Does it really matter how I hold the Gun?

Well, after that last post (from the OP), I give up. Fundlementals of marksmanship right out the window. Someone has been watching WAAAYYY too much 3 gun nation.

I must compliment the OP for realizing the need to practice and asking for input on how to improve. You are miles ahead of many gun owners by just doing those two things.

A common mistake that some rookie firearm instructors make is to try and force a new student into the 'proper stance', and/or, the 'proper grip' right from the get-go. While these things are important, there is a lot of information for the new shooter to process as they are learning, and assuming their stance/grip is not unsafe there are other items to focus on first. I demonstrate the proper grip and stance right off the bat but I do not focus on them until later in the learning process, and even then I don't tend to harp on them if the person is keeping their rounds on target in a consistent manner.

- Adherence to the the three (or four if you prefer) rules of gun safety

- Trigger press

- Sight picture / Front sight alignment

These three things are the items of primary focus to start. After that we revisit stance and grip. I find that the female shooters usually end up in some sort of modified weaver (sometimes referred to as the Chapman stance), and the males end up in isosceles. I don't have any idea why that is, just an observation over the years.

http://www.corneredcat.com/basics/stance.aspx

Isosceles


Weaver


Chapman

Images from:
http://www.io.com/~cortese/firearms/index.html


I would suggest, as silverback alluded to, that it's best to leave the movement drills for a little later stage in the learning process. While I think it's great that you are thinking through possible scenarios and practicing some movement exercises, I really think you need to obtain some consistency in a static situation before moving on.

If you are not consistent in static shooting situations you sure will not be in a dynamic situation. The great danger here is this type of thing can lead to much frustration for the shooter because there are too many variables and they can't identify how to improve. This in turn can lead to less or no practice, which leads to little or no skill growth.

Once you get some consistency on the square range with sighted shooting, then you can start looking at some dynamic movement scenarios, and start trying out things like point shooting and other methods that you might find helpful.

Move your target in closer than 18' until you have consistency at the closer distance.

The wrist pain deal is an issue that needs to be addressed. It is not something you can just live with if at all possible. If it's painful to shoot you will eventually not shoot as much and your practice frequency will fall way off or go to none, which will lead to loss of skills and proficiency.

Are you shooting full house .357 magnums in that snub nose? Full house magnums in a snub nose is no easy row to hoe for many folks. Much is made of caliber discussions, but in the end a bad guy is not likely to notice much difference if you shoot him with a .38+p or even just a .38 at close contact distances. Start with an easy recoiling load until you get the consistency down and your wrists don't hurt.

This is my favorite wrist exercise for folks who want to build up some stamina in their wrists. You don't have to use a barbell, you can use a piece of pipe, even a broom, or other like item. You don't want a lot of weight either, in fact that is many peoples biggest mistake with this particular exercise, putting too much weight on the bar and making the wrist situation worse. It's important that your forearms stay down on the surface as you want to isolate the wrists and keep your elbows from bending. Also make sure to unroll you fingers on the down stroke.

Thank you Wayne02! Lots of good advice there.

I have been shooting with what my son calls "cheap regular 38's" since they are "cheap" and we can shoot more.

But, I also have shot (again what my boys call them) a 357 Bullet they call a CCI Blazer Jacket Hollow point........or something like that.......

And then they have some bullets they claim are "expensive" called a 357 Winchester Jacket Hollow point......

I have shot all three of these. The 357 bullets hurt my wrist but I can shoot them without jerking the gun around too much. They have another type of bullet that only one of the boys uses but he says it is even more expensive.......called a Personal Defense.....something.....

Sorry I am not sure of the names of the bullets. They keep them in separate boxes and they are used for different purposes. Mainly I shoot the target with the 38 but the other day I did use the medium price 357 bullets.

My stance is more like the first photo but I have been grabbing my right arm with the left wrist and I kept doing it even after they had me practice the other way. When I went to shoot at the target, we always have everyone else behind the "table" which means behind the table with the other guns and behind the shooter. Also, we all use ear-muff devices.......so once I get ready to shoot, no one speaks to me. I seem to revert back to the grab the arm stance and forget to keep the left hand where it "belongs".

My older son took a look at your wrist exercise and said he has a bar with a rope and pulley thing on it that I can use. Thank you for the tip.

Thanks very much. I think I need to practice more and just keep practicing!

SilverbackMP: I do not know what you mean? What did I say that was wrong? I do not know what a "3 gun nation" means.

Thank you everyone.

I am curious what scenarios everyone is preparing for. Seems like range type shooting is fine, but if the situation is a guy busting in the bedroom door in the middle of the night, how does that work?

Can one find their gun? Do you ask the intruder to wait while you get in the proper position to shoot?

Shouldn't take too much target practice to hit a guy in the same room. Seems a bigger problem to get ready in a hurry to shoot without panicking.

If you PRACTICE enough with the proper position, it becomes so natural that you automatically grip the gun that way when you want to shoot.

