Raw Milk vs. Peanuts

billooo2 · #61 05/27/11, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipchic

Don't forget though before you take that path why pasteurization of milk was introduced in the first place. Granted much has changed in sanitation all around since then but pasteurization of milk happened for a very good reason

Thank you for the caution.

Home Harvest · #62 05/27/11, 01:08 PM

I am not against raw milk. In fact we routinely drink raw milk from our goats. However, I see a couple of flaws in your analogy. Most have already been pointed out, but not addressed that I can tell.

1) Peanut allergies is a problem with the person, not the product. I can eat peanuts all day, every day. Why ban a product that I enjoy just because someone else is allergic to it.

2) You say they banned raw milk because it is "too dangerous". It may be semantics, but I don't think they banned it because it is too dangerous, but because there was a safer alternative. You can argue all day whether or not pasteurized milk is actaully safer, I'm just saying that that was their rationale. If Louis Pasteur had never been born we'd all be buying raw milk at the supermarket and taking our chances.

3) If you convinced them to legalize raw milk sales tomorrow, you'd still see most dairies using pasteurization. Why? Because we live in a litigious society. I won't sell my milk due to this exact reason. The first time someone gets sick, they will assume it was due to the milk, and you will be in court. Even with all your records and data, how do you think the jury will react?

I don't disagree with your distrust of the USDA and FDA, however this is the world we live in.

arabian knight · #63 05/27/11, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy Rimmer

So long as American Idol is on at the expected time, and people can still buy their coke and cheetos.... well, not much will change.

You got that right. With Over 100 Million that voted in the finalists show. Nobody will pay any attention at all.
And now Americas Got Talent stats on Tuesday night YEAH.
And with this weekend so Many car races on, who cares what is what in the world.
Movies coming out Cowboys and Aliens later on this summer. That one should be a good one.
And better not have the president speak during AGT either. No WAY will that be a good thing.

PhilJohnson · #64 05/27/11, 06:09 PM

I've worked on a farm, I've milked cows, I have friends that have dairy farms, plus I've worked in a milk processing plant for at least 3-4 years. I also pick up milk. There is a very good reason for regulation and a very good reason for pasteurization. There are farmers out there that are so dirty it is ridiculous. Some of the farmers have gotten in trouble for dumping bleach in their milk in an effort to get their bacterial count down. Another one got caught blending goats milk into his milk. I deal with mostly Amish farms. Most of the Amish farmers are so dang cheap they won't run the gas motor to provide a fresh tank of cool water. I had one farm where the water smelled so nasty that I finally pulled the plug on the tank. The water didn't even drain out of the tank at first, what came out looked like a big turd. Then after the milk tank had laid a deuce the tank drained. Now keep in mind this guy would leave the lids off his cans so all that nasty water would splash right into the can. Other farmers would have manure and urine splash into their milking buckets. That is why milk is pasteurized. In a perfect world milkers would never fall off, somatic cell counts wouldn't matter, and cows would never get sick. But it isn't and that is why we need regulation.

The plant I worked at was also dirty and without the inspectors constantly hounding the owner things would have gotten to the point of being dangerous to consumers. Paint peeling off the walls and falling into the milk, tanks not getting washed, mixing hot loads with good loads so they would pass. Regulations are for people who could care less about how their product harms people as long as they make money.

linn · #65 05/27/11, 06:59 PM

And this is the milk that is sent to plants to be pasteurized and we are supposed to think it is safe to give it to our kids. Give me a good old family milk cow any time. You have just reinforced what we have been saying about the unsanitary conditions of many of the dairies that are sending milk to processing plants.

PhilJohnson · #66 05/28/11, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linn

And this is the milk that is sent to plants to be pasteurized and we are supposed to think it is safe to give it to our kids. Give me a good old family milk cow any time. You have just reinforced what we have been saying about the unsanitary conditions of many of the dairies that are sending milk to processing plants.

I've never gotten sick from pasteurized milk and I don't know anyone else that has either. It might go against most people want to believe here but very large dairies are usually the cleanest, same goes for creameries that produce finished diary products. It is the small time operators that are the most likely to try and skirt cleanliness in my experience.

linn · #67 05/28/11, 11:09 AM

Is the milk from these clean large dairies separated from the dairies that are dirty? I don't think so, it is all mixed together. You may not have gotten sick drinking pasteurized milk, but I prefer to use milk from my cow. I can control the environment and conditions and don't have to worry about drinking milk produced in filthy conditions.

billooo2 · #68 05/29/11, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Home Harvest

I am not against raw milk. In fact we routinely drink raw milk from our goats. However, I see a couple of flaws in your analogy. Most have already been pointed out, but not addressed that I can tell.

2) You say they banned raw milk because it is "too dangerous". It may be semantics, but I don't think they banned it because it is too dangerous, but because there was a safer alternative. You can argue all day whether or not pasteurized milk is actaully safer, I'm just saying that that was their rationale. If Louis Pasteur had never been born we'd all be buying raw milk at the supermarket and taking our chances.

3) If you convinced them to legalize raw milk sales tomorrow, you'd still see most dairies using pasteurization. Why? Because we live in a litigious society. I won't sell my milk due to this exact reason. The first time someone gets sick, they will assume it was due to the milk, and you will be in court. Even with all your records and data, how do you think the jury will react?

