Won't get land before SHTF...what to do?

mightybooboo · #81 11/17/10, 09:09 AM

Buds wife just got word,20% pay cut for state workers.

Me,I think a declining SOL is indeed a slide into Pooh hits the fan,its also exactly what a depression is.

Being a homesteading board folks here likely have more options,but the day of living on a family farm are over. Sure,you can make some veggies,ie,WWII victory gardens...then again with 2 income families the reality for many who are barely keeping a roof over their heads now is disaster,and everyone cant dump current house for something smaller,where do all the smaller homes come from,and what happens to the larger ones? BLIGHT,we are seeing it too.

Im not accepting we have have to become a shell of our former selves,this is a political disaster and unfair trade is the biggest reason.

The Country was founded to run the Gov on TARIFFS on foreign goods.The reason was to protect our HIGH PAYING jobs from slave labors elsewhere.

With the income tax they now had a different way to finance gov and the protections Tariffs afforded us went out the window.

The era of citizen gov is very small time frame,the era of Kings and Serfs has been the system with the longest history,and what the Elite prefer.And they are getting their way while we look on like stunned deer in the headlights.

And so many accept this.

Yup,its going down.

And when you have more unemployed than tax paying workers with unemployment and those of gov welfare /retirement programs....well thats what we have.

I see too many still buy the mainstream media lies of 9.6% unemployment,TOTAL not in workforce of adults is around 50%!

Dwayne Barry · #82 11/17/10, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

everyone cant dump current house for something smaller,where do all the smaller homes come from,and what happens to the larger ones?

Wouldn't simple market economics dictate that if people can't sell big homes for high prices then the price of those homes will come down?

As long as people can afford to buy them at current market rates, then they won't.

Probably the days of a house being an investment are over and property/house prices we'll remain relatively stable.

mightybooboo · #83 11/17/10, 09:46 AM

306 million Americans
154 Million potential total Workforce

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42 million on food stamps...up from 32 million 18 months ago,up 58% in 3 years.

59 million on Social Security

4 million on welfare as of 2007,its up but I cant find numbers.

30 million Americans Unemployed,very hard to get numbers

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Thats serious trouble,especially when its financed with debt.

NamasteMama · #84 11/17/10, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry

You're describing the developing world not the developed world.

It's probably also worth adding that even in the developing world most people don't live as you describe. You're basically describing the worst-case scenarios that only generally characterize the poorest places on Earth (e.g. sub-Saharan African countries, Bangladesh) or the poorest elements of more affluent developing countries (e.g. countries in South America, Asia, etc.).

Just consider the basic infrastructure we have in the U.S. which those poorest places don't have. If some sort of currency collapse occurred it's much more likely we would become like eastern Europe or former Soviet Republics/Russia not sub-Saharan African countries. Not saying that wouldn't qualify as SHTF but still not the end of the world or anything.

Russia's collapse was no pretty picture. People are not as polite here as they were in Russia. let Hurricane Katrina serve as a sad reminder of what will happen in most cities around the USA when things collapse and food is hard to get or non-existant.

mightybooboo · #85 11/17/10, 09:59 AM

There is a large increase in empty houses but your point is valid,we are seeing deflation in our country,yet since we import so much and dollar has less value then imports inflate.

Food prices in many categories up quite a bit already.

Just have to watch Argentina to see how it will play here.They were first World and their SOL has crashed,along with the Crime Wave from starving formerly NICE folks.

You may be able to tolerate a decline in your SOL,for many its disaster.And since we arent islands unto ourselves,we will all pay in some form.

The Banking and housing collapse has harmed us all,no matter how responsible you were,you inherited the losses and consequences.

Sure,you have a job,and especially a good job,you are in good shape with your finances,can buy a new car,whatever.

Not everyone has that luxury and that isnt slowing despite what the Gov and fox news,etc want to tell you.You dont have 4.8 million less paying into SS in a year and not have job losses but a steady 9.6 unemployment that we are supposed to believe.

Im beating a dead horse,you believe propaganda or your own eyes and I hope your eyes are wide screen too.

My opinion this is a LOT more like 1929 than it is 1970 because Globalization has taken the jobs for good.

Ross Perot laid it out clearly with his simple charts,a giant sucking sound of jobs leaving,and of course he is right.The only way to compete with slave labor costs is have slave labor here.They have the same manufacturing technology we do,we have no advantage to offset those labor costs.

Yet we let our Politicians sell us out for cheap junk toys from overseas.Greed.

Yup,well done America.

