how many feet?
 

the new neighbor insists on squaring off his fence.
problem is that's a encroachment on our property.

I know where the lines at but not sure how to put this in terms for law enforcement.

the property line is at a 86 degree angle to the road, hes on the east side, not sure how to say it but the angle works to our favor as far as the frontage goes.

this boundary is 509 feet long, guesstimate is hes encroaching about 25 feet in the front. not any in the very back. but a little all along that line hes trying to fence. hes out there now popping fence holes. so whats the math to figure this out to the sq foot he is encroaching on.
be nice if I could keep this from going to court as its going to be nothing but hassle. already talked to him told him to look at his deed and I would loan him a tape. hes not listening.

Here's an online calculator. Just use your known dimensions.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html

509 (length) times 25 (width) = 12725 divide by 2 = 6362.5

Where's a copy of your land survey??

Are you saying that he is placing the fence at a 90º angle to the road starting at the back property corner and working forward toward the road and by that time he is 25 feet onto your property?

There are laws that will actually allow him to take ownership of this property if he fences it and you don't raise a fuss. I think around here is is 7 years of "possession" will equal ownership. You had better raise a stink right now and get the authorities involved. It doesn't matter how many square feet he is encroaching on - it is your land and you can actually lose it if you do nothing.

Law of Adverse Possession
Traditional common law provided a method for someone to obtain title to land through use. The common law rules for adverse possession have been codified under both federal and state statutes. A typical statute allows a person to get title to land from the actual owner simply by using the land, out in the open for all to see. For example, your neighbor built a fence on your land with the intention of taking the property, paid property taxes, and you knew about it but did nothing. If this continued for a period of time set by state law, your neighbor may be able to claim this property as his/her own. The theory is that, by not disputing your neighbor’s use of your property through a lawsuit, you, as the actual owner have abandoned your rights to the property. There are several elements needed for adverse possession to result in title:

The length of time required for adverse possession in title varies - it could be as short as a few years or could run for twenty years or more. Typically public entities must establish a longer period of possession than individuals. Some states have adopted a rule which requires the adverse possessor to pay taxes each year on the land.

The possession must be open for all to see.

The possession must be exclusive to him or her (e.g., the fence in the above example, a driveway, road, etc.)

The possession must be hostile to the actual owner of the land.

To gain title to land through adverse possession requires strict compliance with the law, but can have dramatic impact upon land ownership rights.

An encroachment could result in title to your property being transferred to an adverse possessor. Under these circumstances, you might have to bring a lawsuit for trespass in order to prevent your neighbor from getting title to your land through adverse possession.

If you own land, it is important that you do not "sleep on your rights" since you could lose ownership of the land.

"In Michigan, the elements of adverse possession are: ACTUAL, OPEN, NOTORIOUS, EXCLUSIVE, VISIBLE, AND UNINTERRUPTED POSSESSION of the property that was hostile to the owner and under cover of a claim of right for a fifteen-year period. Rozmarek v Plamondon, 419 Mich 287, 295; 351 NW2d 558 (1984)."

I am so blessed to have a gentlemanly relationship with my neighbor. I plant a few tomatoes on a corner of his land, just 'cause it's convenient. He drives his combine up my driveway a few times a year. Fences would be a different matter though. I"m sure he wouldn't want me to fence my tomatoes on his land. I agree that getting it settled before the fence goes up is the way to go.

The property was apparently surveyed at one point in time since it established the 86º angle to the roadway.

The problem I see is that unless you know where the survey pins are or are absolutely certain that the back corner is indeed directly on the corner then you yourself can't accurately say that he didn't start the back corner 25 feet or so off of the property line to start with thus making the fence entirely on his own land.

In some areas township trustees can help with such fencing issues.

If he's encroaching 4 degrees by 509 feet, that comes out to about 35' 7". 4 tanX509.

spend the bucks for a survey and markers being put in and enforce it..otherwise once he gets his fence up there is a chance he can grandfather it in even if you have a survey done later..and you can lose your property !!!!

ronbre is right
pay for the survey, that is the only way to prove your claim
karen is also correct, state your case now, don't wait

an easement is another thing to consider as that would allow his usage, limit his activity and maintain your ownership
I have an easement for my driveway through my neighbors land. I cannot fence it nor make any other changes, except driveway maintenance.

Several years ago I bought a piece of property. The neighbor on one side had claimed a piece of the property I bought. He had the other owners convinced he owned the land but hadn't fenced in the area. Soon after I moved in and started fencing he started putting up a fence where he thought it should be. I advised him he was wrong. Actually his water meter was on my property.
He didn't seem to think they way I did and continued to fence. I went in every evening and tore down all he had done that day. The police were called. I had the survey done when I bought the land and showed the cops the pins. Then I went over and shut off his water meter. There was a lot of complaining and threats made but he didn't have water until the water dept. came out and moved the meter.

It is much better to stop the problem before it is too late or it has grown into something more. That is unless you decide to give him the land.

