E85 , In your NON E85 Vehicle......?

We are in a world situation where corn price for 'the rest of the world' didn't rise to $7. Actually the USA dollar deflated to a very poor value, and so both corn and crude oil have risen a great deal.

With crude oil at $100+ per barrel, $7 corn works out yet.

Have to look at all the world ecconomy to figure out what's going on. Corn or fuel really isn't worth any more these days. Our USA dollar is dropping in value.

In the long run, that would be good for the USA - our exports are looking good to other countries, and our manufaturers in the USA can compete with imports much better. So the low dollar value has good points.

But like you, I don't like the high fuel prices and other effects we also get from it.

But to your point, I undestand ethanol plants are just in the green right now with $7 corn.

As well, most large users of grains have a good grain buying policy and plan ahead, just like a feed mill or any other larger user - they are still getting some $4 corn delivered that they contracted in 2009 & 2010, so their 'total' cost is less than $7 with averaging.

We might see corn spike to unbelievable highs in the next 2 weeks, with the flooding and cold weather going on..... Not many people will actually buy grain at the high prices we might see coming up; but it will be a way to influence how many acres are planted and so forth.

--->Paul

Several places locally offer non-Ethanold gas.

Actually deflation would have caused the price of the USD to go up in relation to the money supply. Inflation causes it to lose value. Deflation is good.

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I'm an environmentalist, left wing, Ron Paul loving Prius driver with a farm. If you have a problem with that, kindly go take a leap.

Could we see a bit of proof? Specially since its impossable!

I don't have any proof to offer. I live right in the middle of corn country and this is a piece of information I have been hearing for a while. The local cash croppers are talking about this and I have heard it on several talk radio stations, two of which are local, one or two national.

And why would this be impossible? The way Monsanto is altering soy and corn genetics, seems very possible to me. Guess I should have said 'I heard this is being pursued.'

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The inputs to raise all that corn are negative to the environment. Hundreds of gallons of diesel, chemical fertilizers, weed killers, insect killers, etc. The inputs to the ethonol plants are huge. I sort of doubt that the whole process is an environmental plus and economically could not survive without subsidies. I watched two ethonol plants go in and they each had to have their own electric sub-station, huge natural gas line piped in plus they use ridiculous amounts of water. And the price of corn is out of sight. Cash corn at the local ethonol plant this a.m. was $7.08.

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This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

Why wouldn't cross polination be possible? The GM Soy has already been shown to contaminate other fields through cross polination making the assurance of organic crops difficult if not impossible. Not to mention the whole idea of converting food production to fuel production is about as stupid a thing as any people could do. A biodiesel derrived from algae is far more promising option for the future. Algae returns far more energy value and can be grown in areas unable to support food crops. The best choice is to make use of the petroleum sources we have now while doing research and development of promising new energy options. Not wasting time and money on politically motivated half measures that do more harm than good.

They do care you see, they care about the car and small engine industry...

They want all the old cars gone from the road, crushed and recycled and for you to buy brand new cars, trucks, and anything else that requires fuel..

No "they" aren't! Every bit of field corn out there has about the same food value. In ethanol production, one bushel of corn provides 2.8 gallons of ethanol plus 17.5 pounds of dried distiller grains for animal feed or 13.5 pounds of gluten feed, plus 2.6 pounds of gluten meal and 1.5 pounds of corn oil. Same bushel otherwise would produce 31.5 pounds of starch or 33 pounds of sweetener.

Martin

As I corrected my self in saying..this is what I have been hearing all over.

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Because the way you get ethanol is to feed yeasts that make ethanol. No feed value no ethanol.
In other words there's no way to get energy OUT of something that doesn't have energy IN it!

Dont sweat it. I hear lots of stupid stuff on the radio ,at the cafe and even right here. LOL I suppose thats why folks here question EVERY THING!

We have been running E-10 in Wisconsin for maybe 20 years and before that we would visit friends in Iowa and get it down there. I can honestly say I have never had a fuel related problem caused by E-10.

I find it ludicrous that Brazil ran almost there whole country on sugar cane or beet sugar (I can't remember which one) ethanol but for some reason we simply can't do it...Is it technology or just the refusal to change and adapt?

As for E-15, I have run it in my 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 with no problems. To me the power seemed the same and gas milage was within a mile per gallon of "regular" gas.

Frankly, I would do my best if I were to buy a new car, or truck, to try and get one set-up to run E-85. The cost difference is substantial enough to make it worthwhile to me. The other alternative that I would look at is a Propane powered vehicle. Propane is far less expensive than gasoline and has the benefit of burning very clean and allowing you to extend oil change intervals.

It is time to SERIOUSLY develop and mainstream alternative fuels. Stop playing, stop experimenting and embrace the technology and the obvious need.

