to get the best tasting tomatoes - don't water them!

Here in the central desert of Arizona, I don't keep my tomatoes soaked but there is no way I could leave for a two week vacation in the summer (which is our usual tomato growing season) without arranging for water as the OP suggested. This past summer, I experimented with planting my determinant tomatoes close together in soil that had been heavily amended with compost. I was pleasantly surprised that I was able to get by with twice-weekly watering during the 115+ degree days. Considering we get maybe 8" of rainfall per year (generally within two three-month periods; mid/late summer and winter) and are in something like year 14 or 15 of a longstanding drought, I would absolutely LOVE to hear how I can grow tomatoes and other non-desert veggies without supplemental watering!!!!

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If soil is so hard that a post hole auger isn't going to penetrate it, then it's not soil to be planting any tomato in. If it's that hard, then digging a hole will create the same effect as a container since water should not be able to pass through it.

If soil is so bad bad that it can't retain any water, again it's not soil to be planting any tomato in. Again, hole may be dug and soil replaced with a medium which will retain water.

Both of the above are done by serious gardeners who must garden under those conditions. There are separate forums just for those on Garden Web and there's the Dirt Doctor in Texas. Texas, in particular, is where water-retention materials are quite common whereas they are seldom seen around here except for containers. With watering restrictions in some of the SW areas, that's the only way to avoid using 10 times more water than the plant needs.

As for how the soil dries, it does appear to dry from the top down due to the surface moisture evaporation in the dry air. However, moisture is constantly being drawn up by the atmosphere. Even in the deserts, moisture can usually be found under a rock.

Martin

no argument there. its a god forsake type of dirt imo. but it is what it is. and yet it still grows a garden well. but with the extreme temps this past summer. watering was a necessity.

next yr, i will try burying them till about 90% is covered. im interested in the outcome. not all of them, but a few.

One question I have about the Southern tomato season. All the snow birds who come back here from Florida in April bring a sack of ripe tomatoes with them. Is it different in Texas and Arizona that you grow tomatoes in July--August like we do here in the North? Wouldn't you have better results by starting in December--January(like they do in florida?)

Also, does anyone use water retaining gel crystals?

geo

Growers in the hot weather states must arrange for their tomato plants to set fruit before temperatures become too hot. That's why now is when Floridians are starting their plants. With most varieties, pollen melts at 80ºF so there would be no pollination.

One of the organic method of water-retaining materials common in dry areas is lava sand. Never see it up here but it's widely available in Texas. The deeper one distributes it, the more effective it is.

Remember one important thing. In gardening, if one can't change the Zip Code, then change the garden.

Martin

If you are talking starting seeds indoors many do - but if you are talking planting them outside - we have winter in most parts of Texas during certain months. Now they do grow some things all year in the Rio Grande Valley, and parts of the coastline. Sometimes they do have freezes there and frosts.

When we drove to New Jersey a few years go, I was absolutely open mouthed at all the water there is in that part of the country. It is an entirely different world than it is here - water wise.

About 3 years ago, we had 30 consecutive days of triple digit weather here in NE Texas, and it quit raining in April and didn't remember how until November. That's NE Texas.

We haven't even begun to talk about Central Texas - and West Texas -

Dec and Jan. we can get snow and ice in Dallas, we're a 5+ hour drive from the ocean. I've seen snow as late as March here (unusual but it does happen), average last frost date here is March 5th. True the snow and ice only lasts a couple days, but enough to kill young tomato plants.

Florida's temp is regulated by having ocean on 3 sides, in the 7 years I lived in Orlando the temp never got above 100 or below 40. We get the northern winds here in the Dallas area. Dallas is not very far from Oklahoma where the winds come whipping off the plains.

I usually transplant seedlings about April 1st and by June am getting tomatoes, but can keep pulling tomatoes off the same plants through November (I just pulled the last of them 2 weeks ago.)

I have tried the crystals and don't really see a difference, perhaps the extreme heat causes them to not work correctly - not sure, but it didn't help any that I could see.

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Haven't any of you guys in Texas heard of pvc pipe, visqueen, and mulch? The soil horizons on my ranch change when I walk a foot. It ain't something unique to Texas nor are late frosts, no rain, and triple digit temps...I'm surprised at you, a Californian showing a Texan the gardening ropes! But if your like most Texans they are more stubborn than my donkey, they will keep going around telling the world how much they know regardless I am sure... lol

Here in the desert, we do indeed start our tomatoes in Dec/Jan (which happens to be when we get our winter rains.) It doesn't freeze too often, I can't remember the last time temps dropped below 30 (I know it happened but it was a long time ago.) With a little protection, tomato starts do quite well. When the 100+ temps roll in around May, the plants are usually in full production. I've had them producing through June/early July, and quite a few gardeners find if they can nurse them through the summer that they get a decent fall crop from the same plants. In fact, I know a few people who cover their fall-planted tomato plants against frost and are able to get a jump-start on the spring/summer crop.

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Ever tried? Ever failed? No Matter, try again, fail again. Fail better.

