Alright alright, I'll start small

chancehayden · #41 03/17/11, 08:55 PM

Excellent advice! I was typing my last response while you posted this I guess. I definitely agree about phasing things in and I definitely agree building the land up and installing the plants should be first. You're also spot on about me loving to START projects and researching, well, if one could be a research machine, I would be it. It's just that the old proverbial hands are tied because I'm sill in college. I'm learning a lot from our new farm manager though, he's putting in permaculture systems and designs left and right and I'm right there nodding my head and helping out. Also, I'm renting out a house of a landscaper/builder/mechanic/jack-of-all trades and helping him "sustainable-ize" his property this summer through next semester so hopefully I'll have big arsenal of skills, friends, contacts, and knowledge by the time I graduate.
Thanks for the advice and support!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morakai

My ideas of planning to live small... Now I am a family of 1, with a cityfied mother stopping once in awhile. No outside chores, but she might help with sewing (which is not my best area). I am thinking of a less than 1000 sq ft house. Now mind, most of that is the kitchen and the "addition" of the herbal "surgery". that is a place that I will dry, store, & process herbal medicines, make candles, and begin the canning process, aka extra counter space. It is all on one floor: kitchen, living area, bathroom & bedroom. I do want a loft bedroom & craft area as well for myself. Save the downstairs one for guests.

Outside.... 2 gardens (1 for herbs, other for veggies), about a dozen, maybe 2, of mixed chickens (egg & meat), and some milking goats. Thinking about a half dozen would be great for me & still have enough left over for soaps, cheese, and baking. Also thinking I might have a horse if it is trained to pull a cart, if I live in an area that we won't get run over.

That is about it for right now, and though it is "small", it is all that I would be able to handle. Not to mention in the beginning trying to build the house (if there isn't one available), out buildings, plan the garden areas, set everything up with the persnickety details that will run ya ragged, and STILL try to make a living so you and your livestock can eat something each day.

My suggestion is to take things in steps. It is great to have an end plan, and you can build towards that end, but start slow. Find the land. Build your house. Plan & Prepare your gardens for at least 2 years before doing anything else, except maybe plant a few trees & berry bushes. Once all ThAT is under nominal control <snorts>, then can start planning on adding a species of livestock to the mix. Me it would be chickens for meat & eggs. Once you have them integrated in, THEN start planning on adding in another species. Remember to start slow without too many at once till you have a handle on things.

By doing things slow, you can shorten the consequences of the learning curve, if something goes wrong. Also, you don't waste money, time, energy, and patience.

You seem the type to thrive on a "new" project. Take each step as a project, research it till ya fall over, then do it! Then at the beginning of each winter, find the next project you can research through the snow & ice to work on the next spring/summer/fall while still taking care of what you already have.

So take this plan of yours & put it down to the little steps. Then go from there. I know that you will do this. I know that I will do it as well, if not on so grand a vision. However, if you are going to do it correctly, start slowly & build on what you already have TOWARDS the grand plan.

Just some thoughts for ya....

Txrider · #42 03/17/11, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancehayden

Excellent advice! I was typing my last response while you posted this I guess. I definitely agree about phasing things in and I definitely agree building the land up and installing the plants should be first. You're also spot on about me loving to START projects and researching, well, if one could be a research machine, I would be it. It's just that the old proverbial hands are tied because I'm sill in college. I'm learning a lot from our new farm manager though, he's putting in permaculture systems and designs left and right and I'm right there nodding my head and helping out. Also, I'm renting out a house of a landscaper/builder/mechanic/jack-of-all trades and helping him "sustainable-ize" his property this summer through next semester so hopefully I'll have big arsenal of skills, friends, contacts, and knowledge by the time I graduate.
Thanks for the advice and support!

That's a good start for experience..

Starting small your mistakes will also be smaller with less loss and easier to recover from and easier overcome with sheer effort. Get something going and work the kinks out and then expand and duplicate a working system you have perfected on a small scale to an ever larger scale. That seems to be the story behind most successful people I know.

You're getting ahead of the game getting the experience you talk about, most start without even that.

