Animal Abuse ???

Thank you I do appreciate that. I'd hate to think that my neighbors didn't like me because of where I'm from or something like that. So far everyone has been very friendly. I definitely can relate to being resentful of somebody who shows up and tries to change the way you do things, or somebody who has his nose in your business.

For my part, I'm here just minding my business. I would never presume to tell my neighbors what to do, that would be rude and pushy. I'm new here and I have to get used to the way things are here, not try and change everything to accommodate me.

What can I say, have been watching this post. Wasn't sure I wanted to post, but now I have to. I grew up on a working Ranch, 1652 acers (horses and cattle). The husband and I had to move to the city to get jobs, and raise our childern, Dad sold the Ranch. We now live on 4+ acers, I wish I could afford to buy 1600 acers. Now to animal abuse. This little hobbie farmer knows an old horse/cow, a maintained animal from one that is not being feed or worse.

I know the feeling SFM gets. Happened when I lived in the mountains (the same Adirondacks you live in Kirk) and it happens up here to the north. It's not the "Ken and Barbie Farm" that gets you, it's nice to see place kept up. It's the complaints about EVERYTHING- The cows are muddy (it's spring pal), the horses have flies on them, the horses poop in the road, I got manure on my Beemer, what's that SMELL????, why do the Amish have to drive on the road? Don't they have their own roads to go on? We should pave another lane just for them! What's "whey" and why does it stink so? What do you mean we can't get cable and DSL? How come there's no lines on the roads? We should have a multicultural festival instead of the Old Home Days with all that farm stuff (in this 100% white town that embraces it's Scotch heritage.) There was a goat running loose down the road and a "wolf" was chasing it so I called the police and they told me to SHOOT IT!!! We had to drive to Syracuse to get good Thai food, I don't know why we don't have a good Thai restaurant in town (with it's 3 diners), did you know our school system doesn't offer dance? Our school back home had 3 different dance electives and that was just the Middle School!!! OH MY GOSH ONE OF YOUR HORSES IS DEAD IN THE FIELD!!!!!" No it's not, horses lay down sometimes to sleep.

That was just one neighbor, the same one that couldn't fathom why her Golden Retriever chasing my sheep was a problem. "He does love to frolic, he'd never hurt them....". Whoa boy, nice lady, but just not cut out for rural life. After a few decades of that you get kinda cynical.

I would definitely back this statement also. We had a horse bruise his foot. He's very tender footed and it was healing along with Epsom salt soaks, but someone heard about him limping and standing out holding that foot up. Not much we could do till nature healed it, but they threatened us none the less that unless we called a vet that we were guilty of animal neglect. HUH?!! So, we called the vet. Vet said, "Yep, it's bruised" charged me $100 and left. Nothing he could do, but at least we had the paper work. I tend to like the idea of you leave me alone and i leave you alone idea also. Way too many people with too much time on their hands.

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"Be still sad heart, and cease repining. Behind the clouds, the sun is shining. Thy fate is the common fate of all. Into each life, a little rain must fall." -Longfellow

We had a neighbor who raised horses. My daughter wanted a horse for her birthday, so he told my husband to bring her around the place where he kept his horses and he would find her one.

When they unloaded that horse, it was nothing but backbone and ribs. I couldn't believe it. The neighbor had seen the horse starving in a field and told the owner to please sell him the animal. He did. My daughter decided no one was ever going love that horse like she would - and no one was able to talk her out of it.

She never rode the horse, it was't broke. It did follow her around like a dog, though. I can see see her laying out under the tree reading and that horse standing there with his head down close to hers.

It was a beautiful horse by the time we had to sell the farm and by that time, she loved boys and was going off to college.

Exactly. You do get tired of listening to it and unfortunately, as I've said, it seems there are more of those than of the kind that try to fit in, or at least those are the ones you remember.

The best farrier and horse trainer we had in our small community had the misfortune to have one of these move in beside him. After maybe two years of this, the farrier sold out and moved. Said it was that, or he'd end up shooting the guy.

By then the neighbor had horses of his own, naturally, and they needed to be shod. For some reason he couldn't seem to find a farrier that would come out and do it. He finally called one of the local vets and asked him to recommend a farrier who would come out and shoe.

