Alright alright, I'll start small

Chancehayden, if you can, find some books called Feeds and Feeding by Ensminger that are at least 130 years old: I found mine at used book sales. Also read everything by a gent called Joel Salatin.

The reason that I reccommend the very old Feeds and Feeding books is because those small farmers had very little machinery, and machinery is expensive for a farmer starting out. Instead of buying machinery they built fences and put their peas and grain and such in fenced paddocks. When the crops were ready they turned the hogs and cattle and such into the fields. It was called "hogging off", and it spared the farmer the labor and expense of harvesting.

Then again, unless managed carefully, goats will bloat. Joel Salatin in "salad bar beef" would move an electric fence a few feet in his pasture every day which brought his animals fresh feed and kept his pastures in exceptional condition.

And while you're at it, why don't you get your PhD, too?

go

I hope you have a significant amount of money to invest -- none of that stuff comes cheap.

You sound eager and ready to do the work, but I really wonder if you understand how much work you're talking about? With that many dairy animals, milking and caring for them alone is going to be a full time job.

And, what are you going to do with the milk? Last time I checked, dairy licenses weren't terribly easy to get. Maybe that's different Stateside, but you can't just sell your milk wherever you like. There will be compliance issues if you're planning on running a commercial dairy.

I think what you're talking about is do-able, don't get me wrong, but it's also going to involve significant startup costs, and a great deal of personal investment -- I'm not sure that ONE person is even capable of doing all you're talking about. Are you planning on doing this with your family? Hired help? That takes cash, too.

__________________
Ignorance is the true enemy.

I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children.

www.newcenturyhomestead.com

Well,when you are ready...I have a friend trying to sell their 45 acre farm, 20 acres in blueberries (was a u-pick at one time). They have enough pines to sell pine straw in the fall. Plenty of room for animals but not all clear cut. They are just city people that found the country life isn't what they thought it would be.

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Life is uncertain, eat dessert first

I've been reading along and saying nothing, but... well.

Dreams are great. But... this is not starting small. And there is a steep learning curve that all the books in the world won't teach you, with animals. For the sake of the living things you will be caring for, scale it down. Start with one species... a flock of chickens, perhaps. Learn to keep them alive and thriving. Perhaps add a few rabbits in, apart from the birds. Better that than lose a dozen innocent goats or calves who are depending on you to painful, drawn out death.

Financing... yeah. Debt is a bad bad thing, especially straight out of school when dreams are big and reality is far away. You'd do better to buy small outright, or even rent a place you can keep livestock, rather than sink yourself into debt on the hope of some animals producing and thriving when you've not worked with them before.

You should also realize, some of the people here have been doing this for generations. LISTEN TO THEM. Don't brush off their experiences bceause you've read a few books.

And too... life changes. If you marry and have children in the next few years (I know, not a consideration now, but... things change) in debt up to your eyeballs with goats dropping like flies and no work experience, what then?

Excellent, I'll look into these! Indeed, it's all about the systems...

There are a lot of people saying I can't do it. Step into my mind folks, it's already done.

Well, one of my professors offered me a Graduate position yesterday, she seems to think I have a knack for community organizing and health program implementation. Another degree may not be out of the question after all. Permaculture fits in seamlessly with healthy communities.

The world you're living in must have 60 hours days. I'm in awe. If you can accomplish all of this, and complete another degree while doing it, you must have found a way to manipulate time.

I really hope, for the sake of the many animals you're thinking of taking on, that you succeed. I really do, but I have to say that I wouldn't bet on it. The idyllic dream of livestock running about, happily munching away on the grass, and gardens spewing forth abundant fruit and vegetables with little effort on the part of the gardener is just that, an idyllic dream. Animals need a lot of care and the amount of time goes up exponentially depending on how many varieties you have. Yes, ten goats take as much time as thirty, for the most part, but goats require different care from chickens, and from dairy cattle, and.... it's not EASY. It takes TIME.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm trying to keep you from becoming discouraged, and trying to save some livestock from becoming the casualties of your learning curve. I realize that there is little chance of your listening to me, because you're young and you have this dream and you're going to DO it... but please, listen to the combined experience of the folks on here. You can't just read Walden or a Seymour book and think that everything falls into place just because that's the way you will it.