Brazil has a very large area of their country that is well suited to grow sugar cane, and doesn't grow corn so well. They also don't have quite as much personal transportation going on; The big cities commuter cars of course, but the interior of the country is basically dirt paths that don't get traveled so much.

Thus, they can grow a lot of ethanol compared to the amount of fuel they use.

Here in the USA only Florida and Hawaii are well suited for major sugar cane production; and in both cases it is being phased out - in Hawaii hotels are more profitable than cane fields; and in Florida the tree huggers got the govt to buy out the cane fields in favor of returning it to nature.

So, we just can't grow cane here in the USA in any amount to be worthwhile. There might be some cane that grows a little bit here and there; but it's not the high-yield, good stuff needed. It's a great idea, of course sugar cane is more gallons of ethanol per acre; but we just can't in the USA - we don't have the climate.

What we have is lots of corn, where the starch can be convered to sugar easily. And we are used to handling, storing, and working with lots and lots of corn.

After fermenting, about 17 lbs of the corn is left as good livestock feed, as mentioned, so about 30% of every bu of corn going into ethanol is returned to the food chain as feed. For those who hate ethanol - this 17 lbs of returned feed is always left out of their number crunching. When you include this obvious asset, corn ethanol comes out postive energy return, over the resources needed to plant, fertilize, harvest, haul, and distill a corn crop into ethanol and feed mash. You do get a net energy gain, tho it is not large and not _the_ answer to our energy needs, it is a step down the path and a positive one..

Some of the seed companies have developed a high-starch corn that is more suited for ethanol - you get a bit more sugar out of each bu of this type of corn. It is not devoid of nutrients, tha's just nonsense. But it is a tad more valuable to the ethanol plants vs use as regular feed.

In years past they also developed high-oil corn, which some processors were supposed to prefer; as well a special non-saturated fat soybean has been developed that much of our frier oil is coming from, look up Vistive soybeans. Many corn, soybean, and wheat plants have been bred to fill nitche markets like this, that high-starch type that works better in the ethanol plants is just another. Not that big a deal when one understands it.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about ethanol production. Some folks think it's the world's greatest answer - and it is not. It is only a small stepping stone. Some people think it's bad, or a step backwards - and that's not right either. Corn ethanol contributes a small net energy gain, as well as openning us up to alternative energy ideas, and helping our air quality. Someday we will find something else, but not in the near term.

Anyone have any idea how much it would cost to convert all the gas stationes to having a CNG/ LNG station, devlivery pipes to each one, and the number of wells and cross-county pipelines we'd have to build to make _that_ work??? Holy moly. I'd much rather depend upon the corn in my back yard than some ng pipeline coming 1000 miles out of Canada or wherever that ng is. Ethanol makes more sense for today than someof those sorts of alternatives.

--->Paul

...................Paul , there is another issue here that is important but not much discussed by The Politicans who accept large bribes\political contributions from those involved in Ethanol production , that being , All the Subsidies being pumped into Ethanol Should and Could have been utilized too promote and develop LNG fueling stations and infrastructure too motivate the 3 major vehicle mfgers too produce LNG vehicles right off the assembly line !
...................Ethanol production and infrastructure is Artificially stimulated via Fed subsidies , were it not for Chinese deficit dollars too get Efuel off the ground , IT never would have been produced as far as I can Tell ! We have world FOOD shortages and we're utilizing our corn production for Efuel production , a total MIS allocation of Scarce resources created by a Few Elected Senators and Congressman who are being paid|bribed for their support . Efuel would die a very Quick death were Fed funding too be withdrawn . , fordy

Ya but ALL cars right now can use a blend of ethanol. BUT with LNG I can't afford to switch over my car nor would I want to. But I sure can use E10~! And have for nearly 20 years now in WI.

Explain why subsidizing LNG is less offensive then subsidizing ethanol. A subsidy is a subsidy.

I don't know it all, and I enjoy your comments on many topics, this one included Fordy.

Ethanol for fuel was kinda started in my back yard. One of the first small group of ethanol plants planned & built was about 15 miles north of me back in the 1980's.

Corn was between $1.70 and $2.30 here in my part of MN. They guessed the ethanol plant would bring the local cost of corn up a dime to 15 cents a bushel. Here where I live, most of the corn was hauled by semi to the dock on the Mississippi, and barged down to New Orleans, where it was then loaded onto ships and hauled over to Japan or China. River freezes up in November, and doesn't open up again until April this far north, so basically our corn has to sit around from October/ November until the river opens up. No one willing to pay anything for allt hat excess corn.

So a couple 100 farmers got together, and payed $10,000 to 50,000 a piece, and bought into a coop to put up the ethanol plant. It took a lot of work on their part, and they worked with local, regional, and fedral politicians to make it happen. You can't just go it alone. No one does - wind energy has over 1/3 the cost of every windmill you see paid by the govt!!!!! Oil and natural gas has many subsidies and govt benifits too. Heck, in this dead housing market, my little town of 15,000 has put up 7 houses in the past 3 years in an ecconomic development area, they will forgive utility easement costs for people moving into these ggovt assisted houses.... The govt simpley is everythingf & always to everyone. I don't like it either, but that is how any business is done. Lousy, but how it is.

