Opinions on Rat poison needed.

I agree with poppy, FarmerBrown. In addition, if you're a farmer and your vet is used to dealing with farmer critters, he or she likely knows all the signs of poisoning with rat stuff because I think they're pretty specific.

Make sure your little daring is staying hydrated - I'd guess that's the most impt thing right now, lots and lots of water.

I had a bit of a rat problem, once. Actually, the problem was my dad's, in his gravel floored garage. The rats had dug tunnels all throughout the garage floor, due to chicken and dog food being stored in the building. Well, I musta been in my early teens, they was still sellin' carbide over the counter without a federal license, hand print, and yer mother's maiden name......so I had a good supply. I closed off all the holes but two...the two that was furthest away from one another. Then I proceeded to lay in about a pound o' carbide in one of them two left over holes, after which I poured in about a gallon of water. Now you talk about a hiss..... I waited a couple minutes over by the far hole, the one that was still unmolested by myself, until the white gas started to come through. (carbide rocks and water make acetylene) I lit a match......and tossed it in that far hole.
Now I reckon it were about two weeks before my ears was back to normal.
The roar was turnin' more into a moan. My eyes started to come unswelled and some of the char was starting to fall off my skin. There were still a few rocks embedded in me in very uncomfortable places and I was one big bruise.
The garage was never the same. It kinda had that grenade-went-off-in-a-shoebox-look. We never had no more rats....at Dad's.
Any questions ?

Swampdweller

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This lemming ain't jumpin'.

I've finally quit giggling Swamp Thing! GREAT story!

Me, I never had much liking for rat poisons since they fed that stuff to my dad after they replumbed his heart. Ended up killing him..the warfarin by another name.

The other factor for me was I liked to stay away from anything and everything that could injure the "organic" label. And some say I just have a mean streak.

So my solution to the rodent invasions turned out to be a little more fun. I set up a 50 gal drum with no top. Stretched heavy paper over it and cut an X in the top. Glued on some walnuts, some cracked to provide more aroma. Set up a board for easy access for the critters and filled the barrell about 1/4 full of water.

Rats loved the walnuts and came for them in droves, fell through the cut paper and went for a swim...their last long swim. At times I would go peek and watch them hugging each other and pushing each other under trying to get out.

A little diesel on the top of the water made the fun a little shorter, but no less sure. Never did drop a match...mama would have been after me for sure!

bearkiller

Our three year old dog went blind last year. The vet said he musta eaten something that had eaten rat poison, or found some old rat poison.

I'd rather have the rats than introduce a poison like that on the farm.

We currently have three farm dogs and three cats. I've never seen a rat here, but I would think that if one showed up, the dogs and cats would take care of it.

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Farmer Brown, it totally depends on the specific rat poison. Different poisons have very different effects. If you used poison, get the label and call the vet. One of the problems with poison from "rat poison" is that the symptons are often misdiagnosed. If the vet knows the name and epa number of the product (s)he will have a better chance of helping the cat. gobug

Paul,
Rats carry and transmit disease to humans. I had a customer with 80 guard dogs, and about 1000 rats. It took awhile, but we got rid of the rats and didn't lose a single dog. You cannot live in a healthy environment and share it with rats. There are many ways to solve the problem and poison is just one. gobug

No doubt that rats are not a good thing to have around. But I would try dogs, cats, snakes, traps and almost anything else to get rid of them. I would move away before trying any poisons. Some people are comfortable using poison. I'm not one of them.