With livestock, you're dealing with LIVE CREATURES. You say that you're college-educated, so I'll assume you've heard of Chaos Theory? Apply THAT. That is what it is like, you cannot predict what is going to happen on a daily basis, and it is SO easy for someone who is new to it to become overwhelmed.

Take the advice on these forums as it's meant -- not to discourage you, but to help you ensure success. We've ALL been there. I know you think that you've got it all figured out, so did *I* when we started this, and I grew up on a farm! All your college education won't count for squat when you get your feet on the ground. Between us, DH and I have enough education for six people, and none of it helped us here beyond teaching us how to figure out problems, and there WILL BE problems.

No one has it completely figured out -- no one. You might think that you do, but the reality is so very, very harsh -- I know you think you've come way down in your "dream" from the Costa Rica thing to this, but you're still not there, and really, people here simply want you to succeed. We are not, however, of the school who pads egos in order to make you feel good about your choices -- we will tell you the truth, however much that might hurt, or however much you disagree.

If you DO decide to go ahead on this scale, and by some miracle manage to get together enough capital to do so, please get in touch with your county extension or ag office -- they are an invaluable resource, and might be able to help you achieve some success.

__________________
Ignorance is the true enemy.

I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children.

www.newcenturyhomestead.com

Dreams and reality are a world apart. Do you have enough money to purchase a farm with cash? If not, how do you expect go get financing for your farm without an outside job? For the financing of our smaller acreage we needed proof we could pay for at least three years.

Have you looked into rural land financing? We have 27 acres. The only way we were able to get financing was through a small local bank. They'll finance for seven years and after that we'll have to refinance. The only reasons we could get this loan is that my hubby has done business with them for 30 years and they don't sell these loans. Nobody will buy permanent loans so they just cannot do them.

Have you looked into local markets? Have you looked at your state laws? Who has to inspect your operation? We cannot even give away our eggs and we get a dozen every day and a half to two days.

There are quite a number from this "peanut gallery" who have a lot of experience. Why ask for advice you don't wish to hear? The fact that you've two starry eyed plans so close together gives me even more concern for your ability to look at things realistically.

We have horses. Before any purchase we made friends with a very experienced horsey guy and took lessons for a year or two. We had him choose our first horse. We purchased him before we'd ever seen him because we trusted our friend completely. You see, we had book knowledge on conformation but no real life experience with choosing a quality horse.

You should be able to realize your dream but you're not ready for it now. If you go forward before you're ready you're likely to burn out before your dream becomes reality. It will take many years before you're able to do what you're talking about. It's not going to happen in the very near future.

You need a business plan the same as any start up business. How else will you get financing? Who will finance your dream without tons of experience?

Get real life advice and real life experience. This it totally different than educational experience. Good luck. You're going to need it.

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Moms don't look at things like normal people.
-----DD

I didn’t read the other thread but I love what you are wanting to do and your positive attitude! Like others have said read Joel Salatin’s books. There is also an internship program at his farm that you might look into. Also laws differ by state on selling dairy products so look into that first. I have lived on a farm my whole life and one thing that I can tell you is that there is a pretty steep learning curve with livestock. I don't know that I would start off with 30 milk goats, but who am I to tell you not to? I would strongly advise that you learn absolutely everything you can about any livestock that you will be getting before you get it though. Visit farms and talk to people. Read lots of books. Best of Luck!

People don't like to think someone might be able to do something better then them, so they put you down.

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I'm an environmentalist, left wing, Ron Paul loving Prius driver with a farm. If you have a problem with that, kindly go take a leap.