You need to explain to him that since the property IS NOT SQUARE if he wants to square his fence he has to keep it ALL on his property and thus put some of his land on your side of the fence.
If there is a fence there already be sure to tell him THATS THE LINE. Anything he does on this side of it is tresspass and you WILL Call the Cops.
But try nice first.

Its simple to explain to law enforcement have a copy of your deed in hand and explain your lot is wedge shaped with the big end along the road.
Better yet run now and find some rusty old rebar and put in at the spots you think the corners are. Then you can walk the cops around toe dig with your foot a bit and show them the "Old" corners.

"Better yet run now and find some rusty old rebar and put in at the spots you think the corners are."

This is a game, and if the neighbor decides to pay for a survey, you will be caught. Pay for the survey and marks. You will never be sorry you know exactly where your boundaries are.

I agree about the survey. We are going thru this ourselves,in a way. Luckily we are friends with neighbor so we agreed to have survey done before we start fencing. She thinks her property is 10 ft more than what deed says. She uses our clothesline and was upset cuz she thought I was mad at her at first when I said want a fence put up (my boys are 4 & 2, gson 6 months and 2 dogs). We had planned a gate between so she could use clothesline and we could still visit. This seemed to smooth things with her and no hard feelings cuz I want the survey :)

I recently sold a property that had a deed that said that the front boundary line was straight for over 1100 feet . The neighbor this boundary joined had a deed that said the boundary followed an old fence line that was between the property's & was crooked as a dogs hind leg . We agreed we wouldn't worry about it . His deed was older than mine & it is my understanding that in a case like this the older deed usually wins . My property had been surveyed after he owned his property . Possibly your neighbors deed doesn't match yours concerning this boundary line . Have you compared his deed to yours ?

Be nice if you can settle it peacefully.

I'd be looking ovr the deed, getting a lawyer set up, calling a surveyor, and taking pictures.

If there is any sort of old fence where the boundry is, you need to document it's location _now_. In many states existing old fence of 20 years (as little as 7 years in some states) trumps what an old survey or deed says. You didn't allow him to remove any old fence?

If you talked to him and got no where, you likely need to call the sherriff, and get him to stop tresspassing until this is resolved. No way should you sit back as he continues to build fence on your property. hat is how you lose property.

Depends on how many feathers you want to ruffle, but to preserve your property, you'll have to go that route. Looks like 'being neighborly' has passed by.....

I'd try to frame it as getting to the bottom of this, and it is very possible you both have deeds/ surveys that say different things. Happens all the time. So he might not be 'wrong' based on the documents he has in hand? But no fence building should behappening until this is figured out.

Stop it now if it maters to you.

Will be much harder to stop after the fence is built - then you gotta prove the fence is in the wrong spot. Will eat on you if you don't, so might as well comein now guns a blazing, and get it resolved. If he's ignoring you and running over your property, the 'be nice' ship already sailed.

If your numbers are right, it's 'only' .15 of an acre, but hey it is your property & you are paying taxes on it and you are losing out on big bucks if a developer comes in in 10 years and pays by the square foot for development land, etc....

Might turn out his documents are right, but no reason to roll over & let him run over you without knowing. Keep your head up & try to get to the bottom of it, don't go in yelling & all. But firm, no building until we get to the bottom of this.

--->Paul

No build, no how, not now, survey right away. > Thanks Marc

I agree with getting it surveyed, and if he doesn't agree with the survey, talk to law enforcement. He will be taking the property by adverse possession down the road if you don't take action now.

Title insurance - you did buy it, right? Contact your title insurance company and let them do the legwork.

There should be maps at your county tax office that show the boundaries.
Often you can look them up online

If your neighbor wants a square boundary, he'd have to square it on his property and lose acreage... not the other way around.

If you bend over and take it now, what's to stop him from grabbing more and more?

I'd dig a posthole on the existing corner, fill it with cement with a spike driven in the wet cement, just so it's showing... to establish the existing corner.

Is the existing fence on the neighbors side of the line, already, and he's pulling it up and putting it on your place? If that's the case, I'd set a cross-tie on the corner, stretch a strand of barbed wire six inches on your side of the line (if the line is straight in the deed), and set t-posts every 20' minimum, more if you have them. Then, it's YOUR FENCE and if he touches that, he's in trouble. If he picks HIS FENCE up and moves it, and you don't have a fence, you have less 'boundary mojo' (for lack of a better word).

The old saw about good fences make good neighbors is true... but, you have to own the fence.

so far reading through here CF (post 5) and mushcreek (p 9) are on the mark with what I was trying to spit out.
there is one survey stake on the north west side, the side opposite his fence.
the fence on our west side and the fence on his east side where put up by the original property owner. who split this property. the deed states its 500' on the w and 509 on the e (that's measured from the center of the road and the country has there right of way and easement along the road I think 50 foot from center.) and 175 on both ends ends. the og parcel was 1600 (maybe 1650) by 275. when my parents bought this house they more of less established the the boundary. I measured several times working off the neighbors parcels on both sides and both ways of the original plot, and am satisfied the the line is where it was already determined to be.

even though its a guess it is a educated one, on my part. the property is not really a pie shape. hes trying to square it off based on the fence my parents put around the back yard for the dogs which they did square off but to there detriment and not encroaching, more for aesthetics.