I also depends on your goals and why you are doing it. For me it's simply to set up a workable sustainable small scale operation with the goal of minimal inputs and maximized output, keeping things as simple as possible to build an economically very cheap and sustainable living for myself. But I have an advantage in that I'll have enough money to live on and feed myself while working to get things going full time for a few years, most don't have that luxury and have to have a regular job to feed themselves while working part time to get set their place set up.

For me buying livestock is not year 2, but more like year 4 or 5. But I'm on my own with no help.

I would love to have a very experienced permaculture expert helping me out.

Morakai · #43 03/17/11, 09:05 PM

Now this does seem doable if you have several teams of people helping you out. The house itself will take at least 6 mos to complete, then add on everything else that you are planning? Now for said house you have to plan on if to have a cistern, root cellar, Battery banks set up inside, and a score of things just in teh house. Then you also want to tackle building so many outbuildings at the same time? Without several teams of people & a huge out lay of cash I do not seeing much of this getting done before the winter makes construction very hard to do.

Have nothing against your "dream", just thinking of the time line needs to be a bit more realistic. The first year itself is very very labor intensive even with powered machinery to help out. Even I, with little practical experience, can see this. Go for your dream, just don't hurt yourself in keeping your time line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancehayden

Thanks for the blatant honesty, it is truly appreciated, even from those who plain say I could never accomplish half of what I "dream." When I describe this, I'm thinking somewhere 3-5 years down the road. That's what I consider "starting." Fifteen years from now, yes I'd love to have 100 goats, 15 cows, 300 hens, acres of food forests and polycultured food fields. Here's what I'm thinking in terms of a timeline, and this is very general and not specific.
Year 1: Buy/rent equipment. Most of the work after Years 1 and 2 will be done with human-powered tools so we may just rent a tractor when we need one. Burm, swale, and grade some of the land. Dig ponds if we need to. Work on clearing some of the land and plant grasses, legumes, and forages for the goats and cows. Build the chicken tracts and chicken houses (this is a brand new idea/system that I'm anxious to try out, it involves building chicken houses on wheels and setting the whole thing on parallel poles to be pushed around the pasture/annual veggie beds). Work on building living quarters for employees/students/WWOOFers/lessees (probably a multi-bedroom, communal residence until we are able to build other residences; would use timber from the land and bamboo preferably and install solar panels). Work on barn and storage spaces for animals. Plant permaculture guilds (including fruit trees, nut trees, forage trees and shrubs, fruit shrubs, perennials, annual veggies). Maybe build a couple hoop-houses. Set up bee hives.
Year 2: Buy ~15 goats, ~50 hens, maybe a couple dairy cows, a handful of pigs and some other animals that we may be ready for (rabbits, ducks, etc). Plant more trees, guilds, veggies, etc. Sell veggies, fruit, honey, maybe a couple pigs, eggs, maybe milk, seedlings (ebay!), and some other value-added products.
Year 3: Buy ~15 more goats, ~50 more hens, maybe a couple dairy cows, and a few more pigs. By this point, most of the pastures, perennial guilds, forages, fruit guilds, etc should be established and maintenance will take a day or two each month. Set up a "you-pick" program with blueberries, blackberries, figs, peaches, persimmons, kiwi fruit, grapes, goji berries, sea buckthorn, plums, apricots, apples, pears, cranberries, cherries, cut flowers, herbs, and heck, maybe even a whole you-pick program for all our fruits and veggies. There will be harvests for CSA members and for farm markets though, it will just be more expensive than you-pick. Charge for tours, maybe hold permaculture classes, hold internship/work exchange/similar programs. Sell goat and cow milk, maybe cheese, butter, cream, and yoghurt. Sell eggs. Raw milk/cheese/butter and free-range eggs are hot commodities where I live and I would imagine almost everywhere. Work on other residences, upgrades, and projects on the property.
Year 4: Buy more animals if we'd like to. Maintain property. Install more value-adding designs and systems.
Year 5: Mostly making profits, giving to the community, revelling in success and living in abundance.