I'm not putting him down -- I hope he succeeds. But I've been there, and it's a lot harder to do on the scale he's talking about than he seems to think. The dream is nice, and something to strive for, but it's seldom how things work out.

I'm reading (and forgive me if I'm wrong, Chance) that he is in his early twenties, still in college, and has read some books and learned a little bit from other sources about permaculture. He's never actually done it, but he's very knowledgeable about the theories. He lives in a rental apartment and has a container garden in the back -- and this is the sum total of his practical experience.

He wants to take this experience, and move onto a SC farm, raise several dairy cattle and 30 or so dairy goats -- and a hundred or so chickens -- in addition to developing a sustainable garden of fruits, vegetables, nuts and berries.

With 30+ dairy animals, including both goats and cattle, he can't want all that milk for himself. If he thinks so, he's in for a very rude awakening. I know commercial dairies with fewer animals. He's saying he's going to buy milking equipment so he doesn't have to hand milk -- does he know how much milking equipment costs? Does he know how to maintain it? Does he realize the expense of that? Does he have a market for his product, and has he looked into the regulations, licensing and compliance requirements for running a commercial dairy?

Or is he going to feed all those animals commercial (expensive) feed in order to dump the milk down the drain? Because he won't be raising enough food for them on his little patch of land -- not enough to keep milk production up -- not if he's running a dairy. He will NOT have time.

Add to that a flock of 100 chickens. I'm going to assume that he means to raise meat hens here -- because a laying flock of this size boggles the mind for personal use. If it *IS* a laying flock he's talking about, does he have a market for the eggs? We're talking about several hundred dozen eggs a month. Unless he's feeding a family of 10, it's unlikely he's going to use them all for his personal use. Is he aware of the regulations on selling eggs commercially? Has he looked into private markets -- is someone in his target area already flooded the market with "farm" egg sales? Are there regulations on selling eggs at farmer's markets in his target area? Does he realize that a laying flock of that size will require supplemental feed? A flock of that size isn't going to produce eggs on free-range alone -- not consistently.

On top of this, he's going to have a large vegetable garden, and fruit and nut trees. It's all going to be done via permaculture. Yes, long term, permaculture would be the way to go -- but is he aware of how labor-intensive it is to get things set up right, in order for them to thrive? Permaculture planning involves much more than planting a bunch of trees and watching them grow.

Then, he makes an off-hand comment about continuing with school and attaining another degree while doing this. School, alone, is a full time job. Yet he believes he's going to run an idyllic little farm, all on his own, with this much livestock, and possibly continue with his schooling.

As I said, he either has a lot of money at his disposal, or he's dreaming in technicolor. I do hope he succeeds -- if he does it means we've all been doing it wrong for years, and our successes are all by some miracle of nature, rather than utilization of hard work and even harder experience.

I look forward to his updates. I look forward to hearing about his successes. I hope he regulates his dreams to the point where they're attainable, but not to the point of giving them up. I hope I'm wrong.

But I don't think I am.

__________________
Ignorance is the true enemy.

I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children.

www.newcenturyhomestead.com

That may be part of it, but I think for the most part people are really just offering advice because they want to help, and they don't want livestock to suffer. We all know people who have bit off more than they could chew. Many of us have been those people. But nobody here knows you, chancehayden. So maybe you have what it takes to do this. There's no way we can know. If you truly think you can do it, go for it. If you're wrong about yourself you'll find out very quickly. I personally would love to hear about your success.

Have you talked to your parents about helping you? We wanted land desperately but didn't have the credit score or the down payment to do it. My parents did. They bought the farm, we are making payments to them. If we have a rough month and have to skip a payment its no problem to them. We are slowly building a house, planting trees, built a huge pond...
Only one problem. We are not young. (46 & 49 with health issues) I wish I had your strength, energy and enthusiasm!