I don't disagree with your distrust of the USDA and FDA, however this is the world we live in.

I have been told that Louis Pateur said that milk should NEVER be pasteurized.

I agree that the majority of milk consumed will still be pasteurized. I would never want to drink milk from a truck hauling milk to a processor.......I would not know where it came from......and too many risk factors for my comfort.

Heritagefarm · #69 05/29/11, 09:27 AM

I find that a tad ridiculous... Why would Louis develop pasteurization, then say it should not be used?

Tracy Rimmer · #70 05/29/11, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

I find that a tad ridiculous... Why would Louis develop pasteurization, then say it should not be used?

Because he didn't develop it for use with milk -- he developed it for use with wine and beer. It wasn't until much later that someone decided it should be used with milk.

PhilJohnson · #71 05/29/11, 10:46 AM

I'll stick with pasteurized milk. Unless I milked the cow myself I have no idea how the milk was handled. The arguments against pasteurization are pretty weak. About the only difference is the taste and the vastly lower bacteria count in pasteurization. Part of the taste difference I suspect is because raw milk is also whole milk. Until bacteria disappear from raw milk I don't think we'll be seeing a huge push for it to be allowed for general consumption.

Tracy Rimmer · #72 05/29/11, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

I'll stick with pasteurized milk. Unless I milked the cow myself I have no idea how the milk was handled. The arguments against pasteurization are pretty weak. About the only difference is the taste and the vastly lower bacteria count in pasteurization. Part of the taste difference I suspect is because raw milk is also whole milk. Until bacteria disappear from raw milk I don't think we'll be seeing a huge push for it to be allowed for general consumption.

And that is your choice. It should be available to you, and no one that I, personally, know who is pushing for sales of raw milk to be legalized is saying that those who prefer it shouldn't be able to have it.

What we are saying is that the bureaucrats have no place telling us that, should we wish to buy a gallon of milk from a neighbour whom we know and trust, that we aren't "allowed" to, or that he can lose his farm and even face prison time for selling it to us.

It's wrong, because when government has the authority to tell you what you can and cannot eat, they have control of the food, in general. Ask someone who lived in Nazi Germany how that worked out.

linn · #73 05/29/11, 11:32 AM

You stated that very well Tracy. None of the raw milk advocates that I know of wish to force raw milk on anyone. On the other hand, many pasteurized milk advocates don't seem to think we should have a choice. I could care less whether someone drinks raw or pasteurized milk as long as they have the freedom to choose, but I do care when the government turns into Big Brother and then someone tells me it is for my own good.

MichaelK! · #74 05/29/11, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billooo2

If I may 'pick your brain,' as a food microbiologist.......could you comment on some claims that I have heard???.....

1. Pasteurization killls the bacteria, but does not remove it, so the dead bacteria is still in the pasteurized milk.

2. As the bacteria is killed, the cell membrane may break and can release very minute amounts of toxins.

3. Pasteurized milk is not routinely tested for these toxins after it is pasteurized.

4. With some people, these dead bactieria and toxins can trigger a release of histamines in the consumer's body. This can result in a (usually very mild) iflammatory response. And this is a possible esxplanation of why some people who usually drink raw milk complain of "not feeling well" when they drink pasteurized milk? (Their body is not used to dealing with this. And their symptoms typically consist of a mild upset stomach, increased 'mucus' production). Is this a possibility?

I know that it is a real concern when human patients are undergoing treatment for a bacterial infection. Administration of antibiotics can kill bacteria in the bloodstream, causing them to release toxins into the blood.

The same mechanism may be happening in milk too. The question then is it better to ingest a small quantity of bacterial toxin remaining after pathogenic bacteria are killed, or to injest live, virulent, toxin producing bacteria?

**ladycat** · #75 05/29/11, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy Rimmer

And that is your choice. It should be available to you, and no one that I, personally, know who is pushing for sales of raw milk to be legalized is saying that those who prefer it shouldn't be able to have it.

What we are saying is that the bureaucrats have no place telling us that, should we wish to buy a gallon of milk from a neighbour whom we know and trust, that we aren't "allowed" to, or that he can lose his farm and even face prison time for selling it to us.

It's wrong, because when government has the authority to tell you what you can and cannot eat, they have control of the food, in general. Ask someone who lived in Nazi Germany how that worked out.

Amen!

Quote:

Originally Posted by linn

You stated that very well Tracy. None of the raw milk advocates that I know of wish to force raw milk on anyone. On the other hand, many pasteurized milk advocates don't seem to think we should have a choice. I could care less whether someone drinks raw or pasteurized milk as long as they have the freedom to choose, but I do care when the government turns into Big Brother and then someone tells me it is for my own good.

Amen again!

springvalley · #76 05/29/11, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linn

You stated that very well Tracy. None of the raw milk advocates that I know of wish to force raw milk on anyone. On the other hand, many pasteurized milk advocates don't seem to think we should have a choice. I could care less whether someone drinks raw or pasteurized milk as long as they have the freedom to choose, but I do care when the government turns into Big Brother and then someone tells me it is for my own good.

Very well said once again Linn, I am getting so tired of beating this issue to death my head hurts. All we as RAW "real milk" advocates want is the choice, thats all nothing more. Enough said, once again. Humbley Yours, > Marc