TransCanada\Keystone Pipeline.....Sell US ROW or We Wll SUE YOU

fordy · #41 10/20/11, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

I was just going to say the same.

Basically the entire state of Nebraska is fighting the current proposed route and it really has nothing to do with imminent domain.
An oil spill like BP's into the Gulf of Mexico would be small potatoes compared to an oil leak into the drinking water source of millions of Americans...

....................There must be some parts of this pipeline crossing federal and\or state owned land(s) in nebraska , cannot the state of nebraska prevent a for profit company from receiving a permit to build across state lands ? The pipeline company can't condemn state owned state land through imminent domain , surely . , fordy

DryHeat · #42 10/20/11, 08:24 PM

I think I've seen another big problem with tar sands development is that the process uses a LOT of water. It's a resource that'll quickly require a higher and higher percent of its energy value to extract and process, sort of like the situation with how much natural gas BTUs it takes to catalyze into the nitrogen for fertilizer to grow the corn to distill into alcohol to mix with gasoline for vehicle fuel.

Also, the problem with the concept of "energy producers" like those Koch brothers is that the energy isn't being *produced*. It's being *extracted* from a finite pool of resources which, like, say, national forests, could be rather strongly looked at as belonging to "all of us" (in some variation) rather than being the property of a couple of lucky-by-birth neocons who inherited the oil business from their daddy and are focused on planting endless propaganda linking various quasi-religious concepts with a "conservatism" that mainly consists of enabling THEM to become that much more wealthy before the extractable resources are really and truly kaput in the absence of regulations and taxes.

plowjockey · #43 10/20/11, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

The oil sands WILL BE UTILIZED, weather it is by the US, or China. Stopping the pipeline would just mean that the economic benefits from the project goes to China.

Haven't we shipped enough jobs and cash to China?

Moammar Gadhafi is dead. Plenty of Middle East oil for everybody, now.

If Oil prices continue to fall, U.S. and Candaian oil sands projects, will be shut down and mothballed, just like they have in the past. We might end up with a half-finished, bankrupt pipeline, crossing our country.

Oil sand is expensive to process and lower crude prices, will not justify that expense.

Never has.

plowjockey · #44 10/20/11, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

I was just going to say the same.

Basically the entire state of Nebraska is fighting the current proposed route and it really has nothing to do with imminent domain.
An oil spill like BP's into the Gulf of Mexico would be small potatoes compared to an oil leak into the drinking water source of millions of Americans...

Make no mistake about it.

The only ones who will ever benefit, from this pipeline project, will be the Lawyers, who will represent the endless enviromental, property rights, etc. lawsuits and injunctions, against it.

This is not 1974 and this is not Alaska.

ErinP · #45 10/20/11, 08:56 PM

I don't care who makes money.
I just don't want my aquifer jeopardized!

DianeWV · #46 10/20/11, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

Few years ago here in southern MN, the town of Hutchinson wanted a bigger natural gas line, so they got fedral money to pay for most of it, and then condemned a path of entire farms for their route - they were condemning the land and would pick the actual path later, as they were digging - no pre-planning, not working out costs & issues with the landowners. Farmers got together & hired lawyers, as _nothing_ was getting paid for, nothing was done right, tile lines were being damaged, etc. etc.

Made no difference, judge was on their side, actually things were getting decided in court a day ahead of schedule, blah blah.

Was just a miserable, terrible deal, but - no one cared. Folks in the city got their cheap natural gas, and life went on.

In the end, if it don't happen to you, then it's no big deal, and people have to have their gas, so sit down & keep quiet, no big deal......

I disageee with that of couse, but how it is in todays world.

--->Paul

I agree 100% with Rambler. It is easy to discuss when it is NOT YOUR LAND being targeted for eminient domain or condemnation proceedings.

When a domestic gas co proposes this type of project which involves interstate transmission of gas, application is submitted to FERC, hoops are jumped.......then most likely approval will be granted with the FERC order.

Prior to application or approval, landmen/land agents can seek ROW acquisition.

Once project has the stamp of approval, the gas co. has the authority and legal backing to condemn a portion or all of your land for the ROW, launch sites, appurtenances, etc.

When companies have the legal power of eminient domain over the landowner, it removes all the leverage and negotiation away from the landowner. The gas co. reps know this. It's a royal screwing. Bend over and brace yourself.