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Paul,
Everything is made of chemicals and everything is poison. "Non-toxic" is an oximoron. Check the labels on "non-toxic" products and you'll see directions to see a doctor if you swallow it or get it in your eye. The critical factors are 1) how sensitive are you to the chemical, 2) how concentrated is it, 3) how are you exposed. The old glow-in-the-dark watch hands were painted with Radium. Radium is one of the most toxic substances known to man. Since it was very dilute, and contained in a case, there was no real exposure. So the risk was low. All of the commercial rat poisons you can buy have to be eaten to affect you. So don't eat dead rats or rat poisons. You don't drink diesel oil. Think about it. The rats died in the water. Read some of the postings again. People use diesel fuel, and all manner of homemade concoctions to kill. That means all the products used are TOXIC. To place a greater danger on a product just because it is labeled a "rat poison" is illogical. The rat poisons may actually be safer to use than some of the home remedies above. Since the home remedies are not labeled or tested, the greater risk could be the home remedy. Regardless of the bunglings of the EPA, they have forced the chemical industry to prove efficacy, and label the products accurately for safe use. This has changed the whole industry. But surveys show most people, like yourself, still have a mindset from the 60's regarding pesticides. The government's definition of a pesticide is anything sold as a pesticide. Skin-so-soft has a cult image as a non-toxic mosquito repellent. Since it is not sold as a mosquito repellent it DOES NOT get tested as a pesticide. So there is NO basis for comparison. Nevertheless, I respect your right to not use such a product. There are many other choices.
gobug

Bearkiller.....I'm going to put your idea into action. I'd uhhh, suggest that you don't try mine.

Swampdweller

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This lemming ain't jumpin'.

Have not tried this, but heard that it works. Cut up a natural sponge--the kind you buy in the paint or bath dept--not the cellulose types. Fry the pieces in bacon fat. The pieces shrink up and absorb the fat. The rodent eats the bacon smelling sponge bits. In the stomach the sponge returns to its original size. If the rat or mouse has been sufficiently greedy it will bloat up and die. :haha:

Eons ago when we were young, my brother tried ridding the chicken house of rats with his .22. He hit one and killed it. Thing looked bigger than a squirrel. He missed the next one, and the walls of the chicken house were cement. Ka-zing. After that he went hunting outside.

Thank you ALL for all the input. I have alot to think about. I can not shoot the buggers as my farm is too colose to city limits and I'd catch serious trouble.
There are ALOT of rats as the last lease holders were slobs and there are piles of this that and the other everywhere
We are busting our humps cleaning up the joint and are plugging up and wrecking any tunnels we find. All of our feed is in closed buckets and the only other food I can see is grass/weeds. I see them mostly around the barn which has a cement floor and I have it seperated into 4 chicken pens. I have stopped free feeding and dont put any of the vegi's inside. There were pigs kept on the property before I got it and they say rats love pigs.
Apparantly the Island I live on ,has a huge rat problem so I don't think I'm alone.
Thanks again and keep em' coming.
corry

This could be the anorexic montra.

Clearly, we eat food. Every day. And these are not poisons.

The thing that is important to me is health. I think that there are solutions out there that will provide a quick, cheap, short term fix but at the expense of my health. If I'm sensitive to certain toxins, I might notice it right away. If not, my health problems could show up later as cancer, retardation or some other ailment. Maybe repeated use will get it to show up faster.

If I bring a bucket of rat poison onto my farm, it doesn't leave my farm. It becomes part of my localized eco system. It is possible, as you have pointed out, that the amount of toxin that I interact with is so small, that I probably won't notice any ill effects. However, my customers buy my products because they are sensitive to chemicals. What if a rat dies where a pig can get at it and the customer gets sick eating some pork chops. Or if a chicken pecks at the dead body and my customer gets sick on my eggs.

I like the sponge and fat thing. Sounds nice and organic to me. If a pig or chicken eats the dead rat, no harm done. Or if a dog or cat or magpie eats the dead rat, no harm done. If worms eat the dead rat, no harm done.

Yes, I have diesel fuel on the farm. And I try to be careful to never spill any of it and keep it properly contained. I do not use it to start fires or for any other odd things. If rats ate it, then yes, it would be introducing a toxin into the farm that I don't want. And because of that, I've been considering biodiesel.

A lot of these poisons that don't kill-you-right-away-and-are-therefore-considered-to-be-safe, an accumulate. In the water, the air, the soil and in the bodies of animals and us. Look at agent orange. It was thought to be safe when they were using it. Look at smoking.

