Question for those who know about electricity

Electrical Code is supposed to cover all scenarios. Today the GFI uses the ground wire as a reference point for the neutral.

Consider this. If the washing machine is ON and the neutral breaks in the circuit towards the breaker of fuse. At that point all the way to the break the NEUTRAL will be HOT. Yes, it will shock you. If the neutral is shorted to the frame of the washer, the Ground will carry the current and provide a path to blow the fuse. It is a safety designed, redundant, current circuit source for the neutral.

Possibly.
It isn't a subject conducive to being explained with a few lines on an internet forum.
When I took the NEC 2008 course at the local community college, there were several of us "novices" in the room going for our electrician's license or taking it as part of an electrical engineering degree.
We probably spent a few hours discussing this particular question.
My personal experience with people is there are two kinds.
Those that want to know and those that don't.
If you do, you listen and learn.

As the first post of this quote pointed out (and many others) it is a built-in redundancy. But it is not EXACTLY the same as the neutral (white wire).
The neutral is a current carrying conductor, with 0 volts usually carried, and it's insulated.
The ground is a non-insulated grounding conductor that shouldn't carry current at all, unless there is a ground fault.
The ground is also connected back at the buss bar, with the neutrals, so it IS part of the circuit, should a fault occur. It's not "connected to nothing".

Sounds the same, but isn't.

This and the rest of the class was money I paid for myself and consider well spent. I'll tell you for free, but won't waste time arguing.
If you want to strip the ground wire out of your house (OP) and use it anyway, feel free, just don't ask if you think you already know the answer and won't listen.

Now, the other interesting thing I learned, and THIS MAY be what the OP was after, and just WOULDN'T say, is that the NEC code book is NOT written by electricians.
That's right.
It's written primarily by lawyers and insurance companies.
Sure, there are sound electrical principles in there, but that's not the organization that writes the book.
So, yes, there are extra things in there for safety that benefit insurers that may seem overly protective, but they work well.

If that's what he wanted to hear, then just ask that specific question.
"Who writes the NEC code book?"

But don't ask an a question if you don't really want to know the answer.

Ok, if I have this right, you are suggesting an open circuit in the neutral side, between the washer and the panel. You are also suggesting that the washer is grounded via a short in the neutral to the frame. Thus the ground now serves as a neutral, carrying the current to the panel and back to ground..... Where is the load increase that is supposed to blow the fuse or trip the breaker? It would appear to me that the washing machine will just continue to function normally and the current that would normally flow through the neutral is now carried by the ground... to the same destination. In the event that the neutral in your scenario was not shorted to the machine... then the machine would simply not function due to the open in the neutral.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

well, I would really really like to know the answer... but I am one of those "show me" kinda guys. I dont do well with coz I said so, or some other "authority" says so. It has to make sense. So far all I have been able to glean is "redundant safety", when what I am looking for is the scenario of how a short or open circuit in the neutral, or hot either one or combined will produce a dangerous result that would be avoided with the use of the bare ground wire. I havent seen that.....yet.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

Hubby is explaining it better to me.

The bare wire is fastened to the body of the machine, not the motor. If the motor shorts to the body, it goes to the ground wire because the neutral wire is fastened to the motor. If the neutral were fastened to the body, the returning extra voltage would zap you.

I am curious here... how did I complete a circuit between the white wire and the sink? I tend not to stick a finger into the socket when plugging in my razor! (which oddly enough does NOT have the third wire plug) I also find it amazing that for a hundred years people did not electrocute themselves in this manner when all of those homes and bathrooms were wired just exactly as your scenario describes.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

Then remove all ground wires from your house and carry on.
it shouldn't take too long to "show' you........

You've already been given several scenarios.

As I said, it took a few hours to explain to some satisfactorily in class.
Maybe you should try that before electrocution.

Not according to theory... electricity will seek the path of least resistance. so if we fastened the neutral to the machine... like it was done for many many years... the returning current will be carried back to the box, the dead short blows the fuse and no one is harmed.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

Yes, I have been given several scenarios.... of which none demonstrate the need for the third wire in the real world. The neutral can serve the same purpose..... and did for a great many years.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

OK the prong has broken off of the neutral wire inside the plug but you don't know it. The wire going into the motor has been chewed by a mouse and is touching the body. you put your hand onto the body and lean in and turn on the washer while standing on a wet floor barefoot. No third wire in the wiring, where is the electricity going? Through the person convinced there's no need for it that won't be convinced no matter what!

yh you have been given the answer several times. you refuse to accept it. the only way you will accept it is by not using the ground wire and getting a shock. in the real world things break in ways we never thought of the ground wire protects people from shock in those cases. go back to the washing machine with on open neutral. without the ground when you go to check on the washing machine as soon as you touch it you are now the neutral no fuse/breaker is blown because there has been no short, no excessive current flow. with the ground wire you have a backup to keep you safe.