In an emergency, you could still shoot one handed, but in most cases you'll have the extra second it takes to get both hands on the gun

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I am not "getting ready" for anything really. It is just that we have guns, and in my opinion if we own guns then everyone in the house needs to know how to use them properly and know how to clean, store, and use all safe handling practices. The boys and my husband have practiced more than I have and I need to catch up on learning.

I was one of "those people" who said I would never touch a gun and my kids would never touch a gun! My how things can change! We moved to the country, the boys wanted to learn to target shoot and.....there we have it.

Since the boys are all very good shots, I recently started to try and improve and I am not doing so good! Thus - my original post question: Does it really matter how I hold the gun.......and the answer seems to be "yes" - but not a firm yes. Seems to me that I need to just practice more and also strengthen my wrists and just learn more and ......practice more.

The 18 feet from the Target idea came from brain-storming and in thinking about "when would we ever have to shoot a person" - which is a terrible thing to think about but........we thought about our house and yard and what would be the Plan in an emergency and we came up with the 18 feet.

Thank you everyone for the good ideas and tips.

Meanwhile, I shoot like a girl, too.

I can put a full box of 50 rounds inside a 4 inch grouping at 25 feet. So you really have room to improve your shooting and being a woman is not any excuse at all.

Other than that, I don't think it matters how you hold the gun if you can hit the target the way you are holding it. Your problem, is that you are not hitting the target so something needs to be changed.

I suggest training with .38 wadcutters. They are much less expensive and have less kick. If you ever get into an adrenaline situation, the additional kick from a .357 won't even be noticeable, so you do not need to train with .357 ammo.

If you are training for home defense, get a shotgun. The sound of racking a round into the chamber will stop almost anyone, and if it doesn't, you don't have to aim to hit them, just point the gun in their general direction.

By the way, I recommend that you use a revolver. It will never jam on you so you have one less thing to worry about. It won't ever bite you like an automatic can. Practice with speed loaders and you can get so you can reload nearly as fast as the guys with the auto clips. You want to practice enough so you can load and fire with only muscle memory and you don't have to think Because in a stress situation, you might not have time to think.

Thank you Oregon Woodsmok -
We do have a speed loader and the boys know how to use it but I have not practiced with it yet. I also do have an Over-Under Shot Gun. I have an older revolver but mainly I am trying to improve with the 357 Magnum though. Thank you!

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Jolly - nice reference page. Thanks for the link.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the "proper technique" of shooting your self-defense handgun. Let's face it - in a real life defense situation - you're more likely going to be shooting from behind your bed or couch, around a corner, on your back, etc. The correct use of the isoceles or weaver position, gripping with two hands or one hand, etc. doesn't mean a thing when the perp is standing at your bedroom door and you're in bed, or he is attempting to force your car door open and you're in the driver's seat, or he's 20 feet from you and running full speed toward you with a tire iron in his hand.

IMHO, proper technique - standing still and steady - in the correct position - is nice for accurately punching holes in paper. But to prepare yourself for real life situations, I'd suggest learning to shoot one-handed - with both right and left hands - from standing, sitting and on your back positions. Learn to aim and shoot quickly by just putting the front sight on the target....don't waste precious time by trying line up the front and reat sight. Learn to shoot facing the target, as well as, moving sideways and away from the target. "Move! Get off the X! Don't make yourself a stationary target!" Also, learn to reload on the move.

With all that said, a beginner should always start by mastering proper technique. But, just realize you'll probably never use "textbook technique" it in a real life close up, face-to-face, stressful self-defense situation.

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Have fun with your family there. Sounds like you are. Practicing is another word for playing with your family. Enjoy it. Don't be in too big a hurry to get better. Once you are really a better shot, you may not feel the need to "practice".

If you want to learn to do anything well, doesn't it make sense to learn the basics first? The fancy aerobatic pilot had to learn to take off and land the same as every other pilot. The performing dog at the circus started out learning to sit, stay and come. The best guitarist in the world probably started by playing G-C-D chords over and over. You need have a solid foundation to build upon, and the better the foundation, the higher you can build later.

Thank you again everyone -
I am sick with sinus infection plus the boys all have school work so we will not be target shooting this weekend. We have a long break next week and will have time then. Thank you all for the discussion and links. I have learned a lot and appreciate all the input and points.

I too think it will be a good idea to learn to shoot one handed and "on the run" so to speak but for me, I like starting with the basics and so Ed Norman's point is well made that since I am a "beginner" then learning good solid basics will be a good thing in the long term. I can build further once I have a good solid foundation - especially with safety.

Thanks everyone! Happy shooting!

I find it difficult to shoot my 44mag left handed while driving the one ton on a bumpy road...

Any stance that'll work for you is good... I'd worry about my technique if I only hit the target 60% of the time. Now if you were aiming at a target, and were missing the bullseye by an inch, well that's understandable... missing the target altogether??? If you find a good stance, and can consistently hit the bullseye, at some point, you'll be able to 'call your shots'... I pulled that one to the left, or that one's low, etc.