You can do it. Talk to your parents! My dream is to buy properties, build them up as permaculture farms and give them to my 5 kids. Sigh...only one is interested though.

Also... 1. Stay away from the coast, a tsunami is not fun.
2. Thats way too close to the New Madrid Fault for comfort. Build a quake proof house please!

After it's no longer all done in his mind, and it's on the ground and succeeding, I'm very willing to learn new techniques from him. Just not right now.

I've got nothing against learning that there is a better way to farm than what I've been doing. Bring it on; I'm willing.

I couldn't take care of 30 milking animals, but I can certainly take care of 30 beef cows (I've taken care of more than that), 2-3 pigs, a small flock of chickens and ducks, an orchard of fruit trees (enough to sell), and a small veggie garden (not enough to sell). And do it all by myself.

I could have done a lot more if I'd had an automated irrigation system, but that cost so much I couldn't afford it. It would have freed up time, but not increased income enough to pay for itself.

I've got 45 fruit trees and more on the way. There are about 5 days a year where I have to put in more than 2 hours on the fruit trees, but normally, 5-30 minutes a day is all it takes, and that is with extremely good care and daily inspections.

Getting well organized can really cut down on the time that things take. The better the care that you give to your animals, the less actual time they take and the less it costs you over the long run. If you have excellent fences, you will have many fewer injuries a and no escaped livestock. If you feed excellent feed, you will deal with less illness. If you start with top of the line genetic material, your animals will give you a better return.

Which basically comes down to a huge monetary investment to get started.

Hey, I'm jumping in with my 2 cents, because this is a fun topic Are you planning on starting right into this? If you are, I'm going to suggest that you rethink it. My advice is to find somebody, or more than one somebody, who is doing something similar to what you want to do and work for them for a while. All the reading in the world can't replace practical experience in something like farming. Not saying it's useless, just that you can't rely on it alone.

I have a cousin who spent some years traveling and studying permaculture in different climates and cultures. He spent one year pretty much hitchhiking around S. America working in different places, some time in the US, a little while in Asia. Working on all these different farms, he has gained huge amounts of practical knowledge that he is putting to use now designing systems locally. He could not have gotten that knowledge any other way, and if he would have locked himself into one farm right away, he never would have gotten some of it at all.

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"I am not absentminded. It is the presence of mind that makes me unaware of everything else."
- G. K. Chesterton

If I recall correctly, Chancehaydon is currently working on an organic farm. This should help him with learning about gardening, farming, and salesmanship.

That does not cover livestock, but it is a very good place to start.

My ideas of planning to live small... Now I am a family of 1, with a cityfied mother stopping once in awhile. No outside chores, but she might help with sewing (which is not my best area). I am thinking of a less than 1000 sq ft house. Now mind, most of that is the kitchen and the "addition" of the herbal "surgery". that is a place that I will dry, store, & process herbal medicines, make candles, and begin the canning process, aka extra counter space. It is all on one floor: kitchen, living area, bathroom & bedroom. I do want a loft bedroom & craft area as well for myself. Save the downstairs one for guests.

Outside.... 2 gardens (1 for herbs, other for veggies), about a dozen, maybe 2, of mixed chickens (egg & meat), and some milking goats. Thinking about a half dozen would be great for me & still have enough left over for soaps, cheese, and baking. Also thinking I might have a horse if it is trained to pull a cart, if I live in an area that we won't get run over.

That is about it for right now, and though it is "small", it is all that I would be able to handle. Not to mention in the beginning trying to build the house (if there isn't one available), out buildings, plan the garden areas, set everything up with the persnickety details that will run ya ragged, and STILL try to make a living so you and your livestock can eat something each day.

My suggestion is to take things in steps. It is great to have an end plan, and you can build towards that end, but start slow. Find the land. Build your house. Plan & Prepare your gardens for at least 2 years before doing anything else, except maybe plant a few trees & berry bushes. Once all ThAT is under nominal control <snorts>, then can start planning on adding a species of livestock to the mix. Me it would be chickens for meat & eggs. Once you have them integrated in, THEN start planning on adding in another species. Remember to start slow without too many at once till you have a handle on things.

