BT Monsanto vs. Organic non GMO

JDog1222 · #41 10/21/11, 11:59 AM

If you don’t mind me adding, for what it’s worth, what I learned in my genetic class, is that in order to get the LARGER fruit, they arrest the cell during the cell cycle after the genetic material replicates, but before the cell divides. This causes the genetic material to double. You can also quadruple the genetic material by arresting the cell twice, that’s what they do to get the HUGE strawberries and peaches. NOW, every time the cell copies itself after that, you have a TON of DNA filler. SO, the smaller product like wild strawberries are IMO, more nutritious and you can eat LESS of them than the BIG ones that are just filled will filler. One of the bigger ones may fill you up, but will it meet your nutritional needs like the small one will? Will you get FULL before you take in enough nutrition? YES, the cell membranes will be larger in order to fit the extra filler in, but, if we are talking surface area, lots of smaller cells will have more surface area than the bigger ones. On the other side though, would’nt the additional DNA be calling for additional proteins being made? I’d say so. Is there anyone here with an advanced knowledge in this subject that would be able to shed some light here? I’d like to see a test done. America my be needing to worry about filling their nutritional needs instead of looking to fill their stomach. Three wild strawberries MAY be all you need, BUT, we want those BIG FAT juicy ones, DON’T we? Gluttony, I DON’T know………anyone know the nutrition analysis facts on this?

O WOW, here is something! NOT scientific worthy since it’s a .com address, but still……they do site some of the stuff!
http://www.beyondveg.com/nieft-k/ins...-guide1e.shtml
I’d say stick with organic and teach people to learn to eat smaller portions and we just may be able to feed the growing population, that is, if we go back to ALL organic!
JMHO I'm basically just noting on the bigger is better thing here, or NOT! IMO
Carry on, carry on!

Good Day to everyone!

Paquebot · #42 10/21/11, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by springvalley

Here's a picture of 3 ears of the Monsanto BT, commercially raised, sprayed, fertilized corn versus Organic, non GMO. Can anyone see or tell the difference? I will post my answer at the end of today as to which is which. I will enjoy reading each of your responses.

Few things wrong here. You are saying that both fields were sprayed? Why? There would be no reason to spray anything on the Bt corn. Also, they are obviously different varieties and both possibly suffered from drought. As one who has been up close and personal with a lot of corn in my life, I'd definitely take the ones on the left. Next time, plant Pioneer Bt corn instead. Their lines come from Dow and Mycogen and are the ones used in sweet corn.

Martin

geo in mi · #43 10/21/11, 12:58 PM

Marc,

Are you willing to describe more of your techniques for growing organic corn?

1) Name or variety.?
2) Hybrid or OP?
3) Planting method? (no-till, conventional)
4) What each field pass consisted of?
5) Fertilizer used?
6) Method of weed control?
7) Method of rootworm and earworm control?
8) Irrigated or non-irrigated?
9) USDA ORGANIC?

Thanks,

geo

springvalley · #44 10/21/11, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paquebot

Few things wrong here. You are saying that both fields were sprayed? Why? There would be no reason to spray anything on the Bt corn. Also, they are obviously different varieties and both possibly suffered from drought. As one who has been up close and personal with a lot of corn in my life, I'd definitely take the ones on the left. Next time, plant Pioneer Bt corn instead. Their lines come from Dow and Mycogen and are the ones used in sweet corn.

Martin

Martin; Only the neighbors field was sprayed, and with herbicides for weed control. No one around here but us diehards cultivate corn anymore. Yes both corns are differant varieties, very few of my neighbors would buy from a Menonite seed company. And yes it did get dry late in the year here and the fields are a bit sandy in the spots I picked the corn. I am going to keep buying corn from my seed company right now. > Thanks Marc

rj_in_MA · #45 10/21/11, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paquebot

Few things wrong here. You are saying that both fields were sprayed? Why? There would be no reason to spray anything on the Bt corn. Also, they are obviously different varieties and both possibly suffered from drought. As one who has been up close and personal with a lot of corn in my life, I'd definitely take the ones on the left. Next time, plant Pioneer Bt corn instead. Their lines come from Dow and Mycogen and are the ones used in sweet corn.