The vet, unfortunately for this gentleman, happened to be both friend and client of the farrier that had moved. The vet said, very bluntly, that everyone in the county in the horse business knew his harassment was what caused the best farrier in the county to leave and that none of the other farriers were interested in shoeing his horses. His recommendation was that there were good farriers connected with the Vet school in Colorado, it was only a 7 hour drive to get there and they probably wouldn't care who he was.

I know ... my story is exactly the same as yours. Lived on a "hobby farm" for 20 years because I couldn't commute to town 5 days a week, 120 miles round trip, especially during the Montana winters ... and I had to work to raise kids and support myself as well. I couldn't afford more acreage close enough to town to make it practical to work there.

And there were a lot of us in that situation.

A legit animal neglect/abuse case is one thing, but I think that often as not it is some idiot from the city who has no idea what farm life is like and what animals look/act like that cause more harm then good. We had a normal, healthy Jersey cow who calves on a Sunday. On the following Monday we got a call from a local deputy saying they had a complaint about a "cow laying down in our field with an engorged udder". My husband explained that it was a MILK cow and that she had just calved 24 hours earlier and was simply laying down, as cows do. Thankfully we were dealing with a deputy with a brain. Had this been the county ACO we would have been cited for animal cruelty or neglect. Yes, he would have been wrong, but we would have had to go to court to prove it.

I know this is what would have happened because he did just that multiple times over a 2 year period. Each time he cited us for something we had to go to court and fight it and each time we won, but he just came back and did it again. He had decided that everyone who bred dogs was a puppy mill. He decided that breeding dogs and selling them was some how illegal (it was not in our county). He decided that our QH mare who had a abcess (caused by a gravel she had picked up months earlier) in her foot was somehow a neglect case because she had a funny divot in her hoof wall while it grew out. He was convinced that ALL cows were round and fat like beef animals, even Jerseys and if they were not you must be starving them. Same with dairy goats vs meat goats.

We ultimately moved out of the county because we were sick of the hassles. He came onto our property numerous times without a warrant, we know this because he actually documented it in his reports. His boss, the county Sheriff knew he was doing this and yet did nothing to stop him. He did this sort of garbage to many people in our county and got away with it because most would not fight him in court and just paid fines to make him go away. We considered a law suit, but our lawyer felt that it wouldn't be worth the hassle and that we would come away with little or nothing to show for all of our efforts.

These PETA/H$U$ tainted ACOs are horrible and this is a situation that is just going to get worse. The more people we have in that position of power who are non-livestock folks the worse it will be. The more city folks who move to the country and gripe about the flies and the poop and the noise, the worse it will be. It is a shame but there are a lot more of them then there are of us and that will just keep going in that direction.:-(

Would be willing to bet that there is a LOT more to the story than you are saying and/or know. The state laws of KY will not allow this to go on unless a warrant is issued, I know that first-hand. As is, it just doesn't make sense. Not knowing horses in KY? I think not! Lived in this state well over 50 years and never heard of this going on anywhere in the state.

Since you apparently know what this case is, please post info, as details in cases in KY are open to the public, so will be happy to post any facts that become available about what parts of this story are being left out. Something is not making sense about the story.

Looks to me like that outfit that called in the HSUS has some whack-jobs at the helm. Going onto someone's property without permission or a warrant is trespassing and taking someone's property without a warrant is theft. They should be indicted and prosecuted just like any other criminal. Just because you think that you are doing something right does not mean that you can break laws at will. The people who took part in this illegal seizure can and should be sued, as sometimes monetary penalties are the only thing that some people understand.

As to the guy at the HSUS they are quoting, it does not say that he was the one who made the original statements, but nonetheless, they are supposed to make sure that they only participate in legal activities and sounds like they too are ripe for a lawsuit for their part as well.

All organizations have whack-jobs in them (churches, schools, the VFW, the NRA, etc.); however, that does not mean they are all bad, to me.

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Supply and demand - Not just a good idea, its the law.

Glad to see you say that, otherwise, would call you a "carpetbagger" as you came to my state.

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Supply and demand - Not just a good idea, its the law.

