical grade, which perks more) would be enough to drain the water before it soaks in and ends up inside. We have plenty of dirt so I can make the hill as tall and as wide as I need to,

So, Would a back filled slope drain more than it soaked up? Does anyone know how long it would take to settle in and drain with out perking more the the undisturbed soil?


>>water GOTTA run downhill - last thing i made a drain system for was a root >>cellar/shelter combo - had to take advantage of a slight slope and ended up >>with a drain line going downhill and away - started out about 9' below grade >>at the high end around the cellar and ended up at 2' below grade at the >>outlet end - with the whole works going downhill - about a 300' long trench -
>>while the trench was open i installed a 4" line in a loop to serve as a >>geothermal device for summer cooling - the loop at the far end is about 175' >>from the cellar because at that point i reached 4' below grade and did not >>want to get any shallower - will not know how well it will work until summer >>arrives -

There is a low enough slope on the north west side to run to day light with a drain I really belive if I can keep the water from getting in during heavy rains (we have had some that droped 4 inches in one hour, and kept raining for several more days) Then the ground water, or below grade drainage, thich we have because of the clay subsoil will drain away with out any trouble, but if the rain gets in it could take a week or more to dry out again.

>>anyway, if you can install a sloping perimeter drain a foot or so lower than >>the floor of your underground project and can also slope that drain outlet >>away from the site you should never have problems with moisture

Do you think a perimeter drain would do with our subsoil? Or should we put in a subfloor of drainage rock? just a perimeter would be alot less work and money.

>> - also, if you decide to go with ramp/steps for entry, the lower end can be a >>few inches lower than the main floor and connect to your perimeter drain -
>>good luck

Theres the rub, to do this the door will have to be on the north west side.
I have been watching my pigs though and they will step down off of pallets, so maybe 2 steps up and down over a threshhold to a ramp? Could horses and cows use a building with an entrance like that?

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

>>9Pines - I wanted to comment on the part of you using this structure as a >>safe house. Would this be for family too?

This building would be for animals, during bad weather and over night lock up, I have alot of trouble with dust in the above gound barn and have to wear a dust mask while working in there,

>>The other would be that linoleum flooring. Even a tad bit wet..it will be >>slippery when rushing across it to get to protection. Another thought on the >>linoleum, once the chickens scratch down to it they will peck and peck at it >>and it will continue to chip apart.

I have only used vinyl flooring with cats dogs and reptiles so far, so I don't know for sure how it would hold up with chickens and other large animals, I guess if it didn't work out it could be removed, it is easier to take out than to put in, I always use saw dust and straw as bedding wet saw dust tends to stick to floors of any kind than I have seen, as long as I keep it mantained and thick enought it should be safe and not too slippery, but I don't know for sure, if it didn't work there would always be dirt under it to go back to. Maybe the dirt mixed with cement someone had posted about awahile back.


>>Another thought. What about rats? Chicken coops seen notorius for >>collecting rats. They can dig a massive system of tunnels through your hill. >>I dont know an answer to this.. just wanted to lay that idea on the table for >>you.

so far we have mice and not rats, I have heard you most often have one or the other and not both, in either case we have dogs and cats, our yard in the city had rats crossing between houses and under our shed, the dogs have killed many rats in their youth, I really like to keep things light and airy so the varmints have few places to hide and the cats can get to them with ease.

>>And one more thought.. you want an over hang... wouldnt this be trouble >>with your tornadoes if the wind hits that just right it would flip your whole >>roof system back and expose it all?

It would indeed if it was not all the way to the ground, most often debris gets bashed into the house by the wind then, the hole from that, lets the wind in full force and the roof is gone, My idea was to have the roof extend maybe 3 feet beyond the walls but still secure to the ground and with soil on top and there would be openings for the windows, but I don't know if the crawl space this would make would be flithy, or if I could not get to it to clean it out I know chickens like to lay around in the shade during the heat of summer, and it wasn't too bad under the trailers where they lounged last year, but it just seems really gross to have some where I couldn't reach to clean when it needed it.

>>How about having two rooms? One for people in case of emergency and the >>other into pens for your animals to stay put during this emergency? Have it >>set up into several pen enclosures but open while chickens are using it. THis >>way you can have seperate containments for each animal and dont have to >>worry about them while your waiting out the storm. For example..dogs, cats, >>goats each have a place.

We have a place under our house, the whole house can blow away and it will still have it's own roof, but it gets still water during very heavy rains, not from surface run off, but up through the bottom because of the soil perking, it drains back out pretty quick though, I am hopeing adding gutters and some outdoor carpeting will help by diverting roof drainage before it gets to the ground. It may still perk in because there is so much land up hill from the house.

>>On the people side of this structure its a bit more confined but cleaner and >>not so dusty if the winds get in. You could store your feed in this room if >>needed. You could also store your emergency supplies here and know they >>are safe from chickens.

This is a good idea, I have played with floor plans and want a roosting area with a earthworm pit that is wired off so the birds cant get to it, and a roosting deck that will raise up at the front so I can clean it out, and I want a room for brooding chicks away from the adults, who will quite frankly eat them. and lots of open space, plus a feed/equipment closet, keeping a set of emergency gear in there is excellent! people could just go to the closest shelter instead of risking making it to the house. Planing for multi animal rotation more dividers/rooms would be good to have in mind, thank you.

>>I'm not trying to shoot this idea down.. I love it as a matter of fact. But >>these were things that popped into my head as I read along

thank you for your ideas, I hadn't yet concidered that useing the same building for different animals would require extras, like a way to close off the roosting area or the goats ect would be climbing on it and falling through, this is what I meant about one person having a thought that shows you something else you missed along the way.

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

thumper - our soil is also very heavy on clay content - i made the perimeter drain about 12" below floor level, laid black plastic perf pipe and covered to floor level with gravel - then backfilled about 4-6" at a time and compacted with a rented jumping jack (compactor) - it packed 6" of loose clay soil down to about 1 1/2 " solid - and, it was solid - could not jam a shovel into the surface - i'm not worried about it taking on water faster than undisturbed soil - so far, no problem with water showing at floor level after several heavy, heavy rains in a row - sloped the entire perimeter drain to a low point that then connected with the long trench out to my tree line - paid due homage to mr. gravity

thumper - got to thinkin again about your entrance - would oehler's idea of the "uphill patio" work for you - it could be modified at one side to be a shallow ramp down to floor level that shouldn't present an obstacle to livestock

thumper - another point - when establishing your grade for floor, drains and trench, do NOT trust your eyeballs - if you can't get hold of a transit at least make up a long bubble level using garden hose - them old eyeballs will lie to you every time

Is that how did you compacted the back fill outside the walls, or the floor inside? The walls is where I think the water is most likely to come in, because that is where it comes from in our cellar under the house.

Heavy rain causes water to stand ankle deep over the entire properity because the grass holds it back and the slope is just shallow enough, once the rain is over, this water then slowly soaks in or mostly drains away, the next day most of the ground is firm again. As it soaks in the under ground springs run for days, where the soil has been disturbed it soaks in faster, which means more water than in an undisturbed area, [the big overhang is sounding better all the time].

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

thumper - compacted both the floor and all the disturbed soil outside the walls - of course the portion outside will be most important as far as keeping dry - the overhang idea is good, but the idea of an underground membrane extending far out beyond the walls is even better -
dont think anyone can give you any guarantees - the thing might leak or it might not - all the precautions you can take and good design go to swing the odds in your favor - after that its just a crap shoot

such is life, but educated guesses help!
Thanks or the ideas and incouragement.

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}