Some of these activities may go elsewhere on the timeline and more or less activities may be included. Feel free to mention some things I've forgotten to include; all this is off the top of my head without looking at any of my notes or pulling up any bookmarked pages.
And yes, I have found a way to manipulate time and it's wonderful.
What else? Hit me with it.

farmgal · #44 03/17/11, 09:39 PM

You seem very ambitious. Why not use your own money to fund this dream? Why do you need your parents money? Things worth having take time, effort and sacrifice. When someone hands you money, the dream doesnt hold the same value.

Heritagefarm · #45 03/17/11, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancehayden

Year 1: Buy/rent equipment. Most of the work after Years 1 and 2 will be done with human-powered tools so we may just rent a tractor when we need one. Burm, swale, and grade some of the land. Dig ponds if we need to. Work on clearing some of the land and plant grasses, legumes, and forages for the goats and cows. Build the chicken tracts and chicken houses (this is a brand new idea/system that I'm anxious to try out, it involves building chicken houses on wheels and setting the whole thing on parallel poles to be pushed around the pasture/annual veggie beds). Work on building living quarters for employees/students/WWOOFers/lessees (probably a multi-bedroom, communal residence until we are able to build other residences; would use timber from the land and bamboo preferably and install solar panels). Work on barn and storage spaces for animals. Plant permaculture guilds (including fruit trees, nut trees, forage trees and shrubs, fruit shrubs, perennials, annual veggies). Maybe build a couple hoop-houses. Set up bee hives.

How many mortgages are you planning on taking? I've been encouraging you so far, yes go on with it, grand, but I read this and... This would take a lot of money. And more time than you really get in a year. And do you know how much solar panels cost? And a building for students? Um, until you've been known for a while, no one's going to you in the hordes asking to see how you've done it.
I strongly recommend talking to a person who's done something similar to what you want to do. (other than some stuck-up organics farmer who charges $800 so you can hear him talk about how special he is.) Also... Don't let the "You can't do that" comments get to you and make you do it anyways. It's not a "You can't do it", it's more of a "You can't own a Polyface farm in 4 years" kinda thing.

maverickxxx · #46 03/17/11, 11:42 PM

are these school projects desighning farms?i see you still really look at logistics of building all this stuff. clearing a treed lot is alot of work especially old growth i havent ever dug up one of those stumps i couldnt imagine ive dug some monsters out. always with excavtor or loader or dozer. i couldnt imagine cutting down hauling gaint logs limbing draging brush and pulling stumps by hand or even with just a tractor. shoveling around stump chopping roots shoveling then trying to pull it out with tractor. man you are looking at a day per tree maybe. im sure everyone has a story nightmare stump. then you still need to cut those logs in to lumber stack dry. i run 16 hrs a day basiclly 7 days a week and i dont get a fraction of what i want to get done. to many varibles the biggest weather. ill tell you the most important thing you will ever hear LISTEN TO THE OLD TIMERS! i was gradeforeman at 22 for multimillion dollar highway and bridge company and did much better than any of the other younger foreman not just in production but also in respect from crews and operators. i went up told them what i had for experince proved i new the numbers end but hadnt run the equipment much at that point and wanted to know what the best way was to go about doing what we were doing.so the guys that came up with the techniques for building highways through mtns over rivers etc thought me how to really do it. i had the blue books for the job telling me how to do it. just because its written dosnt mean its so. i learned about principals and theroys in school. i was thaught on the job by the people who really knew how to do it on the job.i use books and reserch to getting an understanding before i go and ask how to do it. then i find an old timer to help tell or show me how to do it. youll learn more about what you wanna do spending a week with an old timer working on his farm than a semester in school. dont take everything from books and teachers as gospil. seems like most people on here are tried and true. should listen to them

PyroDon · #47 03/17/11, 11:48 PM

dreams are great ,
if you really want to find out what kind of a community organizer you are join the peace corps . There are plenty of places in the world that could use a good organizer.
starting small means just that. small .
try 5 or ten acres a couple goats some chickens, rabbits , maybe a cow if you can do that without it costing you then enlarge .
Im not saying anything cant be done , personally I hate the word cant but as i age I have learned you are very unlikely to do it all alone .
equipment isnt cheap but doesnt have to cost 6 digits either .
while your planning this you better take an automotive repair class, hydraulics class,engineering class or five, some vet tech classes , and go for a biology phd
all of which might help but your going to earn a doctorate from hard knocks U if you jump in blinded by youthful exuberance.
A smart man learns from his mistakes a really Smart man learns from the mistakes of others.
To make something like you have proposed work you have to get people with expertise in each area. You also have to fully understand your own abilities and short falls .
Im the first to admit I sure wish Id done a lot of things back when i was 19 and knew everything , because it would have been a lot easier then when I was 25 and had reality punching

