Opinions on Rat poison needed.

Dances In Woods · #41 12/31/03, 10:21 PM

I have also heard beans will kill them because they can't expell gas.

Beans, beans the magical fruit ...the more you eat the more you poot.

comfortablynumb · #42 01/01/04, 01:42 AM

rats 24" long without mesuring the tail?

i think you got some other critter, I aint never sen a rat that big... your talking muskrat size, bigger than that!

well at least they would make easier targets.

gobug · #43 01/01/04, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Wheaton
[B

Again, just because somebody else uses pesticides doesn't mean that I will, or should.[/B]
I totally agree.

Paul,
In my business I strive to solve problems without applying any chemicals. My clients seek me because I don't spray first. Even if I don't buy all of your logic, your customers see the merits and appreciate the end result. I am not trying to convince you to use pesticides. In some ways we are very similar. I visit this site just because I want to live more like you. I appreciate your thoughtful replies and have taken time to return the favor.

By law, food cannot contain pesticide

Are you sure? My customers are ultra sensitive to it and my food does not contain pesticides.

I should have written that food cannot contain pesticide as an ingredient. Isn't it ironic that it can be on the food as a contaminant.

As for rodenticides building up on your land, they don't sell products like that anymore. You are still in the 60's. You have more poisonous products under your kitchen sink than I carry in my service truck.

Are you sure about that? You don't even know what I have under my sink. We stick to pretty organic stuff and we use it quite sparingly.

Organic doesn't equal non-toxic. Nicotine is organic. If you have any soaps, or disenfectants then you have products more toxic than what I carry.

I just suggest you resort to science instead popular myth.

Back atchya buddy.

Popular myth is that the meat you buy in the grocery store is safe. But the truth is that steer ate the herbicide treated grass and the insecticide treated grain. The toxins were stored in the beef fat. The consumer eats the toxins. The toxins build up and cause cancer. This is what started the whole thing about "red meat causes cancer". It isn't the red meat. It the toxins fed to the animal.

Conclusion jumping and generalization are hard at work in your statement. Not all ranchers follow your train here. All toxins do not build up.
All toxins do not cause cancer. Everyone who uses or contacts carcinogens do not get cancer. All ranchers do not use the same products. The connection between toxins and cancer is not as clear as you claim.

Popular myth is that the bread you buy in the grocery store is safe. I have seen then dumping insecticides into the grain as they put it into the elevator. I asked "what's that?" and the guy said "kills what tries to eat the wheat".

More conclusion jumping here. I'm guessing the product put into the elevator was aluminum phosphide, unless it was long ago. Nothing else is legal anymore. The product is solid and gases out. It has no residual. The byproduct, a salt, is captured in a bag and discarded. They used to toss it into the food without a bag. The salt is so fine it falls out and doesn't go with the food. An increasing percentage of these products are not treated at all.

Don't take my word. Ask for safety data sheets for all the chemicals you use.

I have. It was required reading for the master gardening class I took. That was the scariest stuff I've ever read. I'm surprised they are allowed to sell it to the general public. The relly funny thing is that that information is required by law to be provided with the product. But I never see it with the product. One time I even asked and got a lot of run around.

I don't accept that you have read all the safety data sheets. The information must be provided if requested, by law. I get the same reaction. Don't even think about asking questions about whats on the MSDS. I bought a bottle of acid patina to color concrete and when I asked for the MSDS I got an ugly face. I stepped out of line and read it before I purchased the product. The MSDS said the rinsate should be discarded according to state and local regulations. I asked. They went and got the manager to say "I don't know."

Way too many people don't know what they are doing and do it wrong. Thus making the world a more toxic place for all the rest of us.

I agree. More than 90% of US citizens do their own pest control and often use more than 10 times the dosage of a pro.

Before reading those safety sheets, I was more of an IPM person.

IPM is a buzzword without a formal definition. To me it means using your brain instead of applying chemical. IPM does not mean pesticides are used. It means you look for ways to changes conditions that favor the pest -- like eliminating harborage and food supply. Chemicals are a last resort.

I thought there was a time and place for pesticides. Used sparingly, and in the hands of a professional. But after reading the safety sheets ... I'd rather have the pests.

Feliz nuevo dia, my friend. gobug

gobug · #44 01/01/04, 09:10 AM

[QUOTE=j.r. guerra in s. tx.] Thanks for the web site. Lots of interesting information. If anyone wants one, live capture repeating rat traps are commercially available. gobug

gobug · #45 01/01/04, 09:16 AM

[QUOTE=myark]

Dry ice in a tunnel will make it difficult for a critter to breathe and it will surface or die...works for gophers...may work for rats too.

Paul, you have to stand for what you believe in and I applaud your efforts.