Yes, I've had a bit of an "odd" progression through my life. Grew up on a small ranch (1000+ acres). From there to city (Las Vegas, NV and then Madrid, Spain)

From Spain back to Montana ranch, briefly in Sheridan, WY (for work) then to a 8 acre "mini farm" so I could commute to work. After 20 years, back to a remote ranch with 1000s of acres and 10 years ago, to 14 acres in KY.

All I can say is that I never lived in a town/city by preference, only from necessity.

I will also mention that even for "country" people, moving from one area in the country where you've grown up and know the habits and customs definitely does not guarantee that you will find it simple to fit into a rural community in another part of the country. Like all places, the customs and mindsets can be greatly different and you may find it difficult to "fit in" even if you come from a rural background.

You will have a foundation and probably not make as many mistakes as an urbanite will, but it isn't necessarily easy.

Mickie I think you are being naive about the way the system works. They are banking on their ability to frighten and bully people and that you will not have the money or backbone to fight them in court. Mr. Christensen lost a huge amount in both money and for lack of a better way of putting it, genetic material, when they raided his farm. While he did get some of his dogs back in the end, most of them either died while in the "care" of these idiots or were adopted (insert here SOLD) by the so called shelter.

In the end he won, if you can call it that, but not really. They acheived their goal, they put him out of business. That is what they are after. They know that even if they do things illegally and it is tossed out of court they will win in many cases. If they don't get what they want from their first less then legal attempt they will go at it again either in the same way or a different one, but once you are on the radical AR folk's radar you are really screwed.

Also should add that if you look at most of the cases of so called animal abuse or neglect often as not you will see that they offer a trade off to the person. They are told that if they sign their animals over they either won't be charged at all or they will be much milder charges. This is done for a number of reasons. It makes you look guilty in the eyes of the public (therefore they look good and noble for "saving" the poor animals) and it also gives them the chance to move the animals on. It also gives them the chance to move the animals on faster, often for huge amounts of money. The Oregon Humane Society has on many of the raids they are involved in gotten dogs from a so called puppy mill in on a weekend and have them spayed/neutered and up for adoption for $300-400 each by the next Thursday. I really don't know how you can do this with animals that are truly abused or neglected.

The other way that they get people to sign away their animals and their rights is that they pile huge fees on the keeping of the animals that they confiscate. You will be told that you will be responsible for paying $x per day per animal, plus any other expenses they can tack on to the bill, on top of the legal expenses you will also have to pay in order to win the right to own animals freely again.

Some interesting reading: http://gooddogowners.blogspot.com/20...ts-update.html Similar to the Christensen case she "won" in the end, but they destroyed her pack and attempted to ruin her reputation. Par for the course with the AR groups.

This case is not in Kentucky, just the person involved was at the WEG games in KY at the time the horses were confiscated. I know of it from two sources. I know the person involved though just to the extent that we've corresponded about horse breeding topics a number of times over the years. There was a major thread on one of the equine sites when it happened and that was shut down when it got nasty, but all of the comments were mostly "he said" "she said" ... nothing from any legal sources. Also, if the records are public and could be accessed on line all that would be available now, I would think, would be the complaint and that the animals were picked up, since it has not gone to court yet.

It's been a couple of months and the last date set was sometime later this month. I do not feel comfortable about posting any further information until the court case itself is settled as there is no way to get any information other than the allegations of the original complaint and the records, if any, of the pickup. There were a couple of pictures on the "shut down" thread that were supposed to have been taken at the time the horses were taken and those photos showed two different animals that were in good condition, no backbone, no hipbones, no ribs showing.

I don't know if there is any documentation of whatever efforts were made to contact the owner, or if there were such efforts made. I do know that the owner does have an attorney and does have witnesses that will testify in the case.

Uh oh...

It would seem there are millions of cattle all over the plains and mountain states that are being abused.
Someone better start making calls 'cause it'll take YEARS to investigate this!

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~*~Erin~*~
SAHM, ranch wife, sub and quilt shop proprietress
the Back Gate Country Quilt Shop

What I want to see is the AR groups ... on horseback ... trying to put range cows in barns so that they can see them up close to determine if they are, in fact, in poor condition and in need of shelter!