Shooting targets is great... I like paper targets for sighting in rifles... tin cans for pistol practice. If you ever think you might be shooting at something that might shoot back, practice 'that' technique. I sometimes raise the window on the upstairs bedroom, stick my hand out the window, and shoot the pistol "blindly" at a target, trying to 'aim by feel'... amazing how close you can get.

I've done a lot of shooting in my life, and can't recall ever being in a Weaver stance, when I was shooting at an animal. If ever I were to get low on bullets, and zombies were shuffling towards me, yeah, we'd whoop out the Weaver, and make each shot count.

Might also consider getting some 'blanks' and practice reloading in stressful situations.... run, exercise, whatever, to get your heart pumping... shoot and then reload... or try reloading the blanks in pitch black.... basic gun safety rules always apply.

I instinctually hold a gun two handed, until I know it's recoil. Afterwards, its going to be one handed (unless it's a .445 supermag or .454 casull, or a larger cartridge..)

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Shoot minimum of 500rds with a proper technique, site picture, breathing, stance, and trigger control (1000rd would be better) before you put anything else into the mix.

The 3 gun nation comment I refered to earlier was refering to the the running and log jumping stuff.

Get the fundamentals down before you add any kind of stress fire or reflex fire or any other "stuff" into the mix. If you shoot enough and work on the simple fundamentals, they will work into your stress fire scenrio when you get to that point via muscle memory. I.E. you will not have to think about them.

The 38 wadcutter suggestion posted by someone else will work in your 357(may foul the barrell a bit) and will allow you to focus on fundamentals. Also shoot with 357 on occasion as muzzle rise and 2nd shot target acquistion is different.

And yes, I have been shot at (multiple times), kicked in doors, and have led others doing the same.

Meanwhile,

On reverting back:

You are probably focusing more on 2 things. Just shooting and trying to hit the target. As others have recommended, drop the movement until you can consistently group center of mass on a siluete target. You need to focus on learning proper technique. I would suggest before the next visit to the range, train yourself to talk yourself through this list:
1) Proper stance (whichever you choose to work on)
2) Proper hand position
3) Site picture
4) Both eyes Open
5) Relax
6) Breath --Inhale---Exhale 1/2---Hold
7) Squeeze gently

I would recommend going through this complete sequence for each shot until you are consistently grouping all shots in center on a siluete target. This may take several trips to the range. And it will feel very odd to you in the beginning. Eventually, you will find that the sequence becomes natural to you. Then you can start adding a second shot each time. This is the way you train yourself. These are the basic principles for shooting. It doesn't matter so much for self defense which stance you choose or if your stance is perfect, as long as it is consistent.

There are a couple of other exercises that you can do which will help with your wrists.

1) Take a tennis or rubber ball that will fit in your hand and squeeze it, one hand at the time. Do lots of repetitions several times a day.

2) Take a stick about 12 to 18 inches long and fasten a cord to it securely in the center. Drilling a hole for the cord is the best. Then tie a weight on the end so that the string allows you to hold the stick parallel to the floor in front of your solar plexus. Grip the stick with one hand on either side of the cord and the palms on top of the stick. Now wind the weight up to the cord and back down. The weight can be a gallon jug with enough water to give enough resistance to make your forearms tired after 4 or 5 repetitions. Then work to more repetitions and add more weight until you can easily do 10 - 20 reps with a gallon of water.

This will take time, but it does work. Good luck.

KMA1

Lol, for some reason the image of you milking with one hand while shooting with the other came to mind....

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Texican -
I like the idea about re-loading with blanks! Good idea. We have a little re-loader device and the boys use it but I need to learn to use it. My boys will love your idea of shooting out the window -- but I don't think we can do that safely. We need to stick to our Target range for the most part.

SilverbackMP -
I agree - good point. My son had me do the "running" part to get the heart rate up, stress, then shoot but I think you are right, I need to just practice and get better holding the gun and shooting at the Target before I add a bunch of the "stress" things.

KMA1 -
Thank you for the list. My son has been going over most of those with me and asking me to "dry shoot", I think that is what he calls it, no bullets, and just think about what I am doing, before we even load the guns. My older son made a device like you describe with the rope. He has a weight hooked to the end and he showed me how to roll up the rope while holding the PVC pipe and it pulls the weight up. Good ideas. Thank you.

The image of someone milking a goat and shooting with the other hand is funny.....but I wonder what the poor Goat would do?

Thanks everyone. I am stuck "in town" and working until Thursday but we plan to get out this weekend and practice. I have my rubber ball and the rope-weight device and am working on wrist and arm strength every day. Taking Advil at night........

Thanks!

Load up some "dummy " rounds with a bullet but no powder or primer, then lightly spray paint them red.
They will load easier and be more realistic

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