Michigan is a pain in the but on property line disputes. I'm just trying to save everyone involved hassle. law enforcement will tell you its a "cival matter"

he will get a certified letter here in a few days, stating the encroachment and the action to be taken. he changed route after my brother talked to him,hes not what you would call nice in anyway and was already bucking for a "encounter".

basically though mom will need document the encroachment,order a survey,file suit most likely with a lawyer and take him to court. I have no doubt she will be in the free and clear at which point he will be do the survey fee,the legal expense,damages and made to correct the fence. pretty expensive fence if you ask me. when a happy guess based
on 100' off the east fence would suffice. not trying to be neighborly and I am more then aware of adverse possession. which I think he is trying to achieve which is not neighborly. a few inches a foot is one thing but 37' 7" of frontage is another.

I think we set a precedent that he can not claim AP, still need to follow up though.

there are a few places that the old poles are, one is our back corner the other midway and one at the county right of way easement.

I would get those old post locations documented with pictures and whatever, before they disappear.

Good luck with it.

--->Paul

On documentation - the county road dept., power company, utilities, and aerial photos from the Federal govt. may all show any old poles and boundary marks. One of my very first jobs as a pro photographer was verifying in court the locations of boundary RR ties and stakes in a property dispute. The road commissioner's old Polaroid photos and my testimony clinched the case.

You won't have to do an entire survey just to find the corners on his side.

There should already be an iron pipe set in the ground that can be found with a good metal detector

Get it surveyed I have delt with this a couple of different times. The oldest TITLE will always hold up in court not the oldest deed. A deed is completly worthless with out title to the land of which it speaks. My father had it out with the mayor of the local town over this. The guy had a deed that called for 15 acres of land, but when the title was ran the land had never been taken off of the title of my fathers which meant the he still owned then land. This was a scam type thing back years ago. Some one would sell a person land but never cut the title. The judge in the case stated some law that says a deed will only be looked at in a court of law if the title to said deed has been proven, and then it will go off of the oldest title to the property. So get the survey. The company will do a title sreach and if you own it then it very simple. But also know that if you dont own the title it is his. My nieghbor was fighting with one of the others over property lines and when everything was done me and 2 others property owners ended up with more land because he did not have title to little pieces here and there. I was not even involved in it but got 6 acres more when all was said and done. Which was great since it is the only flat land I have other then my yard. Also another note if you get the survey spend the extra to have the corners set with a GPS plate in concrete, not just a pin. Many people pull pins and more them which end up costing another survey. I have all mine set with a 2x4 inch steel plat that give the GPS cord. of the corner and placed it in 12x12 inch concrete. this way if they try to move it there is a big hole in the ground as evidence.

Yuppers - stop trouble before it gets larger. If you don't know where a corner stake is, and don't want all your property surveyed, call & see if a surveyor will just stake the side in question.

Just because a neighbor want's to have things pretty doesn't necessarily make it so.
Just because you don't want to make waves, doesn't necessarily make it right.

This may be your forever property, but things happen & if you have to sell, let me tell you - you're gonna have to know where the property lines are (buyers are getting more knowledgable) & you'll have a fight with your neighbor then, loose a sale, or have lost that part of your land through adverse posession then.

If a sale goes through & for some reason nothing is disclosed, you also may be sued later. My neighbor is suing the title comapny and former land owner for non-disclosure.


You just never know...

My experience is that a lawyer will write you a "back off Bozo" letter for about $75.

There is nothing that works quite as well as legal letterhead to make a difficult neighbor back off if the neighbor is in the wrong.

However, I can't see how you can complain of encroachment if you don't actually know where the property line is located. It might not be where you think it is.

I didn't read all of this,but take it from me. Every single piece of property Ive Owned/lived on , dealt with this issue. If he wants a straight line- he gives YOU the extra. HE pays for the survey, the fence, the Lawyer the whatever. Protect yourself and Do Not let him put any kind of fence on your property.It will become his, the law will side with him because he "is maintaining the land".One day or 7 years-it will become his. Michigan is not on the side of the Owner.

If you don't care about owning that part of the land, have you considered offering to sell it to him? If you do care, you need to defend it, 'cause he's taking it. Defending will probably require a survey, at a minimum. Since there is a dispute, you should split the cost. Our survey cost 35 cents a foot on dry ground and 45 cents a foot in the creek. If he won't split the cost, you're probably stuck with it. Think of it as a necessary expense for defending your land.

Once you get a survey, think about putting up a fence on it. Then you won't have to go through this again in 10 years when he sells his property to someone else.