NamasteMama · #86 11/17/10, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

306 million Americans
154 Million potential total Workforce

-----------------------
42 million on food stamps...up from 32 million 18 months ago,up 58% in 3 years.

59 million on Social Security

4 million on welfare as of 2007,its up but I cant find numbers.

30 million Americans Unemployed,very hard to get numbers

---------------------

Thats serious trouble,especially when its financed with debt.

For every one erson on unemployment I personally know 10 who are severelly underemployed or who do not qulify for unemployment, even after working.

NamasteMama · #87 11/17/10, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

There is a large increase in empty houses but your point is valid,we are seeing deflation in our country,yet since we import so much and dollar has less value than imports inflate.

Food prices in many categories up quite a bit already.

Just have to watch Argentina to see how it will play here.They were first World and their SOL has crashed,along with the Crime Wave from starving formerly NICE folks.

You may be able to tolerate a decline in your SOL,for many its disaster.And since we arent islands unto ourselves,we will all pay in some form.

The Banking and housing collapse has harmed us all,no matter how responsible you were,you inherited the losses and consequences.

Sure,you have a job,and especially a good job,you are in good shape with your finances,can buy a new car,whatever.

Not everyone has that luxury and that isnt slowing despite what the Gov and fox news,etc want to tell you.You dont have 4.8 million less paying into SS in a year and not have job losses but a steady 9.6 unemployment that we are supposed to believe.

Im beating a dead horse,you believe propaganda or your own eyes and I hope your eyes are wide screen too.

My opinion this is a LOT more like 1929 than it is 1970 because Globalization has taken the jobs for good.

I'm with you. I have spoken to many who lived in the Great Depression, ALL save one said they felt it was worse now than then.

mightybooboo · #88 11/17/10, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Dwayne....
Just consider the basic infrastructure we have in the U.S. which those poorest places don't have. If some sort of currency collapse occurred it's much more likely we would become like eastern Europe or former Soviet Republics/Russia not sub-Saharan African countries. Not saying that wouldn't qualify as SHTF but still not the end of the world or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamasteMama

Russia's collapse was no pretty picture. People are not as polite here as they were in Russia. let Hurricane Katrina serve as a sad reminder of what will happen in most cities around the USA when things collapse and food is hard to get or non-existant.

Disagree Dwayne,China has the infrastructure to take our jobs and Yes,I find living like a Chinese laborer or worse a Chinese peasant SHTF indeed.Nor do I want to live as an Eastern European either.Nor do I
want to live in Argentina with their brutal home invasions and rapes and murders.

Dwayne Barry · #89 11/17/10, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamasteMama

Russia's collapse was no pretty picture. People are not as polite here as they were in Russia. let Hurricane Katrina serve as a sad reminder of what will happen in most cities around the USA when things collapse and food is hard to get or non-existant.

Do you really think if an economic collapse occurs it would be like Katrina? In which there was a near total loss of infrastructure and forced migration essentially overnight.

mightybooboo · #90 11/17/10, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry

Do you really think if an economic collapse occurs it would be like Katrina? In which there was a near total loss of infrastructure and forced migration essentially overnight.

When the trucks stop delivering OVERNIGHT in 3 days its catastrophe.

More like Argentina,starving bands of desperate people who will kill you for a bite to eat. Thats what an economic upheaval gets you and Im not cheering it or pooh pooing it by any stretch the chaos that involves.

And we as a Country are Seriously Bankrupt,thats fact.

During the depression we had Farms and hobos could get a meal and move on.Now we dont have family Farms and instead we have Gangsters that kill because they like to.

Food stops,and how you buy it without money to the Countries we get it from,now more than half our food,SHTF becomes that much more dangerous.

Katrina shows how fast Law and Order breaks down.

And how quickly the Hitlers rise to power in an economic collapse,Ala Nazi Germany.

Finally,ALL FIAT CURRENCY'S COLLAPSE,ALWAYS.

Its a matter of time,I think the time is here now,or do we already forget the Imminent Collapse the Bankers promised if we didnt bail them out 2 years ago?

Dwayne Barry · #91 11/17/10, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

Yet we let our Politicians sell us out for cheap junk toys from overseas.Greed.

I'm not sure why blame the politicians unless you mean they didn't stop the corporations doing what they wanted to do?

It's till a catch-22, O.K. we don't ship jobs overseas then people must be willing to pay more for the products which are produced by higher paid U.S. workers, which also makes them less affordable as export goods.