I've enjoyed all the responses and hope that those that are still living with their rats get things under control quickly. Many a plague was spread/caused by rats.
QUOTE]
I like the dry ice idea. Cardon dioxide is very quick and poisonous in their tunnels. A CO2 cartridge might also work. I don't know about the insulation. The moles may be more susceptable. gobug

myark · #46 01/01/04, 11:54 AM

Quote:

rats 24" long without mesuring the tail?

i think you got some other critter, I aint never sen a rat that big... your talking muskrat size, bigger than that!

Maybe something else, on the coast anything is possible. I looked up muskrat online (never seen one), and in the pictures, they are more furry, the tails much thicker, and the head and face fuller than what we saw.

I know it sounds like a tall tale....

The rat was moving very fast, so we couldn't measure it by standard methods, but it's body was half as long as my adult german shepherd, who let us know it was there. He growled at it, hackles up, but didn't try to attack it. It was the biggest, darkest gray rat I've ever seen, it's body looked just like a normal rat, only much bigger. We didn't know they could get that size! DH ran to get the gun, and as he left, it took off into the timber. All of the ones that the cats caught were much smaller, as were the ones that got into our house. This one was really dark gray and the smaller ones were lighter in color.

When we related the story to one of the townspeople, he didn't seem surprised and said it was probably a black wharf rat, that they get pretty big. ...However, I suppose he could have been kidding us, we were considered "flatlanders" to the native Oregon coast folk and our friends liked to have jokes at our expense.

In my lookup, I also checked out "black wharf rat", (don't ya just love the internet?) and didn't find anything fitting that description...I did find Wharf rat, although they are large, were not as big (12.5"-19" nose to tail) as what we encountered, and were different in color. At this point, I don't know what it was, but do know that it's body looked just like a rat, and it was dark gray. Maybe it was some other species/critter off one of the foreign ships in port (we lived in Coos Bay)...who knows for sure.

Whatever it was, I don't ever want to meet another one.

Here's part of what I found at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0331_030331_rats.html :

Quote:

Brown rat, house rat, barn rat, wharf rat, by any of these names the rat is the same common species: the Norway rat (Rattus norvegicus). The rodent, which grows from 12.5 to 19 inches (32 to 48 centimeters) long from nose to tail, is one of nature's most resourceful, adaptive creatures. Its diet is more varied than any other mammal, and its close relationship to humans means that Norway rats have managed to appear most everywhere that people do—whether we like it or not.

The average rat can wriggle through a hole the size of a quarter, scale a brick wall, tread water for several days, gnaw through lead pipes and cinder blocks, survive a five-story fall, survive being flushed down a toilet—and even enter a building through the same route.

farther in the text:

Quote:

"They are so adaptive, so intelligent, so successful and physically capable…that it would not surprise me if they show up in a place where you'd least expect a rat to show up," he explained. "I have the greatest respect for this rodent's resourcefulness, and [its] capabilities scare the **** out of me."

Yup, me too!

As for another possible home remedy for rat problems that I had forgotten...

My Uncle used to hook up the car exhaust to the tunnel with a pipe and gas out gophers...they could destroy a garden in a night or two. Not sure about the hazzard to the environment, though, and it was only a temporary fix.

Sounds like you might also want to keep the commode lid down and check before being seated!

myark · #47 01/01/04, 12:15 PM

More about rats:

http://www.pestproducts.com/rodents.htm#RAT%20ELIMINATION

http://www.ci.sf.ca.us/sfenvironment/aboutus/toxics/ipm/rats_mice.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/documentaries/stories/s603439.htm

comfortablynumb · #48 01/01/04, 01:04 PM

are you sure your not seeing an otter? river otters are about that size. we had one pop out and run acoss some rocks and it scared the lady I was with half to death she swore it was a giant rat. when it came back out I saw it was a small otter.
you need to catch or shoot one of the big uns and take it to the game warden to see what kind of "rat" it is, you may have a big one off a ship like an indian bandicoot or something,

myark · #49 01/01/04, 01:26 PM

Nope, not an otter (our local otters were sea otters), we saw many of those in the bay, they were bigger with shorter tails, this creature had a long bare tail about 3/4 it's body length. I don't think otters look anything like a rat, even when wet.

This was several years ago, so can't capture one of the big ones now. No internet or computer back then.

I can only suppose that, after some internet searching on rats, it was some critter off one of the ships.

Here's a .pdf file with practical advice about rodent biology, prevention, and control:

http://pested.unl.edu/catmans/public/chapter6.pdf

gobug · #50 01/03/04, 08:32 AM

[QUOTE=Paul Wheaton
I thought we already covered this ground.

I think the point you are trying to make is that if I drink my dish soap I could get really sick or even die. Or if rats ate my dish soap, something could eat the dead rat and I have toxins in my eco system. Is that not your point?

Paul,
We have beat this to death, without using a pesticide! I wish you well.
gobug