When did man produce all his own food?

Do you really think that we live in a better world now?

All those "advancements" has allowed a very few individuals to economically and politically control the entire human population. They control the wealth, they control what you may and may not do. They have in their hands the ability to control all human life on earth, and to end all human life on earth.

This is progress?

__________________
Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

Cite please.

__________________
Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

Don't ask me! Ask PBS, their the ones who ran the special. They also ran a special on the Eskimo Indians. In 1948 the very last of the Free Eskimos were rounded up and put up in villages to live European style. There is still some Eskimos alive today that remembers being free to live whereever. One stated we weren't poor people till we had to give up our ways and live in these little villages and "make a living with money".

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r.h. in oklahoma

Raised a country boy, and will die a country boy.

Better in many ways - but not every way. In spite of "being controlled" - many of us have pretty darn good lives. I am not out all day grubbing for my food. I have access to good nutrition and I don't have 1/2 of my children dying before their first birthday. I have a warm house, I have an education, the ability to develop talents and pursue interests. I have access to knowledge and information. I can travel and see new things and learn about other people. I have my family - though each of our six kids live in a different state - we can still keep in touch daily if we desire it. We can 'see' our grandkids daily with webcam. I have lived past the age of 45. I really don't have much to complain about.

Morally, our country does have some issues. But I am not going to let that stop me from enjoying my life and seeing all the good that I have access to.

It's all in our perspective, isn't it? Tonight, Dh and I went to a dinner from work. We rarely participate since our lifestyle is quite different. But, DH was getting an award...so, we put on our Sunday-go-to-meeting clothes and sat there and listened to others at our table talk about their last wine-tasting vacation; different resorts they visited in common and compared notes....you get the idea. They enjoy their life - I enjoy mine. I am sure each of us would question the other's choice of the good life.

You are very fortunate. sounds like a great group! I want to spend more time creating a community locally. I am not sure how to start. What did you do?

Division of labor leads to a better life for everyone. If you have one man who makes wagon wheels, another who goes to school to become a doctor, another with a grain mill or a woolen mill, then everyone in the community gets wheels for their buckboard, medical care, flour, and clothing.

For one family to provide all their own blacksmithing, flour, fabric, medical care, etc, there aren't enough hours in the day.

If you talk about cultures so primitive that they were self-sufficient, remember that many of them starved to death and most died very young.

I produce a lot of my own food, but I like plastic cups to start seeds in, grow lights, chocolate, a nice big freezer, and the internet. Yeah, I can do without, but I am not doing without until TEOTWAWKI

I was reading txsteader's thread in the survival forum about the collapse of Russia....the thread is here Survival In Times of Uncertainty: 1990s Russia

And came across this that runs right with the topic of this thread

"As I was thinking about this topic, I was struck by the following realization, counterintuitive but supported by evidence. The limiting factor in the survival, on both the level of the individual and the community, was not the ability to produce your own products and not even the available resources or lack of them. It was transport and infrastructure - the ability to trade, deliver your surplus elsewhere and from there get other things you need.

This is why rural areas and small towns in Russia took a very hard hit in the 90s, and may never fully recover, as some say. One would think it should be exactly the opposite - people would have gone into the remote villages and live off the land and the woods. However, even in the most self-sufficient household one cannot produce or make everything needed. And being in a remote location makes it difficult to deliver surplus to others in a timely manner for trading or exchange, especially with the roads being as atrocious as they were (a problem endemic to Russia, but can be an important factor elsewhere as well)."

Kind of what I was thinking...the problem with trading is that others have to have something you need. I don't see that in the people around me.

This really comes down to definitions and parameters. I provide for 100% of my needs from my homestead. My husband and I work here to generate our own food and food for others which we sell to pay things like taxes and for gasoline and for things we like but can't make here like coffee and olive oil. Is that self sufficient? I say it is because I supply all my needs and wants from my farm. Others would quibble I am sure because they have different parameters.