So a modern rat poison is considered safe to be sold on the super market shelf. Not for me. Let other people expose themselves to it. But not me. Big rats are for dogs. Small rats are for cats. I'll bring in snakes if I gotta. I'll try traps and the sponge thing. I might even fire up google and find all sorts of weird things to try. I'll get containers for all my food and hire somebody to help the place be freaky-sterile-clean, but I'll never buy rat poison.

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Paul, i respect your views, but many things that are poisons are used for other purposes. Warfarin in rat poison is the same as coumadin used to thin the blood for people with heart and other problems. So, does that make it environmentally destructive too? It's good to be responsible, but it can be taken to extreme.

Just because smaller amounts of a toxin make it less toxic is not a reason for me to then use the toxin to poison something.

Granted, there are no absolutes. But I think the levels of toxicity that most people are comfortable with is way, way higher than what I am comfortable with. I choose to reduce the level of toxins on my farm to probably something like 100 times less than the average farm. Maybe even 1000 times less than the average farm. Some day I may get it down to 10,000 times less than the average farm.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one on this forum that seeks a less toxic life.

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sieze this opertunity.... get a 22 revolver, long barrle, and a 16 oz plastic pop bottle. duct tape the pop bottle, neck on the muzzle to the pistol, and cut an X in the bottom of the bottle (important).
now, but some high power rat shot cartidges or some 22 subsonic shorts and load up, paint the pop bottle flat black for effect.
step 2... you need a very very spiffy suit, and really nice shoes. get a nice haircut, splash on some canoe cologne.
slick down your hair and get a pack of icky eurotrash ciggarettes, preferibly those clove flavored type.
now.... your no longer farmer bob, trying to kill rats; your secret agent 006 3/4, on a mission for the queen. The rats are evil agents of a forgien government hell bent on whatever nerdowell rats from forgien countries are hell bent on doing to subvert the crown....
spred out some food on the barn... sit at a makeshift bar, have a martini (shaken, not stirred). Imagine the rats are playing blackjack at the next table, and dont do anything.. after a few days they will ignore you. talk to em so they get used to your voice and will pause when you speak tot hem as the run by... this is a vital step!
now....
as you walk about the casino, er barnyard, when you see a rat, in your best sean connery voice say "dont move ratski, I'm on to you" as the rat pauses, as he has become acustomed to do, he is acting just like a villan in a bond movie.. they always pause and wait a sec or 2 so bond can shoot them.
as the rat begins to trun away whip out your silenced PPK and shoot the lil ratski, right there in the casino...
if he has a few of his cohorts with him popthem also, before they jump you!
for a chage you can go sneeking into the secret hideout of the rat mastermind ratatatatov, and when you find him, take out your silenced PPK and in the name of HRH the queen whack em, and all the henchmen that are with him.
NOTE; do not, i repeat, do not make out with the evil villans girlfriend! they too are rats and will most likely bite. Now if you can get your wife/GF to play with you she can play the part of the villain girlfriend and you can pretend the hayloft is the villians bedroom... and we all know what bond does inthe villians bedroom with his woman!
it is usefull to have an nolder family member to play the role of Q, and help you assemble your various spy gadgets for your mission.

Life is pretty short, if you dont stop every now abd then and enjoy it, it'll pass ya right by.

this message will self destruct in 10 seconds.... tic tic tic tic tic

Paul, you wrote,
"Clearly, we eat food. Every day. And these are not poisons."

Do you think organic farmers don't use pesticides? Of course they do. They are just approved pesticides.

What about salt? (lets just say its not a food)

Clever pesticide makers have taken food additives and made them into pesticide products that contain no pesticides! By law, food cannot contain pesticide, so if we make a pesticide from a food additive, it cannot be a pesticide!! So now we have a wasp spray with 9% mint oil. Of course, since it is food it must be non-toxic. 9% mint oil could take you out just like pepper spray -- hey, ain't pepper food? Then look at all the people who are allergic to this food or that. Aren't peanuts poison to those allergic. My wife's allergic to most soaps.

As for rodenticides building up on your land, they don't sell products like that anymore. You are still in the 60's. You have more poisonous products under your kitchen sink than I carry in my service truck.