Bandit · #47 10/21/11, 12:19 AM

Regarding the case of Kelo vs. City of New London Ct. referenced by several posters above , where the Supreme Court ruled that it was ok for the City to take over 90 acres of homes and business and in 2000 for a cost of over $ 80 million to give it to private developers to receive higher taxes .
I was based out of the USCG Sta. adjacent to Fort Trumbull and had to drive through the area in question to get in or out , It is still an empty waste land , this Summer , 11 years later .
http://www.uscg.mil/d1/sectlis/units...mg/homepic.jpg
The Story
http://www.ij.org/about/920

texican · #48 10/21/11, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy in PA

But there is no economic benefit to anyone but the oil companies. This type of oil is highly labor intensive and expensive. The chance of causing damage is also high, because of the length of the pipeline. Eminent domain is OK as long as you get the benefit & none of the downside.

Oil companies rarely own the pipeline... usually a completely separate entity, that's responsible for transmission of the crude. And, believe it or not, no pipeline company goes into the long laborious process and plans on deliberately losing any product.

Labor intensive and expensive means the exploration company spends more money on infrastructure on site, more technical employees and more support personnel, all of which make some of the best money around (for mostly non degreed personnel) which stays in the communities...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

OK, I can see that it is time for a little economics lesson. You say there is no economic benefit to anyone but the "oil companies" and then you turn around and say that it is highly labor intensive.

Can not you see how silly this sounds?

You see, labor is provided by people. These people have very good paying jobs. These people make money, and then they spend money. In Canada. In the US (takes a lot of folks to build and maintain a pipeline). This money gets circulated through the economy. Our economy. Not the Saudi Arabian economy. Not the Venezuelan economy. Our economy.

Jobs are good things. When you have a bunch of people with good jobs they spend money, providing jobs for other folks, who spend money, providing............ well, I hope you get the message.

What you said.

Also, oil companies aren't these faceless entities that just float around in spaceships sucking up resources... they're on the ground, providing real jobs, and creating real wealth, which every govt. entity from local to the feds (and whatever their equivalents might be in Canada) with a myriad treasure trove of taxes.

Also, I do believe in the last decade or so, with development of oil and gas deposits, that Canada's currency has benefited greatly. Maybe our Canadian members can comment on this... is there another reason the currency has strengthened?

A country with a socialist bent, without resources, is soon a nation of poverty... let them discover true wealth, such as large carbon (oil/gas) deposits, and the fuel for humanity is richly rewarded... [at least countries occupied by Westerners... apparently the "Curse of Oil" doesn't work in non western and third world countries}

I'd not depend on Libyan oil... or oil from any of the new "Arab Spring" countries..... I think the shelf life of their newfound liberties is going to be short... it may increase supply and temporarily lower prices... but not for long...

tinknal · #49 10/21/11, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plowjockey

Moammar Gadhafi is dead. Plenty of Middle East oil for everybody, now.

If Oil prices continue to fall, U.S. and Candaian oil sands projects, will be shut down and mothballed, just like they have in the past. We might end up with a half-finished, bankrupt pipeline, crossing our country.

Oil sand is expensive to process and lower crude prices, will not justify that expense.

Never has.

You would have to be a Pollyanna to believe that these resources will not be utilized. You would also have to be foolish to think that world events will not continue to unfold, climactic events will not occur and oil will not again rise. The beauty of a project like this is that once it is in operation it will continue despite prices.

As far as that goes, having a pipeline ROW across your property really doesn't affect how you can use the property very much. You can still use the property for normal agricultural activities. about all you cannot do is dig deep holes, erect buildings, or plant trees over the pipeline.

ErinP · #50 10/21/11, 09:21 AM

To the original issue, we have a natural gas pipeline that runs through my corner of the world. It was pretty obvious when it went it where it was located, but after a year or so, the grass grows back, the wheat is replanted, and you can't even tell anymore. In the appropriate places, t's no big deal, really.

Quote:

A country with a socialist bent, without resources, is soon a nation of poverty...

True.
But for the leg through Nebraska it's an obvious case of--Which resource is more important? Drinking water or oil?

I'd hope the answer is obvious.

Fat Charlie · #51 10/21/11, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texican

Also, I do believe in the last decade or so, with development of oil and gas deposits, that Canada's currency has benefited greatly. Maybe our Canadian members can comment on this... is there another reason the currency has strengthened?

Has it strengthened against other world currencies, or just our pathetic excuse for money?

arabian knight · #52 10/21/11, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plowjockey

Moammar Gadhafi is dead. Plenty of Middle East oil for everybody, now.

If Oil prices continue to fall, U.S. and Candaian oil sands projects, will be shut down and mothballed, just like they have in the past. We might end up with a half-finished, bankrupt pipeline, crossing our country.

Oil sand is expensive to process and lower crude prices, will not justify that expense.

Never has.