We could actually live 100% off the food we grow on our farm if we were willing to give up our wants. I don't think we could provide all of our clothes and such though.

As far as community goes we have a good one here and we do barter everything from food to work to machinery to services. Most of us who are farming full time have skills the others don't that we can swap. One of us has a tractor and swaps all sorts of stuff to till and do other work for the rest. That allows the rest of us to invest in something else that we can then share. I think that is the way we live the best, in a community of like minded people who can help us out when we need it and that we can help out when they need it. We would have never gotten back on our feet so quickly after we lost everything in our house fire if we hadn't had our community. To be honest I don't think we would have had the will to stay here and start over if we hadn't had our community and been so attached to all of them.

Can you leave political systems out of it, for once please?

__________________
Recognize the beauty in things, in creation, even when thats difficult to do.
Be loving, show compassion. Create while we're here.
Enjoy this life, be in this life but not be of it.

So there are a few who have done better than the masses in general, yet the masses live much longer lives, have much easier lives, are healthier and enjoy far more freedom than their primitive ancestors. To me this looks like progress for everyone. Those few at the top whom you believe control the population are not about to disrupt the lower classes lifestyles,,,,, they would surely die themselves without the support provided by the masses.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/latinamerica.html
pick a country

Not when it is a key aspect of the topic. Read your history.

__________________
Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

I could say the same thing of my livestock.

__________________
Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

Nothing there to indicate that any of those aforementioned groups recieved aid.

__________________
Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent

on a low carb diet I don't have any need for the flour and sugar products that you mentioned, I use very few grains and can certainly grow everything I need IF I choose to, however, I instead buy my meat and eggs from local farmers and grow my fruits and vegetables..and process them for the winter.

I do however still buy some spices that aren't growable in our area also, like black pepper, cinnamon, salt, etc. and I probably always will. But I don't see any problem with that..should it come to a time where I can no longer get these caue of the SHTF situation or whatever, I'm certain I can get along with out any of them..

Being self reliant does not necessarily mean you can't trade, barter, or other ways obtain things that you want that you don't produce on your own property..allowing your neighbors to raise things that you don't, and then trading, bartering or buying when you can from them only helps them to be more self reliant.

even the Indians had means of trade with other indian tribes and white folks..when the explorers came over they found that the indians in North and South American used a form of monetary trade back then..and if you go back to Biblical times, they would trade, barter or buy between tribes..even before the roman coins were available to them

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Brenda Groth
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

I know my history, thanks.

But whether people were socialists, capitalists, etc is not a key aspect of the topic.

__________________
Recognize the beauty in things, in creation, even when thats difficult to do.
Be loving, show compassion. Create while we're here.
Enjoy this life, be in this life but not be of it.

Again you are confusing NEED with WANT. You can produce all you NEED, but probably nobody can produce all their WANTS.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

YOUR idea of better. Gotta realize not everybody has same desires as you. Most people can pursue talents and interests without following a set agenda to be recognized as an officially sanctioned "expert". And without modern technology. Not everybody has or wants children. So enjoy the "good life" you apparently have achieved, but dont claim we all have to follow your footsteps or need your ideal world imposed on us in order to be happy. Not all people are ever happy no matter what. Sure there were cavemen that were happy, sure there were plenty of ancestors that lived in very different circumstances without all the modern conveniences and travel and whatever that were perfectly happy with their life.

And some of us would much prefer very remote existance with its limitations and enjoy it without trade for luxury goods. You can have a warm house with very primative construction. You have warm dry shelter, you have good fresh water, and you have adequate supply food. What exactly do you need beyond that? I sure dont need somebody wanting to make me into an indentured economic slave that has to spend whatever I earn to buy approved commodities at the "company store" and pay the man "rent" or "tribute" for my living space.....

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

Maybe not (I think it is), but it was a key aspect of the post I was responding to, and besides it wasn't political, it was economic.

__________________
Flaming Xtian
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi


Libertarindependent