I'm fine with that. I pay more for lots of things than I need to. Simple fact is it is ingrained in the American psyche that more is better and the best value is the cheapest option (think about many ads for whatever don't even mention the quality of the product or service, just that it's the cheapest). Can't see a massive swing in American consumer habits. With the downtown in the economy, the cheap option is even more appealing.

Dwayne Barry · #92 11/17/10, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

Disagree Dwayne,China has the infrastructure to take our jobs...

My point was that our infrastructure isn't going to disappear overnight not that it would allow us to out compete China.

Dwayne Barry · #93 11/17/10, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

When the trucks stop delivering OVERNIGHT in 3 days its catastrophe.

Why would this happen?

edcopp · #94 11/17/10, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquisimo

I have sadly determined that I simply won't be able to afford land before things start to get really bad here in America. I looked from the Sacramento area all the way to Douglas County, Oregon, and the price for land is about the same. Cheap land seems to either be in a desert or it's vertical.

So it's time for plan B. I'm thinking of finding a mobile home in a park somewhere cheap, like SW Oregon, and taking out the ornamental shrubs that people plant around their trailers and putting in some potatoes and peas and an apple tree and maybe have a shed with rabbits.

I've been looking at used mobiles online, some have quite a bit of property (relative to a MH park, of course) with them so I could do some small scale food growing. I would of course clear it with the park owner before moving in, but I would think that it wouldn't be a problem in a rural park. Does anybody do this? I know we have some people here who live in MH parks.

This is the best I can come up with. I don't have a steady job (self-employed when I do work) so I can't qualify for a loan on land, and I'd need one, it's just too much cash to amass reasonably. But I could get a mobile for a few thousand, and the MH parks around Roseburg, Oregon have really low rents. Any ideas?

Rent until you can afford to buy. You will be able to "afford" to buy when you have sufficient CASH in hand. Save your money (just like everybody else). You might speed things up for yourself if you stopped looking at the most expensive (overpriced) land on the planet.

mightybooboo · #95 11/17/10, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry

I'm not sure why blame the politicians unless you mean they didn't stop the corporations doing what they wanted to do?

It's till a catch-22, O.K. we don't ship jobs overseas then people must be willing to pay more for the products which are produced by higher paid U.S. workers, which also makes them less affordable as export goods.

I'm fine with that. I pay more for lots of things than I need to. Simple fact is it is ingrained in the American psyche that more is better and the best value is the cheapest option (think about many ads for whatever don't even mention the quality of the product or service, just that it's the cheapest). Can't see a massive swing in American consumer habits. With the downtown in the economy, the cheap option is even more appealing.

The politicians eliminated Tariffs.The Politicians instituted income tax leaving us vulnerable to under priced labor.Created Fed making the dollar just a piece of paper. The Politicians approved Nafta to break down import restrictions 'Because it will create Millions of jobs here',remember that?'

Finally we gave COMMUNIST China MOST FAVORED NATION trading status because 'IT WILL CREATE MILLIONS OF JOBS',remember that?

And what has happened to our jobs,they are GONE.Our currency,crushed.Our budgets,all debt.

I blame the politicians and the apathetic Americans and the American Education system,all responsible for our demise as the Greatest Country on Earth.From Worlds largest Creditor Nation to Worlds largest debtor,all thanks to our Politicians since 1913,took them 100 years and our freedom and wealth has been dismantled.

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Bush said it best though this isnt partisan,I blame em ALL,both parties...,but this is so close to the truth...

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.

- US President George W. Bush (August 5, 2004)

mightybooboo · #96 11/17/10, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry

Why would this happen?

It shows how fragile our system is,it might not be total disruption,when goods stop flowing to meet demands,its chaos.

Dwayne Barry · #97 11/17/10, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

It shows how fragile our system is,it might not be total disruption,when goods stop flowing to meet demands,its chaos.

I agree just-in-time delivery makes us and a good chunk of the world vulnerable, I was asking though regarding what sort of scenario you thought would lead to a widespread breakdown?

mightybooboo · #98 11/17/10, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwayne Barry

I agree just-in-time delivery makes us and a good chunk of the world vulnerable, I was asking though regarding what sort of scenario you thought would lead to a widespread breakdown?

Sheesh Dwayne,Economic Collapse.World Wide Depression.No jobs,starving masses.Add in a few good crop failures perhaps,could happen,did before.

Its all happened before,we are not only NOT immune,we are in the thick of it.And last time we had the strongest currency on Earth,and largest creditors,not largest debtor with toilet paper money.

