Fluorescent light bulbs are not what they advertise

Haven't had any problems with incandescents burning out rapidly. Of course they don't last as long as CFLs, but they seem to last a reasonable time for me. With the thirty or so that I have, typical use, I probably change one every few months. I only started using CFLs for energy savings, but I'm rethinking that. As for the flicker, it isn't noticeable to the human eye, but it appears in the video posted by someone above.

The best way to get a long lasting incandescent, is to buy a European light bulb. They are rated for 240V and will be used as 120V. That will make them last 20 times their rated lifespan.

So what brand do you use? Would be lot more usefull in determining lifespan to track one or two bulbs that get daily use. Bulbs used once in blue moon will last long time.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

Where exactly do you buy European light bulbs in the USA? Dont think my Walmart carries them..... And I have no idea whether they have same screw in base as USA incandescents.

And you would have to find some very high watt bulbs or use multiple bulb fixture to do this cause running half voltage would mean you get half the light output. Could do simular with USA bulb if you run it on a dimmer at half way setting.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

Add me to the CFL Hate Club. The lights aren't as bright, contain mercury, and last a couple months instead of the advertised years. If CFL's are the only option we are given in a few years, then I will be buying bulbs on the black market.

No particular brand. I just buy whatever's cheapest, maybe once a year or so. Some of them are rarely used and last years, but I do have some that are turned on and off multiple times per day, and some used for 6-10 hours per day. It hasn't been a problem for me, so I don't bother to keep track of exactly how long they last. The one in my garage was burning out every couple weeks until I fixed the contact; now that problem is solved. I am looking to go completely off-grid eventually, so I'm more interested in energy conservation than convenience. But like Paul says in the article, there are much bigger ways to conserve energy than in lighting.

I used to work as a sales rep for phillips. So I got the training and product guides. The incandescent bulbs were among the longest lasting on the market, but not nearly as long lived as the fluorescent bulbs. Some of the incandscents were over $200 each, but those were not home style. The plant lights were almost entirely fluorescent. I visited customers on a routine basis and learned from their experience how often the extensive variety of bulbs were replaced.

Regarding the mercury: todays trash yards do not allow the trash to come in contact or leach into the ground. Hence the worry about CFL's polluting our environment is not well founded in today's world. At least you don't need a transformer to use them, so the noise from the larger bulbs is gone.

Regarding the light output: there are CFL's as high as 150 watts (I don't know the actual lumen output).

Regarding using incandescents to keep the chicken house warm: that may be one way to salvage some of the normally wasted energy put into the bulb, but it cannot be the most efficient, unless your chickens like to read at night.

LED's can be made to be very specific wave lengths, whereas either incandescent or fluorescent cannot be so tightly made. Daylight LED's are not needed because, plants only use certain wavelengths of lights. So a daylight fluorescent plantlight is not only expensive, but not the same as real daylight for the plant. I used to replace my fluorescent bulbs @$10 each every 2 years. The LED plant lights may last 10 years (I will see). I like them in combination, so I will continue to use both, just fewer fluorescent fixtures.

Now this is an INTERESTING thread, and I think I even have something of value to add, but coming from a COMPLETELY different angle!

My angle is indoor and greenhouse gardening, as well as the amount and intensity of light needed to get tomatoes and squash to flower and fruit in January. I am VERY familiar with the KINDS of lamps needed to provide this kind of light intensity.

(Note: A light meter will cost you about $15-$25, and can be gotten at any hydroponics supply store, and online. They are not an expensive item like, say, my $125 dissolved solids meter, or my $75 pH meter...)

Here is a nice list of the lamp and how many lumens per watt you will get, started from the least to the most:

Incandescent: 18 lumens per watt
Halogen: 22 lumens per watt
Mercury vapor: 61 lumens per watt
CFL : 70 lumens per watt
T8 Fluorescent tube: 100 lumens per watt
Metal Halide: 115 lumens per watt
High Pressure Sodium: 140 lumens per watt

However, other things you are not taking into account is the Inverse Square Law of light density.