- Samuel Beckett

Last two posts are great advice for those Texans who think that the only thing they can do is wring their hands and dispense $10 worth of water in a $5 plant. After amending the soil for water retention, next is to avoid the sun and heat from taking a major toil. Shade cloth is the first line of defense and proven to be very effective. To date, there has been no reason for not using it if one wants decent tomato production. It may extend fruit-setting up to a month or so with certain varieties. It either has to be that way or sit around wringing hands and looking for pity. Tomatoes and the US SW do not get along without major adaptations and that ain't going to happen by merely planting a seedling and waiting to reap the harvest. One has to work a bit to create a different environment for the plants and not what Nature is forcing them to endure.

Martin

I have used shade cloth with some success, but without a lot of babying my plants have taken a great beating even WITH shade cloth when the temps go above 110. Our current garden location has proven to be a winner though. It's small, about 10x20' and bordered on the north and east by a 6' fence. The west side is shaded by a large orange tree, and on the south by a shed and a smaller orange tree. It gets a good 8 hrs of direct sun a day in the summer but also a lot of shade. Last summer was the first garden in this location and I was absolutely stunned by how well the tomatoes did, given that the location was by most definitions a poor choice for a garden due to the amount of shade it gets. I can't really do much with it during the winter because it doesn't get enough sun, but I figure that gives me a whole season to build up the soil with compost. That's another advantage of living where it doesn't freeze often... we can compost pretty much year-round with a little planning. And we really DO need a lot of help with soils around here; it seems to be either too sandy or too clay-ey. However, with the addition of a lot of organic material we've had good luck countering those problems.

At any rate, we are also limited in the varieties we can grow. Anything over 60 days or so runs a good chance of getting wiped out by the summer heat before reaching full potential so I stay away from those. For anyone who lives where heat is a problem, I heartily recommend Heatwave. They are determinant vines with decent sized fruits. I had a few this past summer that were over 14 oz, which is a pretty darned big tomato for around here. They set fruit well into our hot summers and produce what I think is a decent crop. The fruit has a good tomato flavor and I've heard from those who have problems with acid say they aren't as acidic as store-bought.

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Ever tried? Ever failed? No Matter, try again, fail again. Fail better.

- Samuel Beckett

Gee thank you Californians and Wisconsonites and others outside of Texas for showing us dumb Texans who have been gardening here for years and even decades and some of whom have take master gardening courses from Texas A&M how ignorant we really are. We all bow down before your immense wisdom and knowledge about Texas gardening.

might want to move this one to G.C.

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That is interesting. I had some leftover plants that I set in an out-of-the-way part of the yard and neglected all summer. The full-sized ones didn't do well at all, but the cherry tomatoes flourished, albeit producing a slightly reduced harvest. (However, when you're talking cherry tomatoes, that means you only got 1000 fruits rather than 10,000, LOL.) They were some of the best-tasting tomatoes I grew last year!

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Thanks, I noticed that in the original YouTube that their tomatoes were cherry---and wondered just how many more they could have gotten with some water--but were too enamored with their permie ideas to consider.....

Plus, perhaps some of the OP cherry tomatoes are closer to the originals, which grew under extreme climate(wild) conditions, before all humankind genetic tampering to adapt them to gardens....

geo

You Texans and Arizonans can get free help in about another month. Most larger communities now must shred their Christmas trees and recycle them rather than dispose of them in landfills. Many are willing to bring a full dump truck load. Get enough to cover the entire growing area with at least 4", nothing less. It will retain water applied from above and prevent evaporation from below. At the end of the growing season, till it into the soil where it will be useful the following season for the same reasons. If the soil is clay or sand, it will be doubly useful in amending the soil structure. Repeat annually and the deeper one goes with the tilling, the better.

There's also one variety noted for being able to set fruit at higher temperatures and that is Creole. I had somehow assumed that it was probably a so-so tasting tomato. I grew it this year and was pleasantly surprised by its quality. Seeds will be made available later.

Martin

Neat....how many plants per bale?

I know what works best here and I will water as NEEDED!!!!
My tomatoes taste GREAT!!!!!


Oh, and it doesn't make me a bad person!!!!James

Sepp Holzer was able to grow a huge lush garden in a desert in spain (three inches of rain per year) without any irrigation by using hugelkultur techniques.

As for "I water my tomatoes and they taste great": then I would like to suggest that you never put one of these in your mouth - you might find any other tomato to be bland afterward.

Yes, if you try to grow tomatoes in thin soil, you better water them or they will die. The key here is that this is not thin soil. The video shows something about three feet thick. And there are examples of other hugelkultur beds that are even taller. And there are examples of places that have really deep soil.

I share these videos with the idea that some people might consider this path. So I guess some people enjoy the path they are already on and do not wish to consider this path - that's fine!

Here is another video of a fella with deep soil and the video is in august and he has not watered his garden:

http://www.youtube.com/paulwheaton12#p/u/3/4KLt6R90VlQ

Here if a video of a fella that laid down three feet of wood, put some soil on it, and has a jungle of riparian species growing in desert climate which he waters just once per summer:

http://www.youtube.com/paulwheaton12#p/u/18/lWaEEdB6GZM

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[QUOTE=Dead Rabbit;4795290]3 ft of soil?? a man would have to rent an escavator for that.....it would be easier to garden in containers.



Paul tried that too--in a 40 acre alfalfa field! totally ruined it.

thanks all .. interesting albeit slightly flamey thread .. but some of the cooler heads have it down soil improvement. it will take years but in the long run it will be incredible results. be not as concerned with this year as what will come tomorrow and permanently.. sort of a permaculture thing lol. grow and care for the land and it will pay you back