THEN I'd like to see what happens when one of these "oh, the poor cows" do-gooders gets in a pen with a range bull and tries to walk up to it!

Oops! What do you mean you can't reach 911 on a cell phone from here?

I do believe in minding one's own business... however, when there is clearcut abuse/neglect, someone needs to be strung up on an overpass going into town, with a sign proclaiming "I Starved My Animals".

Back in the 80's, one of sack of excrement cousins let a couple hundred cattle slowly starve to death... all winter with no feed. By January, there were several hundred buzzards perched on every fence post surrounding the lot... they were use to my grandpa feeding them hay/feed, and when he passed away the family decided to sell them, as there'd be no one to take care of em... the Sack O' "poo" cousin showed 'papers' that they belonged to him. He wanted the cattle and the money they'd bring, but not the work/care involved taking care of em. Bank Prez called my pa and wanted to know if he'd assume granpa's 'note'... come to find out granpa had 'co-signed' as guarantor for the "S of S" cousin. Pa said sorry, they belong to the Evil One.

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GF thought one of my cousins females was being abused/neglected... she was sunk in and paunchy...[the dog, not the cousin] of course she was feeding seven hungry anatolian puppies... now that she's seen how pretty much all momma dogs react to 'hungry pups', she 'knows better'.

It may not be any of my business if someone decides to starve an animal, for whatever reason. IF you do want to starve one, keep it out of my sight. I see buzzards eating a critter, I'll hollar at the owner myself... sometimes they don't know they've got buzzard predation... sometimes they do... Easy to call the Constable, a horse person... he is the first contact. Reckon he gets along with everyone, 'cept the local meth heads and other thuggers... if a person is having trouble finding feed, he can point em to where they can get some.

If you can't feed your critters, sell em or eat em... don't let em starve, unless you're starving too...

I find it hard sometimes to pay all my feed bills... But, all of my critters get fed regularly, no matter how much it costs.

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

Exactly. When I worked both at the police department and later at the VA hospital we sometimes got people living on the street and one of the biggest issues we had was that they had nobody to care for their dog and they wouldn't give it up. I've seen some people that were obviously going hungry part of the time but I never saw one of them with a dog that was not being fed. It was all they had and they were determined to care for it and not give it up.

Yes I've had horrible, insane neighbors in my life too. I don't expect the people in "the country" to all be 100% perfect either. I'm very sure that there are plenty of pain in the butt people, born and raised outside the city.

To be honest, all I do expect is to not be bothered. I'm not here to "fit in" with the community or make a million friends. I'm here to do my thing and let others do theirs.

Would this be abuse, or just plain ignorance?:

A neighbors 65 y/o husband dies. She gets a new 60 y/o boyfriend a few weeks later. He moves in. Previous husband had a Belgium horse team. New husband takes over feeding and brings his 4 horses and 1 Belgium mule with him. Soon only 1 Belgium, then none. Then 3 horses, then 2. Finally just 1 horse & 1 mule.

Seems he was trying out silage as a feed!! THe pasture was poor to none, and the only thing he was feeding was rotten round bales & silage!! How the other 2 made it, I don't know. People told him horses can't eat that, but he kept it up. What did they know? He had over 50 acres. Only 2 fenced in, and they were bare. Just get off your butt & fence in some GRASS!

So he has these last two - switches to round bales he bales. Weeds, rained on grass and over dried grass. THey survive. They were "turned in" a few times. Nothing happened.

Finally someone offers to buy them. The mule looks like a skeleton with rain rot. The horse was actually just about right. I figured the mule was an old man. The people that bought them live on the road I go to work, so I saw that he really didn't gain any weight or improve coat condition.

Last month I find a listing for the mule on Craigslist, listing him as a well broke 10 y/o. He either sold quickly, or was sent to auction, cause now he is gone. I felt sorry for him, anyone that came to see him in that condition would either run away, or feel bad for him and rescue him.

Now the neighbor has no horses - but bought 5 bred heifers at auction with the $$. They are locked in the delapadated barn. Once in awhile they break out and graze along the road with their newborn calves. They look "fat" enough - but not "happy". They could run away when they get out, but stay close to the road & barn.