I think you'r getting confused, laquered steel cases are a modern thing common to communist countries. The problems with the early centerfire govt ammo was they were thin copper, inside primed shells with folded heads, like 22 rimfire ammo. They stuck in chambere after they fouled with black powder fouling, and the chambers became hot. The extractor would tear through the rim, then they were stuck with trying to pry the shell out with their knives. Some soldiers were found dead with broken knives next to them, and carbines with shells stuck in the chambers. When they went to outside primed brass shells, and the relatives solid heads, they stopped having troubles with shells sticking in the chambers. I believe they also started to put some taper in the chambers, instead of an untapered chamber. It wasn't just Sharps that had troubles with the copper cased ammo, it was the trapdoors as well. In actual use, I believe the trapoors did better in general than the Sahrps when used with the early Govt ammo, and was one reason the trapdoor was used more as time went on.
The pics show the gun is original (which you now know anyways), the modern C Sharps doesn't make guns with functional primer feed devices, which can be seen in the picture, they just make lock plates with the outline of the early style locks. The paper cartridge Sharps had a tape primer feed system. Many of the cartridge guns in existance were percussion guns converted to cartridge, by the Sharps factory, and by individual gunsmiths. The Govt used many of them before the trapdoor gns were in widespread use, and many were converted to sporting guns (buffalo guns) The sporting converson guns are obvious from the remains of the primer feed under the lock, and the cut off sling bar (commonly called a saddle ring) on the left side of the gun.
I don't recall hearing of any Sharps being used by Custers men.
Ok, If what you are saying is true, I stand corrected!
Yes I am confusing the steel cases for the copper cases..
As I said I will have to check my references.. I'm almost positive that Custer had some Sharps rifles or carbines.. But you and tinkal have me questioning that now!
I do understand the different cartridges, I have some Sharps Cartridges (bought them at auction over 20 years ago) that are center, inside primed and look like large rimfires, but of course aren't.
We also have repros of the 1859 Sharps Rifle (3 bands) and the Carbine (2 bands), plus the 1874 Carbine in 45-70. We also have a repro Spencer Carbine and an 1860 Henry Rifle... Other then the 1874, can you tell we are Civil War reenactors? One of our members even has a Smith Rifle.. Of course we started out with our smoke poles ( Springfield's and Enfield's)..
Oh I also have whats left of an original 1862 Tower (Enfield), it has been cut down and turned into a sporting arm/shotgun sometime after the war...
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As far as a Sharps rifle at the Little Big Horn, you all may be correct. Apprently, Sargeant Ryan of the 7th Calvary had a Sharps with a scope. However, he was not part of the famed massacre.
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Massacre????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabin Fever
As far as a Sharps rifle at the Little Big Horn, you all may be correct. Apprently, Sargeant Ryan of the 7th Calvary had a Sharps with a scope. However, he was not part of the famed massacre.
I lived 16 miles away from the Battlefield for 2 years. I spent quite a bit of time wandering around both the Custer Battlefield, and the Reno-Benteen Battlefield. The firing pits at the Reno-Benteen site can still be seen. The men who ran down the "water coolly" Won the CMH (except the one who was wounded and rescued by the others). Bringing up the steamship to evacuate the wounded was a modern miracle, as the Rivers were not that wide that far upstream.
Sitting Bull was a great tribal leader, but the real war leaders at LBH were Crazy Horse, Red Cloud, and Northern Cheyenne Chief Dull Knife. Many Americans look down on Custer as a fool but the Sioux and Cheyenne saw him as a great warrior, (they respected that sort of thing) so much so that they did not scalp him.
The victory was won with both superior weapons and tactics. This was probably the only major battle in the "Indian wars" where the Indians were better armed than the Cavalry. Most of the Indians had been living peaceably on granted land in the Black Hills. They were able to buy Henry and Winchester repeating rifles. The gold rush drove them off their own land and they were some peaved off. The Seventh Cavalry was armed with revolvers and left over civil war arms. The Indians hit Custer's men while they were spread out in a series of declivities in the rolling terrain. It wasn't like the movies where they were all together in one group, they were all scattered from Hell to breakfast.
The only "survivor" was Comanche, Lt. Myles Keogh's horse.
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I was more of the opinion that it was 'pay-back'......
I was more of the opinion it was a typical egotistical officer not paying attention to what his scouts toldhim ...That he was going up against a minimum of 2000 of the finest guerilla fighters in the world at that time
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I was more of the opinion it was a typical egotistical officer not paying attention to what his scouts toldhim ...That he was going up against a minimum of 2000 of the finest guerilla fighters in the world at that time
I have to go along with you.. But then I know Custer as the arrogant and egotistical commander of the Civil War.. That doesn't mean I don't have any respect for him. It just means I know some of the history..
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The Custer battle always is interesting discussion.
It isn't as simple as saying "the indians had,..." they had a wide variety of arms, by no means were they all well armed. Many did have some Henrys and Winchesters, but many had bows, various revolvers, muzzle loaders, 50 cal trapdoors (many 45-70 cases were found that had been fired in 50-70 chambers). The soldiers had the newest model model Springfield carbines, not civil war leftovers. They may have fared better had they been armed with Spencer repeaters, which were used on the western frontiers after the war, but were withdrawn from service in most places after the Springfields were being made in quantity. The first trapdoor Springfields were converted Civil war muzzle laoders, in 58 rimfire cal, then 50-70 cal. Those were 1865 and 1866 models, there were other models of 1868 and 1870 in 50 cal that were new-made guns, not converted guns before the 1873 model Springfield in 45-70 came out.