Martin

Just curious Martin, what is it about the corn on the left that you see as better? Honest question, I don't know much about corn and I'm curious.
And I assumed he was referring to Roundup when he mentioned spraying, but I'd be curious to know, too.

Just trying to learn.

-rj

springvalley · #46 10/21/11, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salmonslayer

Interesting thread Marc and I have a couple questions. Did I understand that you grow organic across a road from a Monsanto crop? If so do you ever get any cross pollination? I know the pollen is large in corn but we get high winds here and I was wondering if thats a concern of yours.

We grow several patches of organic heirloom corn and though we got a good crop this year, the drought really lowered what we could have gotten. Some varieties, particularly the shoepeg corn really underperformed and the horn worms were atrocious this year and the BT we applied didnt seem to deter them much. Any tips? Right now we just break off the bad ends and everything is fine but some of them went in through the side this year and ruined the whole ear.

I do not grow corn next to my neighbors field, mine is clear across the farm so no chance to cross pollinate. When he grows beans then I plant corn by him. And I never grow on the same field two years in a row, just because of bugs. I did have a few ear worms, but they seem to bother when it gets dry.. Generaly when you have a healthy plant the bugs won`t bother it. Calcium is a very big mineral when growing most crops, and most of our fields don`t have much left. If the sugars in the plant are at the right levels the insect problems are much less. We hauled 50 ton of high calcium lime on our farm a couple years ago, and that made a big differance. I also have been experimenting with milk sprayed on crops for the calcium and microbial benifits, seems to be working good. > Thanks Marc

springvalley · #47 10/21/11, 01:58 PM

I will tell you all what I planted and how tonight. > Thanks Marc

Paquebot · #48 10/21/11, 02:09 PM

Bt corn can not be sprayed with herbicides. It would be killed just as quick as if it were Golden Glow. Bt corn is strictly for corn ear worm and borer control.

The kernels on the left are more typical of ordinary dent corn. Those on the right are more typical of flint corn and closer to popcorn. It's like apples and oranges. The difference is so obvious that they should not even compared.

Martin

JDog1222 · #49 10/21/11, 03:55 PM

Paquebot is correct. These two corns can not be compared. What SV is doing is try to learn, and he is doing that. The science behind this comparison is not there, I’ll agree.

I see where this could make a few upset, someone comparing apples to oranges and saying one is better than the other. SO NOW, (paquebot) someone needs to explain to the people who don’t know what the problem with this is, so they WILL know. I know, ‘I’ spent 4 years in college learning why that is, and a LOT of money too, but some people haven’t had the opportunity for whatever reasons.

So, HERE is where the learning process can begin if someone so wishes to teach……..

There is NO reason for more information on the two crops, NONE of it will matter! We HAVE to throw out this experiment.

I don’t want to offend anyone, I DO love science, and I love to help people learn. But if we are going to do ANY comparing we HAVE to be scientific. It’s only fair to both sides. Now, does anyone know of any scientific experiments we can look at that does have merit, that we can properly scientifically compare? If BT is only for corn worm then the yield and size of the kernel can only be greater due to fertilizer, soil type, variety, and things of that nature.

We can go farther or we can leave it that SV just wanted to know what people would guess.

PurpleToad · #50 10/21/11, 04:41 PM

"Well the planting date is differant, the organic was planted two weeks later"

Wait that extra 2 weeks for the one of the right to catch up in drying time, my guess is that the color and amount of denting will be pretty much the same appearance wise.

The number of rows you get depend upon the hybrids used when planting the corn among many many other factors that have been already pointed out.

The BT corn is Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), a soil bacterium that produces insecticidal toxins. Bt is naturally widely distributed. In addition to being found in many soils around the world, it is also found on the leaves of plants and in stored grain. This was created mainly to combat the corn borer. When i was younger I remember driving at night through the rural areas with the car being constantly bombarded with moths from the corn borer. This worm caused extensive amounts of damage to corn fields here in the midwest every year. Once the BT corn has come about, the corn borer populatation has been knocked down to the point that those of you who want to raise organically can actually get a crop. So both of those 2 fields you picked from had pretty much the same benefit from the BT that was put into the corn.