Joshie · #48 03/18/11, 12:38 AM

Although several of us have asked you've not answered. How in the world does a young man in his early 20s have the money to afford this property, livestock, and equipment, let alone trees and seed? How do you intend to get financing. Unless your family is independently wealthy I don't understand how it'll pay. Have you looked into local laws? Markets? You must look at the bad. You must plan for the bad. It'll come and it'll bite you in the backside if you don't have a plan.

JohnL751 · #49 03/18/11, 03:27 AM

I was thinking that start small was in tha same nabirhood as 8 or 10 chickens, 2 dairy goats, 4 sheep, 3 rabbits, possible a bee hive, a dozen fruit trees, a large garden and a mule just because I want one.

jen74145 · #50 03/18/11, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

People don't like to think someone might be able to do something better then them, so they put you down.

Funny enough, I don't see anyone putting him down. I think everyone wants him to succeed, and *not* fall flat on his face in the first two years, in debt up to his eyeballs, and a bunch of animals dead/dying of preventable disease/predation. *shrug*

Debt after school can wring you dry. I am also not a huge fan of borrowing money from parents, as I think it smacks of taking advantage of older people.

I would truthfully take a year just to be out on my own and figure out how to keep my own ship afloat before I started adding the major responsibilities of dairy animals/large amounts of poultry. Take that time to figure out all the laws and restrictions governing what you want to do; where can you sell milk, and what inspections must you pass? What areas have favorable agriculture tax laws? How many vets, and are they actually knowledgable about the species you intend to work with (cattle vet for goats... just go ask the goat forum how that one works out, and I'm sure vice versa).

Anyway, I'm done here. Wish you the best OP.

garyinmississip · #51 03/18/11, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancehayden

So after considering the feedback on my Permaculture farm in Costa Rica idea I agree that unless a great opportunity comes my way I'm going to have to start a small "small farm." I'm thinking ~30 dairy goats, a couple hundred free range hens, a handful of dairy cows, and of course nuts, fruit, veggies, herbs, bamboo, timber, and possibly electricity from a solar power plant on the farm.

If you call that small, there's a government job waiting for you somewhere.:happy0035:

lambs.are.cute · #52 03/18/11, 12:13 PM

Do you know if you like the animals? Have you ever been face to face with chickens, goats, and cattle? Have you ever tried to handle these animals. What about trying to milk? You WILL find that animals are much more work than you think. If you are sick, the animals still need fed, if it cold the animals still need fed, if it is raining and the wind is blowing it all down your coat the animals still need fed, if you want to take a vacation the animals still need fed. In theory (I know because I too dreamed of rasing livestock for years before I acutally got them) you will never get so sick that you are puking on the way to the barn to feed the animals, you never again will want to vacation, and every day feeding is a joy but remember this is a 365 days a year, at least 2 a day commitment. (btw this is lambing season for me. This involves 2 hr checks during the night if they are lambing. It is 9 in the morning for me and already I have been out to the barn 2 since dawn. I am out about every 2 hrs during the days nursing a sick ewe that might not make it. Have you ever had to deal with the enevitable death that comes with a livestock operation?) You can hope on others to help you but the reality is that sometimes they are just too busy and you have to deal with it. 30 goats and 100 chickens is NOT small for someone who has never had their own livestock. Try starting with two and see how that goes. If you like it GREAT, get some more and try that. This way you won't loose a bunch of money.

Betho · #53 03/18/11, 02:05 PM

Alright people... this post has turned into a long one so beware

There's sure a lot of assumptions being made in this thread. Biggest pet peeve of mine is when someone posts a question, and they get jumped all over because of posters assuming things about that person.

So how about this - instead of hammering him about how in the world he's going to come up with the money for this endeavor, a simple "It would be very unwise to go into massive amounts of debt with this project."