By doing things slow, you can shorten the consequences of the learning curve, if something goes wrong. Also, you don't waste money, time, energy, and patience.

You seem the type to thrive on a "new" project. Take each step as a project, research it till ya fall over, then do it! Then at the beginning of each winter, find the next project you can research through the snow & ice to work on the next spring/summer/fall while still taking care of what you already have.

So take this plan of yours & put it down to the little steps. Then go from there. I know that you will do this. I know that I will do it as well, if not on so grand a vision. However, if you are going to do it correctly, start slowly & build on what you already have TOWARDS the grand plan.

Just some thoughts for ya....

Thanks for the blatant honesty, it is truly appreciated, even from those who plain say I could never accomplish half of what I "dream." When I describe this, I'm thinking somewhere 3-5 years down the road. That's what I consider "starting." Fifteen years from now, yes I'd love to have 100 goats, 15 cows, 300 hens, acres of food forests and polycultured food fields. Here's what I'm thinking in terms of a timeline, and this is very general and not specific.
Year 1: Buy/rent equipment. Most of the work after Years 1 and 2 will be done with human-powered tools so we may just rent a tractor when we need one. Burm, swale, and grade some of the land. Dig ponds if we need to. Work on clearing some of the land and plant grasses, legumes, and forages for the goats and cows. Build the chicken tracts and chicken houses (this is a brand new idea/system that I'm anxious to try out, it involves building chicken houses on wheels and setting the whole thing on parallel poles to be pushed around the pasture/annual veggie beds). Work on building living quarters for employees/students/WWOOFers/lessees (probably a multi-bedroom, communal residence until we are able to build other residences; would use timber from the land and bamboo preferably and install solar panels). Work on barn and storage spaces for animals. Plant permaculture guilds (including fruit trees, nut trees, forage trees and shrubs, fruit shrubs, perennials, annual veggies). Maybe build a couple hoop-houses. Set up bee hives.
Year 2: Buy ~15 goats, ~50 hens, maybe a couple dairy cows, a handful of pigs and some other animals that we may be ready for (rabbits, ducks, etc). Plant more trees, guilds, veggies, etc. Sell veggies, fruit, honey, maybe a couple pigs, eggs, maybe milk, seedlings (ebay!), and some other value-added products.
Year 3: Buy ~15 more goats, ~50 more hens, maybe a couple dairy cows, and a few more pigs. By this point, most of the pastures, perennial guilds, forages, fruit guilds, etc should be established and maintenance will take a day or two each month. Set up a "you-pick" program with blueberries, blackberries, figs, peaches, persimmons, kiwi fruit, grapes, goji berries, sea buckthorn, plums, apricots, apples, pears, cranberries, cherries, cut flowers, herbs, and heck, maybe even a whole you-pick program for all our fruits and veggies. There will be harvests for CSA members and for farm markets though, it will just be more expensive than you-pick. Charge for tours, maybe hold permaculture classes, hold internship/work exchange/similar programs. Sell goat and cow milk, maybe cheese, butter, cream, and yoghurt. Sell eggs. Raw milk/cheese/butter and free-range eggs are hot commodities where I live and I would imagine almost everywhere. Work on other residences, upgrades, and projects on the property.
Year 4: Buy more animals if we'd like to. Maintain property. Install more value-adding designs and systems.
Year 5: Mostly making profits, giving to the community, revelling in success and living in abundance.

Some of these activities may go elsewhere on the timeline and more or less activities may be included. Feel free to mention some things I've forgotten to include; all this is off the top of my head without looking at any of my notes or pulling up any bookmarked pages.
And yes, I have found a way to manipulate time and it's wonderful.
What else? Hit me with it.