Heritagefarm · #51 10/21/11, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDog1222

Paquebot is correct. These two corns can not be compared. What SV is doing is try to learn, and he is doing that. The science behind this comparison is not there, I’ll agree.

I see where this could make a few upset, someone comparing apples to oranges and saying one is better than the other. SO NOW, (paquebot) someone needs to explain to the people who don’t know what the problem with this is, so they WILL know. I know, ‘I’ spent 4 years in college learning why that is, and a LOT of money too, but some people haven’t had the opportunity for whatever reasons.

So, HERE is where the learning process can begin if someone so wishes to teach……..

There is NO reason for more information on the two crops, NONE of it will matter! We HAVE to throw out this experiment.

I don’t want to offend anyone, I DO love science, and I love to help people learn. But if we are going to do ANY comparing we HAVE to be scientific. It’s only fair to both sides. Now, does anyone know of any scientific experiments we can look at that does have merit, that we can properly scientifically compare? If BT is only for corn worm then the yield and size of the kernel can only be greater due to fertilizer, soil type, variety, and things of that nature.

We can go farther or we can leave it that SV just wanted to know what people would guess.

A controlled feeding study would be superb, and maybe weighthe various organs, etc. A big task, but if springvalley actually took it up to make some proper experiments, then I will applaud him till I'm 60.

Paquebot · #52 10/21/11, 05:14 PM

If one could find identical lines, with one having Bt and one not, the Bt variety would yield 5% or more per acre with no other insect control. Depending upon the price per bushel, that may mean a difference of $30-$40 per acre. When it's sweet corn, the primary purpose is controlling ear worms. If not, every acre of commercial sweet corn is sprayed with nastier stuff than Bt, like it or not. If it's field corn, it also controls borers and rootworm and those are the ones which seriously affect the health of field corn.

I see fields every day which have perhaps a quarter of the stalks down. They are not down from weather but from simply bending wherever a borer has chewed them. Rotation is ineffective unless it's the only field within miles or the entire state rotated. Even then, the borers are not all that particular about their host plants and will just switch to something else the following year.

By the way, corn on the right does look ready for harvest and will not dent much more than what is shown. It may, in fact, contain less moisture than the standard dent corn on the left. That looks very much like what a local grew a number of years for Old-Elm/Reinders for pigeons and poultry. Much easier for the birds to swallow. After that, doesn't matter since the gizzard does the rest of the work.

Martin

springvalley · #53 10/21/11, 05:16 PM

I have a question here, do you farm? If so, how many acres? How long? How does practical experience compare to book learning? I have farmed from the day I got out of high school, and from the time I could help my father on the farm. That adds up to 32 years not counting just helping my Father, and that education makes up for alot of college. Don`t tell me I`m doing the best I can do, that is talking down to me. I have farmed my whole life and choose now to farm better, not bigger. I have not liked the way big-Ag has been going for some time, this is not a scientific experiment, I just wanted to have a nice little game with the people on here. And don`t tell me I can`t compare these two corns, they are corn. Don't people compare breeds of cows? Not apples or oranges, which I do know the difference. And fine, I will do no more with this post. I have no idea why people have to pick others apart. And Martin, I have no idea what my neighbor was spraying but he was spraying something, this was pre plant. Could it have been herbacide then? And as far as going to college to learn farming methods that is fine, if you need to learn from the big chem. companies that write checks to the college. I learned from my Father and old friends and such. They had no formal schooling either, but they made a good living farming and doing a good job. I know I don`t know everything, FAR FROM IT, and I love to learn something new everyday. But please don`t talk down to me like I know nothing, I know more than you think. When I started farming I farmed like eveyone else, I spent many tens of thousands of dollars at the seed corn companies, fertilizer companies, landlords for more ground, having everything sprayed several times, and equipment that was ahead of the times. I did the big farming thing and don`t like it, we farmed hundreds of acres, and worked a job in town for years also. Now I don`t want to do the rat race thing anymore, I farm organic, and as I said before, that isn`t for everybody. I have always done things out of the norm, and this is the next step in life. And yes I am still learning about organic farming, who isn`t. I was just giving some folks on here some corn to look at, and compare because it is grown differently.