What that is, simply, is that the further away from the source of the light a point is, the more diffuse, and therefore the less bright, the light is. This is true for ANY lamp. The way this works is:

Light Intensity = light output of lamp (in lumens) / distance²
A regular light bulb, lets say a CFL to make the math easy...at 10 watts:

1 ft. away from the bulb, each point the light reaches is receiving 700 lumens.
2 ft. away from the bulb, each point the light reaches is receiving 175 lumens.
3 ft. away from the bulb, each point the light reaches is receiving 78 lumens.
4 ft. away from the bulb, each point the light reaches is receiving 44 lumens... and so on.

However, further away from the bulb, the light is spreading *farther*. Think of it kinda like a cup of milk...there is only one cup of it, and if you drop it on the floor from a foot away, that milk will likely cover a small area in a puddle. But if you drop it from a 4 ft ladder, the same cup of milk might be splattered, thinly, over the whole room. Light works in the same way.

ALL lamps, Incandescents, CFLs, HP Sodiums, Metal Halides, etc., etc., lose intensity with age. The $300 HP Sodium lamp that is in the street light outside of your house will likely put out 5000 lumens at 3 ft when it is first put in. However, within 5 months, that output will be HALVED. Incandescents actually lose efficiency faster than CFLs, with the IL emitting half of its initial output at 4 months, and the CFL taking 7 months to reach its half-light.

However, the difference is often not as noticeable due to color spectrum. With a CFL, due to the fact that the color spectrum (Kelvin Temp) is from the coating on the glass of the bulb, the color spectrum does NOT change as the lamp loses power and efficiency. There will be JUST as much, say, blue in the spectrum as when the lamp was new, it will just be a *less intense* blue.

Incandescents, however, have a light spectrum that depends upon how hot the filament burns, as the bulbs are often clear. Therefore, as the lamp loses power and efficiency, it is putting off less blue and violet light, and more yellow and red light...making it LOOK like it the brightness and intensity of the light is unchanging. Your eyes know the difference even if you do not. They will strain more to read as your IL loses efficiency as the yellow/orange/red light is harder on our eyes than the yellow/green/blue light.

~smiles~ CFLs are just more honest about losing intensity than ILs. With a CFL, it looks dimmer. A IL looks just as bright, but the quality of the light has changed.

There is also the effect of coverage and placement. 3 600W lamps will deliver more light intensity to a 10x10 area than 2 1000W lamps, even though the latter puts out more light. This is because the three lamps can be placed so as to overlap light waves better than can two lamps.

I, too, am excited about the possibility of LEDs, and look forward to the technology becoming more cost efficient in producing them. Then again, what I am NOT waiting for is for the LEDs to become JUST as cheap as a CFL is now. LEDs put out more light per watt, of a better intensity, is longer lasting, and doesn't have the "half-light" of the commonly available types of lamps today. Since the quality and longevity are higher, I will not be unhappy spending, say, $10 a lamp instead of the $0.97 per lamp that I do now.

Anyway, Paul, basically, your article lacks science. ~smiles warmly~ Read up on any articles of light applications for growing plants (and learn more about CCT and CRI than you ever wanted to know, and why these things are important!) and you will learn a LOT about efficiency and money saving tips.

~grinz~ And also the trade-offs. With seedlings and plants that are eaten in a vegetative state, rather than a flowering or fruiting state (spinach verses squash or tomatoes), I will supplement light with CFLs rather than with metal halides or HP sodiums, even though the CFLs are not as efficient in converting watts to light.

Why? Because any plant in its vegetative state requires less light intensity than a flowering or fruiting plant...and while the conversion of watts to light isn't as good, 12 CFL bulbs will cost me $10 at Home Depot....while ONE HP Sodium bulb of approximately the same wattage will cost me over $100. I prefer to save my expensive, not-so-easy-to-come-by HP lamps for when I have plants that REQUIRE intense lighting and go with cheap, not-so-efficient lamps when the need is not so great.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

very nice, CaliannG. thanks.

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this message has probably been edited to correct typos, spelling errors and to improve grammar...

"All that is gold does not glitter..."

I forgot to add that in regular, working sockets, I have never heard of a CFL bulb going out in a couple of months.

HOWEVER, CFLs *are* more sensitive to electrical problems than ILs, which are more forgiving of faulty wiring, bad sockets, and loose grounds.