Txrider · #99 11/17/10, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

Disagree Dwayne,China has the infrastructure to take our jobs and Yes,I find living like a Chinese laborer or worse a Chinese peasant SHTF indeed.Nor do I want to live as an Eastern European either.Nor do I
want to live in Argentina with their brutal home invasions and rapes and murders.

This is the same China whish is having huge problems with massive desertification taking out swaths of the country?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...s-annually.php

The same China with week long traffic jams with folks sleeping in their cars?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...989748704.html

That's some awesome infrastructure...

The reason we cannot out compete Chinese goods are really only 2.

1) They peg their currency value against the dollar to lock in an unfair trade advantage, and they don't allow the value to float against the dollar like other developed nations. It's dumping goods, not free trade nor fair trade.

2) Shipping is cheap, as energy prices get higher and higher it will cost more and more just to ship those goods across the world.

We can fix #1 by either forcing China to raise it's currency or impose a tariff on Chinese goods, or by printing enough money and devaluing the dollar to the point it breaks their economy.

The cost of shipping will rise naturally with the price of oil and make domestically produced goods cheaper. And again a fall in the value of the dollar makes shipping more expensive, especially as oil prices rise. It's a tax on global trade more or less.

When Oil spiked to $140 a barrel a lot folks offshoring as well as the Chinese got a bit of a wakeup call..

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...osts-oil_N.htm

Quote:

"Globalization is reversible," says Jeff Rubin, an analyst at CIBC World Markets in Toronto.

Well, maybe. No one predicts a wholesale return of manufacturing jobs to the United States. And there are other forces at work, including a weak dollar, which boosts exporters. But today's oil prices act like a tariff on global commerce, discouraging long-distance shipment of some components and finished goods, Rubin says. Shipping a standard 40-foot container from Shanghai to the U.S. East Coast in May cost about $8,000, vs. $3,000 eight years ago, when oil was around $20 a barrel.

If long-term trends push oil prices near $200, as some analysts expect, sending that shipping container halfway around the world would cost a staggering $15,000.

At such prices, the calculations that drove a doubling in global trade volume since 2000 and the establishment of far-flung supply networks might require rethinking. Orders might be placed with factories closer to home. Shuttered assembly lines could be given new life. And suddenly, the confident claims of globalization's cheerleaders that distance doesn't matter would ring hollow.

http://www.worldtrademag.com/CDA/Art...00000000520308

Quote:

Low cost country sourcing (LCCS) has become increasingly prevalent. But if fuel costs climb above $150, sourcing from within the U.S. or from Mexico will become attractive in categories where savings from LCCS were in the low-to-medium range.

When fuel was $30 a barrel, most companies obtained an 18% to 25% cost savings from China sourcing. They enjoyed those savings in return for increased complexity, longer lead times, and poor on-time delivery (e.g., 3 x lead times and 9% On-Time-Delivery on electronic components from China compared to 81% OTD from near-shore sourcing).

Freight costs from China were on average 20% of landed costs of goods, and fuel was on average 20% of freight costs. Consequently, a rise in fuel costs by 400%, from $30 to $150 a barrel, would translate to a 16% increase in the landed cost of goods (assuming the shipper passes on the entire cost increase). This rise will wipe out almost all the savings from LCCS in some categories. The recent lifting of some fuel subsidies by countries like China, India and Indonesia will make raw material and production costs in these countries go up, putting further pressure on the savings from sourcing.

Furthermore, hedging against exchange rate risks has to be integrated into the sourcing strategy. The burden of importing with rising fuel prices has been exacerbated by a decrease in the value of the U.S. dollar. Historically, an increase in oil prices is accompanied by an increase in the value of the USD. That makes imports cheaper—creating a natural hedge against rising transportation costs. Instead, oil prices increased almost six fold since 2002, while the dollar has slid against most major currencies in the same time period.

mightybooboo · #**100** 11/17/10, 12:22 PM

That Chinese shipping of endless goods is expanding at double digit rates.I'd say they have the infrastructure and the expansion to squash the World,and a slave labor force to run it.

You cannot deny their price of labor advantage of 10:1 or more.And take that out of the equation.Living in the Workers Barracks that make Dachau a look alike.Thats their lives in manufacturing.

Are they raping their Country,YES.

Are they taking our jobs,YES.

Is it a toilet for the majority of Chinese,YES!

Contrary to the pablum spewed by Diane Sawyer.
Or the propaganda fed Jane Fonda in VN,or the propaganda fed the Red Cross about the concentration camps in Nazi Germany.