Paquebot · #54 10/21/11, 05:45 PM

And we still don't know the name of the variety which counts, the one on the right! (The one on the left would just have a number.) With some kernels being dented, could be a flour corn which again would be not be a fair comparison against a dent corn.

Martin

salmonslayer · #55 10/21/11, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by springvalley

I do not grow corn next to my neighbors field, mine is clear across the farm so no chance to cross pollinate. When he grows beans then I plant corn by him. And I never grow on the same field two years in a row, just because of bugs. I did have a few ear worms, but they seem to bother when it gets dry.. Generaly when you have a healthy plant the bugs won`t bother it. Calcium is a very big mineral when growing most crops, and most of our fields don`t have much left. If the sugars in the plant are at the right levels the insect problems are much less. We hauled 50 ton of high calcium lime on our farm a couple years ago, and that made a big differance. I also have been experimenting with milk sprayed on crops for the calcium and microbial benifits, seems to be working good. > Thanks Marc

Thanks Marc, we are still learning though so far we have done well. We are on track for needing lime this next year for the truck garden plots and the pasture which continues to amaze me since our soil is so full of limestone but the tests are clear.

Dont let the negative types get you down, I enjoy posts like this.

springvalley · #56 10/21/11, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paquebot

And we still don't know the name of the variety which counts, the one on the right! (The one on the left would just have a number.) With some kernels being dented, could be a flour corn which again would be not be a fair comparison against a dent corn.

Martin

Martin, I have no idea why you think the organic corn is something other than field corn. This comes from a small family owned seed company, that just happen to be Menonites. The company is "Prairie Hybrids Seed company" from Illinois. The seed is a discontinued number, which is 2241 MR which stands for Medium round seed. It is 102 growing day seed, and there are 1966 seeds per pound. I can`t lay my hands on a seed book, so can`t tell you anymore information on it, other than it is excellent for growing on hay ground, and drought resistant. This small company does a great job selecting hybrids that work for our area. The founder of the company just past away this past summer at the age of 88, and they are a wonderful family. Any more question just ask. > Marc

oldmanriver · #57 10/21/11, 09:14 PM

Gees Just eat the corn ok . I plant hickory king because I like it doesn't need a lot of rain . If came out of the mountians of eastern ky some time in the early 1800s . Good for eating grits harominy corn meal and the livestock love Only bought seed once . 9 to 10 feet stocks

Paquebot · #58 10/21/11, 09:31 PM

I don't believe that I stated that it wasn't a field corn, it's not the typical dent corn which makes up probably 99.999999% of the field corn grown in this country. (Both flint and flour types are field corn varieties with multiple uses.) There's probably a good reason why your hybrid was discontinued. Usually it's that too few want to grow it. If it were something that everyone wanted, another company would pick up the rights to it. As I said, it looks very much like some which was grown locally for a specialty market rather than entered into the commodity markets. No company is going to spend the time and expense to develop a Bt or RR line of something if there's little market for it.

Martin

sammyd · #59 10/21/11, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Bt corn can not be sprayed with herbicides. It would be killed just as quick as if it were Golden Glow. Bt corn is strictly for corn ear worm control.

Bt corn can be sprayed the same as any other corn. You can hit it with atrazine, you can hit it with 24D if you like a challenge, you can buy a triple stack variety which incorporates pest and herbcide resistance.

JDog1222 · #60 10/21/11, 09:42 PM

I hope no one thought I was talking down to them, I didn’t think I was. I was talking about the people that might actually think that organic corn is better based on a protein analysis done on these two TOTALLY different types of corn or by sight alone, AND, if someone misleads the public into thinking that, because they have not studied how to do proper science before coming to a conclusion, that’s all. I DON’T think Monsanto would like that at all! If you want to play the guessing game, which one is organic, that’s fine. But don’t drag science into it unless you plan to play by the rules! I though you were trying to make people think one was better than the other w/out the facts and being scientific about it. Sorry if I was wrong.