In your goal to lessen the toxins, I salute you. I just suggest you resort to science instead popular myth. Don't take my word. Ask for safety data sheets for all the chemicals you use. Prepare yourself with knowledge, not superstition.
gobug

Do you think organic farmers don't use pesticides? Of course they do. They are just approved pesticides.


I know a fair amount about organic farming and I know that they use things that I don't use.

Again, just because somebody else uses pesticides doesn't mean that I will, or should.

By law, food cannot contain pesticide

Are you sure? I think you will find that you are mistaken. I've worked driving combine and driving wheat truck. I've seen what they put in with the wheat. Food can contain pesticides, which is why my customers buy from me. My customers are ultra sensitive to it and my food does not contain pesticides.

As for rodenticides building up on your land, they don't sell products like that anymore. You are still in the 60's. You have more poisonous products under your kitchen sink than I carry in my service truck.

Are you sure about that? You don't even know what I have under my sink. We stick to pretty organic stuff and we use it quite sparingly.

I just suggest you resort to science instead popular myth.

Back atchya buddy.

Popular myth is that the meat you buy in the grocery store is safe. But the truth is that steer ate the herbicide treated grass and the insecticide treated grain. The toxins were stored in the beef fat. The consumer eats the toxins. The toxins build up and cause cancer. This is what started the whole thing about "red meat causes cancer". It isn't the red meat. It the toxins fed to the animal.

Popular myth is that the bread you buy in the grocery store is safe. I have seen then dumping insecticides into the grain as they put it into the elevator. I asked "what's that?" and the guy said "kills what tries to eat the wheat". Hmmm, people are eventually gonna try to eat that wheat. Would they wash it? No, they gotta keep it dry in order to grind it.

Don't take my word. Ask for safety data sheets for all the chemicals you use.

I have. It was required reading for the master gardening class I took. That was the scariest stuff I've ever read. I'm surprised they are allowed to sell it to the general public. The relly funny thing is that that information is required by law to be provided with the product. But I never see it with the product. One time I even asked and got a lot of run around. I can't help but think that if they provided that with the product, like they are supposed to, they would sell only a tenth of what they do sell.

I would think a professional would want to emphasize that they should carry that information with the product. It would make it clear that only professionals should be allowed to work with it. Way too many people don't know what they are doing and do it wrong. Thus making the world a more toxic place for all the rest of us.

Before reading those safety sheets, I was more of an IPM person. I thought there was a time and place for pesticides. Used sparingly, and in the hands of a professional. But after reading the safety sheets ... I'd rather have the pests.

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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I was referred to this website for a source of low tech rat traps.


http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html

It has a ton of other information as well - enjoy and pick out what you can.

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Heres a fence charger powered rat trap.

http://www.farmshow.com/issues/27/06/270605.asp

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Interesting thread!

We lived for five years with a rat invasion in the attic of a rental house, did everything we could to destroy as many as we could...except poison them. The cats did a great job with the little ones, these were huge warf rats, but even our german shepherd wouldn't go for the big ones. One we saw was two feet long, without adding the tail length! The apartment complexes on either side fed them well from the dumpsters, and they slept/played/bred at our house. There were many nights that I lay awake wondering if they were gnawing in or out. Only two small ones ever made it inside and were swiftly dealt with. Crowbar works wonders! We moved out as soon as finances permitted.

To the matter at hand...if they are using tunnels, stuff a good sized chunk of fiberglass insulation in the run...it will make a mole come to the surface and flop for a bit, then it dies. Dad discovered this after a major tornado ripped up a portion of a neighboring town and the winds deposited a lot of debris. He got tired of running it to the garbage and stuffed a chunk in a moles hole.... Please, if you try this, mark the spot and dig the fluff back up when the problem is taken care of.

Dry ice in a tunnel will make it difficult for a critter to breathe and it will surface or die...works for gophers...may work for rats too.

Comfortablynumb, me thinks cabin fever has set in...at least you're enjoying it!

Paul, you have to stand for what you believe in and I applaud your efforts.

I've enjoyed all the responses and hope that those that are still living with their rats get things under control quickly. Many a plague was spread/caused by rats.


Good luck!

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MyArk