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Greg

First, let me say I respect your curiosity for asking. Electricity is a difficult subject to understand if you don't have a solid grasp of the fundamentals behind it. But I will try to explain your desired scenarios in a simple manner. I'll use the washing machine example.

Ungrounded washing machine: Black(hot) wire to motor, Neutral(white) wire to motor, metal case ungrounded. If black shorts to case, case is now hot, shock potential to user.

Grounded washing machine: Black&white to motor, case grounded with 3rd wire. Black shorts to case, causes short circuit to ground, breaker trips due to excessive current draw, eliminating shock risk. If there is a partial short and the breaker does not trip, the low-resistance ground path will only have a minimal voltage drop so the case voltage will be only slightly above ground, no shock risk.

Case wired to neutral: Black&white to motor, white also attached to case. This is the scenario you claim is safe. If black shorts to case, breaker trips as above. However, if the appliance is switched on, and the white wire is open, now the case is hot & is a shock hazard. One very possible time this could happen is while plugging in or unplugging an appliance. If the hot prong made contact before the neutral, the case is hot until the neutral makes contact. Or it could also be caused by a white open fault between the outlet and the panel. This is why you can't ground the case using the neutral.

There are many other reasons why the ground path improves safety, but I think this scenario is the clearest. There were also two or three other good explanations in this thread. If you're still not convinced, you need to study harder until you understand it.

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That silly electricity, so mysterious, handy and deadly.....It might help to read up a little on "potential". A fancy word for turning your body into an electric motor. The ground minimizes the opportunity for potential to occur. No potential= no current flow.

Ok! Finally a scenario that fits the question. I do have to wonder what the odds would be to have both things happen at the same time though. Prolly about the same as getting struck by lightening during a year long drought, but at least your scenario is possible and makes sense if it were to occur.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

Thanks for all the imput, I now understand how an open in the neutral side of the circuit can possibly create an issue if other conditions happen to be met at the same time without the presence of the third backup ground wire.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

Methinks YH realized there might be a lot of electrical things "teaching him a lesson" if he didn't get it LOL (CarolT puts the wire tools and map away)

There were several good answers given, but this is the best example of what you were looking for. A ground wire is usually not essential, just better.

Actually that was never an issue, I wired my house and shop to code... well, sorta, some of the box sizes may not be quite what they should have been, and there are a couple circuits that may have an extra outlet but I did use the proper wire sizes, and did do the whole ground wire thing. My issue all along was that I could NOT sort out the "why" it was needed. Once you described a given scenario where it could prove to be a problem, then it makes sense.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

All right. I had to got to work and you were taxing one of two brain cells I got left.

Yes, the white wire does go back to the grounded buss bar.
But, WHAT IF..........the motor on the appliance shorts out.......so bad that the white wire connection inside the motor, burns out the connector completely. Not the solid core wire on the romax, but the braided wire inside the appliance.
Now what do you have?
A hot wire (black) running from the breaker to the thing in your hand.
AND, no connection back to ground bercause there is no dedicated wire to do this.
Where does the juice go?
That's right.
Right thru YOU to ground.
Maybe you survive, maybe you don't.
Roll the dice and play the odds, but the guys who do this for a living figured out a way to prevent this in almost every circumstance possible - run a seperate, dedicated wire to ground,.

Now, the black is SUPPOSED to carry 110v and the white 0 volts.
SUPPOSED to.
I have found circuits where someone crossed them up and I ended up with 60 volts on each.
Wasn'tb right, but the outlet and appliance (which can't talk) still worked.
The only thing is the white wire that was SUPPOSED to be going to ground , now wasn't.
Another case where a dedicated wire going to ground will save your butt in case something unexpected and unfortunate happens.

Sorry to be short, but as in the case of the thread where the woman's DH cussed her, you saw how frustrating it can be when people don't "get it" fast enough.

Sure, the odds are small, but sometimes electricity won't give you a second chance to beat it.

Hope this helps.
I gotta get back to work.

"Not according to theory... electricity will seek the path of least resistance. so if we fastened the neutral to the machine... like it was done for many many years... the returning current will be carried back to the box, the dead short blows the fuse and no one is harmed."

current takes ALL paths to ground. the majority of current will take the best path to ground, but current takes All paths to ground. two or more paths would be a parallel circuit.

if the one neutral to ground were lost, the human body would be the only path to ground and at about .010 amps across the heart,,,you wake up dead.