If you have a socket that is burning out CFLs every month or two, get your electrician out to check that socket and the circuit. Seriously. If something in your electrical system is burning out CFLs, you just MIGHT want to get it taken care of before it burns down your house. If your whole house is burning out CFLs, you REALLY need to look at your wiring. Something is *seriously* wrong.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I have had CFL fail after only a few months, on several occasions. Some of ther replacments have been there for several years.

CFLs went through their "cheap phase" a couple of years a ago, IMO. They knew that people would not catch on, paying $3.50 for a light bulb, so bulbs were outsourced hastily, ending with some quality control issues. Over time these mfg problems have been corrected, so a $1.25 China made bulb may now last for years.

My wiring is practically new so that isn't the problem. I have never had a problem with incandescents. On the other hand, my CFLs last months. Last night another one started flickering and is on the verge of dying.

Once the CFLs go, I switch out them out with incandescents. Again, once they are switched back to the incandescents there isn't a problem.

Until June of this year, when I moved back to Texas, I was growing professionally.

I was using *hundreds* of CFLs. Not the 10 or 20 that a person might use to keep the lights in a house or garage going, but HUNDREDS....going 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, keeping thousands of seeds and small plants happy and healthy.

Not a SINGLE, no, not even one, CFL EVER lasted a full year in my growing environment, with the 65-75% humidity, 85+ degree temperatures, and so many other less-than-ideal-for-lamps accidents and circumstances.

However, not one of them lasted *less than* four months either unless there was a problem with the socket, the wiring, or other electrical component outside of the lamp itself.

(Note: when I was away for a vacation in Florida, my sister thought she would be helpful in my greenhouse, and when a few of the CFL's went out, she replaced them with ILs, thinking they would be just as good. *Not a single one of the ILs lasted past three days after I got back in the conditions of my operation.* (That would have been a total of 18 days for the longest lasting IL) ILs will handle discrepancies in wiring, sockets and electrical current, but are not so great at handling the harsh, mainly tropical, environment of my operation.)

If you are burning out CFLs, but not Incandescents, then there is something wrong with your electrical system. I don't care HOW new it is. I don't care if it was just completely replaced yesterday by the Guru of All Things Electrical, get it checked.

Even the absolute cheapest and poorly made of CFLs should not be burning out every 2 months all over your house. Get your wiring and electrical system checked for what is causing the problem before your house burns down.

Across the street from me, in the middle of a cattle pasture, is an OLD house. It was built in the 1910's. It does not have a bathroom, but the old outhouse behind it kinda-sorta is still standing. The last time anyone lived in it, according to the mail left on the old stove, was in 1948. The roof is caved in on most of the house. The land owners used it for a while to store hay in, so there is straw and rodent droppings everywhere. ALL of the windows are either broken or have fallen out.

I asked the land owner about using the shed next to it for sheep once, and pondered about light. He said light wasn't a problem, and got a light bulb (IL) from his house, meandered over fallen beams into the kitchen area of this old house and screwed that lamp into the bare, hanging socket that was hanging from the kitchen ceiling.

Then he worked his way out, went over to the electrical pole and flipped the breaker there. Sure enough, that kitchen was lit up like a Christmas tree and the light shined through the fallen-out window frame and right into that old shed.

The wiring, technically, WORKED....but would you TRUST it?

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

No offense, but if my house burns down then all of my friends' and coworkers' homes are going to burn down too. I have discussed the issue many times with other people when they bring up their problems with CFLs.

I have had CFL last just a month or two in a couple of fixtures in two different homes. After that I gave up on them.

And as mentioned before we have lost 4 (and have 2 I don't think are going to last another month) of 16 CFL in my church in less than 6 months. These are in fixtures which were installed less than 2 years ago in a building which is less than 5 y.o. Before the CFL we'd lose maybe one bulb in that time frame.

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Remember, when seconds count. . .
the police are just MINUTES away!

Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. . .Davy Crockett

I'm sorry, I just can't understand either of you.

If CFL's have been such a problem for you (and also, everyone you know), then why haven't any of you documented this problem and called the companies on it?

And if you haven't actually DOCUMENTED it, how can you be sure there is a problem? My mother just had me change one of her light bulbs...and she SWEARS it has only been in there for a month, those cheap Chinese made things! She'll never buy THAT brand again...

But I know for a fact that light bulb had been there since the 4th of July before last, because I was here on vacation and I was the one who changed it for her.