I've done feasibility studies for potential projects in the past, and almost each time, at least one expert or farmer doing that same project (for instance, operating a cheesemaking facility) has pretty much spent most of their time telling me how unprepared I was because it is SOOOOO expensive to get started, and just how hard it would be for me to have to milk every day. Well of course it's expensive! Realistically speaking, the odds me me asking because I just woke up one day and decided to start a cheesemaking operation without doing any research are a LOT less than me asking because I've made cheese, enjoyed the results, looked into the ins and outs of it, and am trying to do genuine research to see if it's feasible.

Of course I have to milk every day! That doesn't mean no one can do it, though. They knew NOTHING of my financial circumstance and the fact that I may or may not have the finances to do it at hand, they just made an assumption that I was ready to go NOW without even paying attention to what I was really saying. I always appreciated any advice, but stuff like that frustrated me so much that I don't usually go to individual farmers for advice or input on potential projects anymore, which is sad because they are usually the ones with the best knowledge!

Reminds me of a large soapmaking forum I belong to - if anyone who hasn't been a member for at least 6 months makes the mistake of posting that they have made soap and they loved it and want to go into the soap business, they get absolutely raked over the coals for it. It is always automatically assumed that the person is just going to go into business immediately without testing their formula, getting insurance, having enough experience, etc. Never do they consider that the person might just be asking "Hey how do I go about this?" where the more appropriate response would be advising them to test out various formulae, where to get the appropriate insurance, directing toward small business training and resources, etc. Drives me up the wall sometimes. Some of these people have been making soap for years but just register to find out more information about taking it to the next step and they get jumped all over because of assumptions.

That's why Chance is asking for advice here... not so everyone can "project" what they assume is the case, but so we as a collective group of "been there, done that-ers" can tell him what pitfalls to avoid. Let's not make assumptions about him, his knowledge, experience, and resources, and instead just tell him what to look out for. And yes I have read the other thread - I know what he has posted about his knowledge, experience, and resources and truth be told, it is quite vague.

Borrowing from parents, for instance, can be a real hazard. Having said that, if my parents had the cash to partner with me in an endeavor where they provided the finances, I would do it in a heartbeat. Why? Probably because of who my parents are and our relationship dynamic. I would never in a million bazillion years accept money from my sister even if she was a trillionaire, though, because of the same reason - who she is and our relationship dynamic. We can't make assumptions about pitfalls we think he's doomed for... let's just tell him what to look out for instead!

So having said that (sorry about the soapbox... but stuff like that really really bothers me), I will have to say this - Chance, my only piece of advice to you would have been to take it SLOW. I think we all probably have something we've learned to do in our lives... when we first start it takes a bit of time and as we do it more and more, it becomes more second nature to us. I find it best for myself to take on a few projects at a time and learn them until I am comfortable and it is second nature to me (though I still do tend to take on too much at once). It seems you already have a plan for this though, so best of luck to you.

Financially speaking, I know others have said it is such an expensive project and you will end up with mortgages and upside down in debt and massive failure and and and... I think what they mean to say is - you won't have much success with this if you use a lot of debt to get started

chancehayden · #54 03/18/11, 04:26 PM

You and me both brotha. I'd love to help you out but I just have a lot of book knowledge and design ideas in my head and it'll take at least a few years of working on all these projects before I can consider myself any kind of permaculture expert. Once I get on my feet and become an expert in this huge, diverse field I'd love to help you out if you still need it. We could swap some design concepts that we see working or get a little barter system going.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txrider

I would love to have a very experienced permaculture expert helping me out.

ErinP · #55 03/18/11, 06:08 PM

Personally, I would get a J.O.B. right out of the gate. And build from there.

My DH always wanted to run a big ranch for an absentee owner.
Having grown up ranching, he graduated from college with his Bachelor's in AgriBiz and went to work as a cowboy. Given a few years, working on several different places, proving himself both smart and ambitious, he worked up to managing a ranch. And then another. And then another.
(Fifteen years post graduation, he's just a cowboy again and is happier for it. lol)

But something he says over and over again, as much as he values his degree, the experience gained working for different bosses with different methods and different expectations was probably MORE valuable than anything else.