Anyhow, here in my back yard, where there are perhaps 10-12 ethanol plants within 65 miles of me, corn is dirt cheap. We raise more than we use locally. I see a whole lot of farmers invest their own money into the plants. And yea they got politicians involved - mostly kicking & screaming, in the beginning, from what I remember.

I just don't see the politicians really being all that much in the forfront. It was farmers that drove this industry. We were going broke, no one wanted our good grain in a timely fashion. Cost more to grow it than it brought at market.

Farm subsidies have dropped off a lot now that we have a use for our corn. That 10-15 cents a bu is all it took, to get us growing again, get us ecconomically healthy again.


Ethanol you can mix with gasoline and burn it in vechicles already on the road. _That_ works.

LNG or CNG just won't work. I don't think you see the magnitude of the cost of converting our current liquid peetrolium fuels over to something so totally different. CNG doesn't have enouygh btu's to be practical for anything but short runs. And LNG takes containters strong enough to take 3000# of pressure - that's dangerous to the extreme, as well as heavy & complicated. Delivering those products across the country is a totally different thing - do we have tankerloads of LNG traveling up & down the roads? Or do we install 100s more pipelines across the country taking people's proerty for these lines and having the govt subsidise all those lines to feed ng to every gas staion to have it's own compressor to make LNG?

It's just a _monster_ of a difficult thing to get started. All the while, gasoline and ethanol is going to be cheaper to use, because it takes so much to get all those pipelines and fuel stations set up - that's a _huge_ $$$$$ bill. Much, much, much more than what ethanol took to get started.

And, where does ng come from? For me it's a far ways away, mostly comes from a foregn country 'here'. Great, we get to depend upon another off-shore supplier.... Sigh.

Someday, we might all be driving LNG vehicles. But that seems a very far away thing. It is a chicken & egg deal - takes piles of money to set up the fuel stations, takes piles of money to build the vehicles. it's a totally different fuel system - how does it react to cold, or damp, or hot situations?

We have enough problems with people disliking a 10 or 15% ethanol blend, which is a _tiny_ change in our fuel - it works in our regular engines, and can be hauled & stored in our tanks. But people fly off the handle at _this_ little change that works in the old vechicles they have right now.

How are people going to react to something totally new and toally different???? CNG and LNG will be wlecomed as much as the $2 bill.

Oh my, the knashing of teeth!

--->Paul

.................Efuel is made from Corn , grown in this country as a Major source of food for people as well as cattle ! Why should every vehicle mfged in this country have too be certified as compatable too operate with Efuel , when Efuel will never be a Major supplier of fuel for both gas and diesel engines . Efuel is NOT acceptable as a diesel fuel substitute , LNG is FULLY acceptable in Diesel engines with little modification . We , have a tremendous supply of LNG , HERE, In the USA ! And , yet , our IDIOT government is subsiding Efuel , because a Few Senators and Congressman "think" it's a good choice , How absolutely stupid is that ? Diesel fuel and LNG are the ONLY logical choices for supplying fuel for our trucks and cars . Europe has diesel powered vehicles in all sizes because of the efficiency and longivity that those engines provide too their owners , we as Americans have almost , none .
..................The foolish idiots in Congress are pumping Chinese deficit dollars into a fuel that should be going into LNG infrastructure because it's Here , and we don't have too invade any other country too try and protect a foreign supply . The Feds totally screwed up by choosing Efuel over LNG , for the above stated reasons . , fordy

You've been getting a minimum of e10 for 15 years now, the pumps at my station say the gas contains up to 15% alcohol and has since it opened 5 years ago.

.....................Too either manufacture or convert a vehicle over too CNG\LNG is not cheap although I implied or stated such , but I was wrong ! LNG requires special holding tanks but LNG provides a much higher volume of fuel than a tank of CNG therefore allowing the vehicle too cover much longer milages before needing a fillup . My point was , and still , IS , with Fed help the process of establishing infrastructure for filling stations will be accomplished much sooner . This , then , logically allows mfgers too justify mass producing vehicles capable of using LNG as a fuel and knowing that there will be a market for those vehicles .
...................UPS just purchased 48 transports specificially designed too run on LNG on an west-east route from Sacramento(sp) over the Sierra's too Salt lake , and then back . Califorina provided 4 mill for the LNG option and 1.5 mill towards the filling station . These kinds of projects are just the beginning of a major push by both state and federal governments too establish LNG\CNG as a fuel for daily consumption too replace gasoline , first for trucks , then for smaller vehicles .
..................As LNG replaces or Displaces gasoline , the Efuel market will be reduced as well making IT an UNprofitable investment . , fordy