That is a false look at the future.
And the price of oil is up by 2 bucks a barrel just today. So much in the thinking that just because some mid east leader is dead the price will go down.
No the price will continue to go UP.
And we need to have oil and gas from this country, and from our friendly neighbors as well. Both countries benefit also.
We need to drill as much as we can possibly do in the US, also.
If those that think gong green will wean this country off of oil is sadly mistaken big time. Oil will still be in huge demands for many years into the future.

Cindy in PA · #53 10/21/11, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

OK, I can see that it is time for a little economics lesson. You say there is no economic benefit to anyone but the "oil companies" and then you turn around and say that it is highly labor intensive.

Can not you see how silly this sounds?

You see, labor is provided by people. These people have very good paying jobs. These people make money, and then they spend money. In Canada. In the US (takes a lot of folks to build and maintain a pipeline). This money gets circulated through the economy. Our economy. Not the Saudi Arabian economy. Not the Venezuelan economy. Our economy.

Jobs are good things. When you have a bunch of people with good jobs they spend money, providing jobs for other folks, who spend money, providing............ well, I hope you get the message.

BS
Ok, so capital intensive(?) it's mostly done by machines at the refinery. Good jobs (?) will be in Canada. If it's like all the rest of the oil, it will go on the world market & be sold as a commodity anyway. If China pays the most, it will get it.

tinknal · #54 10/21/11, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy in PA

BS
Ok, so capital intensive(?) it's mostly done by machines at the refinery. Good jobs (?) will be in Canada. If it's like all the rest of the oil, it will go on the world market & be sold as a commodity anyway. If China pays the most, it will get it.

Ahhhhh, the old "BS" response.

Since you know exactly what the economic impact of the project would be why don't you tell us? Dollars and cents. I'll give you a couple of days.

tinknal · #55 10/21/11, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy in PA

BS
Ok, so capital intensive(?) it's mostly done by machines at the refinery. Good jobs (?) will be in Canada. If it's like all the rest of the oil, it will go on the world market & be sold as a commodity anyway. If China pays the most, it will get it.

Apparently you were not paying attention. Where does this machinery come from? Who builds it? who operates it? Who maintain it? Who makes replacement parts?

Are you aware that the US and Canada are equal trading partners? Do you know what that means? It means that money paid (and spent) in Canada will cross the border, and vise versa.

The pipeline will require a vast infrastructure. This means jobs, American jobs. It means refinery jobs. Truck driver jobs, office jobs, computer jobs, jobs that you and I cannot even imagine exist.

You apparently believe in the worst kind of NIMBYISM. If you are going to behave as you believe then you better throw away your keys and hitch the horse to your buggy.

arabian knight · #56 10/21/11, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

Apparently you were not paying attention. Where does this machinery come from? Who builds it? who operates it? Who maintain it? Who makes replacement parts?

Are you aware that the US and Canada are equal trading partners? Do you know what that means? It means that money paid (and spent) in Canada will cross the border, and vise versa.

The pipeline will require a vast infrastructure. This means jobs, American jobs. It means refinery jobs. Truck driver jobs, office jobs, computer jobs, jobs that you and I cannot even imagine exist.

You apparently believe in the worst kind of NIMBYISM. If you are going to behave as you believe then you better throw away your keys and hitch the horse to your buggy.

Well said.

texican · #57 10/21/11, 10:05 PM

I thought the Oglalla aquifer was almost depleted... am I wrong? Is it being recharged as fast as it's being drawn down? I'd gladly love to find out I'm wrong, and the Oglalla is healthy, doing okay, and is going to last forever.

What do Nebraskans do with their rural sewage? feed lot waste? and other nasties that can seep into the aquifer?

Are all the gas/diesel tanks in the state (public service stations, bulk fuel depots, farm tanks) secure against any and all spills?

I'm all for areas that don't want to engage in modern society being insulated from it.... but they can't claim NIMBY when they do enjoy the bennies.

Explorer · #58 10/21/11, 10:42 PM

Here is a map showing the drastic declines in the Ogallala aquifier:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...Q9QEwAg&dur=32

Explorer · #59 10/21/11, 10:44 PM

Try this one:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Ogall...iw=942&bih=453

ErinP · #60 10/21/11, 11:02 PM

Yep, it's declining at an alarming rate. However, it's not even remotely "empty."
And, because it's the ground water source for several states, a LOT of people are hoping it doesn't "go dry" anytime soon...

So far as other pollutants, you can bet that if something as specific and wide spread as the pipeline was going in, it would be fought also.

And this whole NIMBY thing makes me thing you're not understanding the issue.
There is a proposed alternate route through eastern NE. But the existing route goes through a very fragile area--The Sandhills.