The Spencers played a prominant role in the Beechers Island fight. Interesting story if you aren't famliar with it.
I've been to the Custer battlefield a number of times. If Reno and Benteen had followed orders and attacked the villiage as planned, the outcome may have been very different. It was supposed to be a 3 pronged simultaneous attack. Reno rode along the south side and said he couldn't find a way to get to the villiage from the side he was supposed to attack, so did nothing at the moment, then came back and reinforced Benteens remnants. Benteen stopped and formed a dismounted skirmish line at the edge of the villiage instead of riding through it in a mounted attack, as the plan was supposed to be, allowing the Indians to form an effective counter attack, pinning him down, and freeing up fighters to repell Custer when he tried crossing the river farther up. The plan may not have been the best in hindsight, but I think the failure was more of the other 2 elements (Reno and Benteen not following the plan), not the plan itself. The numbers arent the only issue in abattle. Taking the initiative, and making a surprise attack on a villiage with women and children in it isnt the same as meeting on an open battelfield. Whatever one may think of Custer, or attacking villiages with women and children in them, I don't think the plan was as bad as most make it out today, it was the execution of the plan. It simply wasn't followed thru.
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This is waaaayyyy off topic, but my wife has Native American blood in her veins and as a result she enjoys Native American music. The song below is off of one her albums by group know as Ulalli. The song combines Native American voices and drums along with the 7th Cavalry's Irish theme song "Garry Owens."
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This is waaaayyyy off topic, but my wife has Native American blood in her veins and as a result she enjoys Native American music. The song below is off of one her albums by group know as Ulalli. The song combines Native American voices and drums along with the 7th Cavalry's Irish theme song "Garry Owens."
Thanks for sharing that.. A little hard to understand and hear some of the speakers though.. It was also a bit different hearing the Native American voices in the Garry Owens tempo...
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Pennsylvania Constitution, Article 1 Section 21 "The Right of the Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned" www.pafoa.org http://www.45thpacok.com
The Custer battle always is interesting discussion.
I
I've been to the Custer battlefield a number of times. If Reno and Benteen had followed orders and attacked the villiage as planned, the outcome may have been very different. It was supposed to be a 3 pronged simultaneous attack. Reno rode along the south side and said he couldn't find a way to get to the villiage from the side he was supposed to attack, so did nothing at the moment, then came back and reinforced Benteens remnants. Benteen stopped and formed a dismounted skirmish line at the edge of the villiage instead of riding through it in a mounted attack, as the plan was supposed to be, allowing the Indians to form an effective counter attack, pinning him down, and freeing up fighters to repell Custer when he tried crossing the river farther up. The plan may not have been the best in hindsight, but I think the failure was more of the other 2 elements (Reno and Benteen not following the plan), not the plan itself. The numbers arent the only issue in abattle. Taking the initiative, and making a surprise attack on a villiage with women and children in it isnt the same as meeting on an open battelfield. Whatever one may think of Custer, or attacking villiages with women and children in them, I don't think the plan was as bad as most make it out today, it was the execution of the plan. It simply wasn't followed thru.
I take great issue with this. I lived and rode over the very ground that Custer, Reno, and Benteen rode. The Indian Encampment was spotted from the "Crows Nest", A small mountain in the Wolf Mountain range about 17 miles east of the Little Bighorn. At this point Custer split his command. He sent Reno around to to attack the Indian camp from the south. He sent Benteen further south to sweep any stray Indians back towards the camp. Custer and his command headed due west toward the camp.
Here is the problem. The terrain that Custer traversed was easy riding. Rolling prairie foothills.
The terrain that Reno covered, besides being a longer route was somewhat rougher country. Many creeks and small valleys, some bluffs.
The country that Benteen covered was much rougher, and it was a much longer route. A lot of up and down, small mountains, bluffs, deep sided creeks, timber, etcetera. Custer expected Reno and Benteen to cover more ground of a rougher nature than he did in an easy ride in the same amount of time. His Crow scouts knew this and sang their death songs before the battle commenced.
As a result of this Custer's command was pretty much wiped out before Reno (and eventually Benteen) even arrived at the encampment.
SFM in KY grew up in this area. She could confirm this.
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You may be corect, but that isn't how I recall it. It's been many years since I was there, but have read on it several times since I was last there. I know the way Benteen was supposed to go was rough, and he claimed he couldnt get through, so turned back and hooked up with Reno. However, I thought Reno and Benteen were up on the bluffs across the river after Reno's retreat when they could see the dust of Custers fight, and heard a volley of rifle fire trying to attract their attention. They couldn't get to Custer because of Indian rifle fire. Did the messenger get through from Custer to them with the message about "bring the packs" (ammunition)? I know that the message survived, I don't recall if it got thru.
Edit:, just looked, Reno seems to be the first action. Interesting read, has some things I haven't seen before.
I believe that picture is of Joseph, of the Nez Perce.
Back sort of on topic, there's some good reading about Sharps rifles in a couple books I've seen. One is called "Getting a Stand", about buffalo hunters, from orginal manuscripts of the time, and another, actually two, is a two volume set by Gravaglio and Wormer, called "Firearms of the American West" divided into time periods, from about 1800 to 1865, and 1865 to 1900. Both have some good reading about Sharps rifles (and about every other common gun used in the period), used by military and civilians.
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"..I don't want to get to the end of my life and find I have not lived.." - H.D. Thoreau-
One of our members even has a Smith Rifle.. Of course we started out with our smoke poles ( Springfield's and Enfield's)..