Raven12 · #56 03/18/11, 10:49 PM

Chance, are you in SC now? There is a big difference between coastal SC and upstate. I am not being negative...only asking because I lived in SC.

hotzcatz · #57 03/19/11, 01:46 AM

I haven't seen any mention of aquaponics in your plans? You know, sort of like hydroponics that also have a tank of fish to filter the water and add nutrients? My neighbors have a relatively small setup and they produce more vegetables and fish than they know what to do with. They are going to start a small neighborhood CSA just because there is so much produce.

We have a small chicken flock which varies between a half dozen to three dozen chickens. Hatching and selling eggs is more profitable than selling eggs and selling off adult hens is pretty profitable, too. They are just a backyard flock, though, and if I keep more than a dozen for very long they overgraze and destroy their "pasture" and then feed costs get outa control. I don't think there are as many regulations concerning the sale of chicks than there is for eggs.

geo in mi · #58 03/19/11, 07:45 AM

C'mon up here. The boys at the Teapot Dome will be more than happy to sell you some fine Michigan land(a little swampy) and would like nothing better than to get you started on your venture. Only catch is that you must sign a contract that you will eat breakfast with them every morning and tell them how it's going......

geo

motdaugrnds · #59 03/19/11, 09:33 AM

ROFL .... I've been watching your threads with interest Chancehayden. It is obvious you are educated with much energy and high ambition. I do think you lack a little common sense.

1. 30 dairy goats ... and you plan on "milking" them all? ("bottling equipment" .. pardon me while I laugh!)
2. couple hundred free-range hens ... in amongs virgin acreage with unknown predators?
3. handful of dairy cows ... "dairy" goats AND "dairy" cows? ummmm words fail me here!
4. nut/fruit/vegies/herbs ... and you have considered all the plowing/tilling/fertilization/soil additives?

All those potted plants behind your apartment complex? Do you expect those "trees" to grow and produce fruit there?

"Systems"? "...numerous forage plants (grain grasses, langsquarters, amaranth, chicory, clofer, legumes, other shrubs and small trees, etc)..." And how are you going to get those to grow where you want them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by chancehayden

There are a lot of people saying I can't do it. Step into my mind folks, it's already done.

I like your confidence; however, Chance, you are in dire need of more than just confidence! You sound like someone ordering a meal at a nice restaurant without asking his stomach if he's hungry enough to eat it all.

You stated, "...I just have a lot of book knowledge and design ideas in my head..." and you CERTAINLY have that! I do, however, like your "ideas" of learning all you can learn. Sounds you want to become a "master" of all trades! Believe me, you will need to have many diverse skills to accomplish what you are contemplating. Determination (even experience) will only get you so far. Even physical attributes and "practical" thinking will only get you so far. (There is nothing better than actual experience on the very acreage where you plan to create all this.)

I do think you are on a GREAT path with some wonderful ideas! I just think you still need to bring it down more to be sustainable as a "start-up" project. It sounds more feasible to me for you to actually "purchase" the land you want (in a zoning area useful for you & large enough to expand as you grow) and find out what its soil is like, what the water flow is like & what wild life (animal and vegetation) are there. As I'm sure you know, all areas offer different challenges (weather, pests, soil needs).

**Terri** · #60 03/19/11, 10:18 AM

What Betho said.

I was laughed at for wanting to be in agriculture, and told that it could not be done because I was too small, too female, and that it could not be done by anyone without a farmer to get me started.

But, I bought land, got selling experience, got experience with my chosen crops in my back yard, had a market that was asking for more produce than I could provide in my back yard...... and then I got a chronic illness.

The nay-swayers were wrong, and I COULD have farmed. The only thing stopping me was my illness.

I am now getting more heavily into permaculture, which I believe is what Chancehaydon is talking about. Yes, you do plant the plants you want on your land, and give them care until established. They don't just occur. The POINT of permiculture is that once it is established, they need very little care. A mixed pasture is one ecosystem. My own established asparagus and soon-to-arrive native plums is another: plant once, monitor the ecosystem and tweek as necessary! I water baby plants in a dry spell, scatter fertilizer as they need it, research other food plants that might be suited to my land, etc.