And I can't really fault my mother for her faulty memory, either, because my husband swears he JUST changed that fluorescent tube in the barn for me just 3 weeks ago! (Ummm, I bought the fixture with the tubes already in it a year ago, FINALLY got it up in the barn 2 months ago and this is the first tube to go out. Not that I am complaining, the tube made it through a year in storage and a really bumpy move and still lit up for me when I hung it.)

I can point to my numbers and know they are true, because they were all a part of my records of operating costs. I know JUST how many lamps went out, how long they had lasted, what their lumen output was when went out, etc., etc.

Run your own experiments. DOCUMENT different brands, watts, usages, dimness, etc. What will it cost you? $15 for a light meter so you can prove WHEN and by how much a lamp reduces output? And then $10 in light bulbs? $25 total and your sharpie marker to date each lamp as you screw it in.......

Which might actually convince me and some others if you actually have some *numbers* and *evidence* of your beliefs. Because otherwise it just sounds like a bunch of folks complaining about how that new-fangled stuff ain't nearly as good as what we USED to use.

Science, as well as study after study after study says that CFLs are more efficient, give off more light per watt, last longer, and are safer than ILs. My own documentation has backed that up, with hundreds of lamps scattered in my wake. (*For the record, I prefer Phillips...but GE is okay)

But ya'll are expecting me to ignore all of that because your experience, which you have not documented, tells you they don't last as long....and you cannot tell me what brands you used, when you installed them, when they burned out, and what their light output was....only that they seemed dimmer to you and burned out before the rated 6000 hours of use?

Anyone have hard data? ANY hard data? Even if it is installing a CFL in one bedside lamp and an IL in the other and taking measurements and documentation on just those two light bulbs?

Or is it ALL "seems to", "appears to be", etc.?

I have science. I have documentation. Heck, I can even give you averages on all the dang CFLs I used over a 12 month period. I'm happy to give you data. I even did comparative experimentation on tube florescents and sodiums, as well as CFLs, not only light output, but how plants reacted to the light. I am happy to give ya'll the results of that. Because at the time, I wrote down EVERYTHING.

(If you also want data on hydroponic NFT verses aerponics, as well as nutrient solutions, pH ranges, and a horde of other data and findings related to greenhouse and indoor gardening, let me know, you can have all of THAT too. I recommend House and Garden lines of nutrients.)

If you have any hard data, *share it*.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

We used CFL's exclusively when we were off-grid for 7 years and we did have a number of them fail in an unreasonably short time. We saved the receipts from Home Depot and exchanged them for new ones with no problems, other than the inconvenience.
Nothing wrong with our electrical wiring...it was all installed and checked by my DH (an electrical engineer).

FWIW, I used to have data on CFLs - specifically the Phillips 18 watt reflector floods. I had two hallways in a location that contained about 20 highhats that had to remain on 24/7 for security and other reasons. I did a mass changeout, long before consumer CFLs became popular, with most of those lasting about 1.5 years, obviously in inverted position.

What I am more impressed with now is my converted little dollar store LED book light, where I took out the coin batteries, used a 68 ohm resistor, and thee Harbor Freight AA batteries, and have been using it as a book light for over a year on the same set of batteries, with an average use of a couple hours a night. The light is beginning to dim, so I plan on reducing the size of the current limiting resistor to see if I can extend battery life even further. I've NEVER had a flashlight or booklight last as long.

Lisa, I do have documentation of faulty CFLs failing, and having to replace those. The replacements worked as they were supposed to. That was when I went nearly exclusively to Phillips brand.

Having some fail and exchanging them is not what I meant. It is CFL after CFL *always* failing before the rated time period. Having some out of a batch fail is numbers...but if a person can't get a *single lamp* to the rated hours, even trying different brands, and ALL of them are just sub-standard?

Don't know about you, but if I had that happen to me time after time after time, I'd start thinking that maybe it's not my choice of light bulbs.

Harry, a YEAR? Wow, I am lucky to get a flashlight to last a MONTH....but I must admit that it is likely not any fault in the flashlights or their batteries...more that I am just hard on flashlights.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Wow. You have a lot of free time on your hands.

We all can make choices about how we live. You keep your CFLs and I will keep my incandescents. There. That was easy.