Won't get land before SHTF...what to do?

Loquisimo, my gut feeling is if you can't find a way to make it in California, you won't be able to find a way to make it in another location.

The advantage of staying in place is that you already are accustomed to the weather and the growing seasons, and how things work in your local social circle. Move somewhere else and that makes you both a newbie and an outsider.

You say that land prices are too high in California! Just how are you looking for land? Via the internet? While I was conducting our initial search for land, what I discovered was land sold at auctions and on the internet was sold there because it had some kind of problem. Try finding an agricultural realtor in your area. Try going to you local ag supply store or grange, rather than looking for anything that a residential realtor would deal with. I did at first, and those people focused on land close to shopping and golf courses, URRRRRHHH!

You think that California is too dry for sustainable agriculture. Well, I've had my plants in the ground now for 4 years and they are doing fine thank you. If you think there is not enough water in California, think about how to get water rather than moving where there is more. What about rainwater collection? You could divert water to a 3000 gallon poly tank in the back yard. Cover it with a cheap metal garden shed if you want to keep it private. How about planting drought tolerant plants. Plant carob and jujube instead of apples and peaches. Learn how to cook cactus. I like it served as a green vegetable.

You'll be faced with challenges for something no matter where you go. The bottom line is figure a way to make it work where you are already located. You'll still be way ahead of 99% of the rest of the population!

We definitely know what you are going thru. We are in NY and have been looking for a long time. We have the funds but since the gas leasing thing our search really got derailed and confined to the more expensive parts of NY unfortunately. Darn gas leasing!!! Also unfortunately we have found that not many are selling land or properties with land that are decent. If it's falling down or marginal (or worse) land they are trying to sell it though LOL. We will just not buy marginal land, land full o'rocks, land on a western slope, etc., and cannot afford the 'good' land in this area. Heck, we've even tried to get others to go in on a larger parcel of land here and divide it up legally and all but generally they do not follow through. It's makes us sick to know that we may be trapped here in the city when TSHTF but we so does buying a property that was someone else's headache with poor land.

I say again, if anyone would seriously like to legally split a parcel of land in upstate NY (that is not in a gas leasing area!) please PM us.

Loquissimo, I grew up in California. I moved to the midwest while in my 20's, but I have OFTEN thought about how a quiet introvert like myself could have made it work.

1. To start with, I would have gotten my fishing license. I remember you like to drive; try driving to where you can fish. Yes, I know that a license costs and, since you have a struggling business and you said earlier you are also in school that you are fairly well broke. A fishing license is as good as a text book: get your license even if it does not have a trout stamp or whatever.

2. Secondly, I would ask about getting a plot in a community garden. There is probably a waiting list, so get on that. To find out who to talk to I would ask the secretary who answers the phone at city hall: there is an 80% chance that she knows who to talk to. The chamber of commerce secretarty might now also. As a computer person you know computers: as a people person they are good at knowing who takes care of what.

Did you know that you can raise 36 carrots in a single square foot? I have done it. You can get a LOT of food out of a small plot in a community garden!

3. Part of the reason that I wish to homestead is because I get a sense of security from the things that I can see and touch. I suspect that part of the reason *YOU* wish to homestead, as you seem to be the bookish type. Having your own veggies and fish might help.

I've been out of the govt. land management loop for a while. But.... you can get a mining claim. But you cannot live on it. That's not allowed. You can only use it for mining purposes. Pretty much every place you might get a mining claim on a placer deposit, you're going to need to post reclamation bonds (and if you don't >Catch 22< your not really serious about mining), have mitigation plans for water quality, holding ponds, and a very good lawyer (helps if your married to one) because you're going to have to file permits and fill out paperwork, showing that you've actually done X amount of exploration each year.

Don't plan on living on a placer claim, unless you have a persecution complex. As in you love pain, because it's the job of the BLM to protect it's land against 'squattors'.

Even if you "did" get to live on the land, you'd never OWN it. You'd pay taxes on it, but to own it you'd have to Patent it, and to do that, you'd have to actually prove that there is a mineral deposit on it and that you've got the infrastructure to produce it.

There are millions of mining claims all over the country. Claims. You don't just go out and find a nice site and claim it... you have to research the tract to see if there are other claims on it already. Most areas that can possibly have gold on it have long ago been 'claimed'.

But good luck! Really helps the situation if you like the book "Don Quixote".

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Actually, I've been combing through the MLS listings for every county from here to the middle of Oregon, and it seems that land is still getting cheaper here. And that's not ghetto parcels, but real nice stuff up in the foothills of the Sierra. The advantage to living in the foothills is that they get more rain than the valley floor, and even snow; rainwater collection would work up there. Another thing that would work above 1200 feet is solar power, due to lack of fog that permeates the valley in the winter.

I do have reasons for staying here, including that my psychiatrist is here, and he is really a brilliant guy, one of the top people in his field in Northern California. My parents are also here, and while they get on my nerves, they're still family. I explored moving elsewhere, and my mom gets all anxious when I suggest it. I kind of liked Fallon, Nevada, but the amount of bribes one has to pay to get habitable land is obscene. I don't know if they check Google Earth there for "illegal" habitation. I know they do in Oregon, which is why I probably don't want to move there. I am looking into seller financing, and several MLS listings for land here say that the seller is open to it.

My mom says no car or land until I pay off my debts to her, which is only fair. (My car broke down and I decided to sell it, since fixing it was costing too much. So I'm without a car.) She was paying on an old credit card relief loan, so I'm paying that now, since I don't have a car. And she wants it paid off before I do anything else. Once I start working again, I can make payments on that loan until it's paid off, then start looking. I just worry that there isn't much time left until SHTF.

http://www.landsofamerica.com/


.................Try using this search engine ! , fordy

The title of this thread seems to imply that you know when SHTF is going to happen or you are using it as an excuse to give up on your dream. Just an observation.

There are still a number of states where you can file a mining claim. It can be done in Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming.

You can file a placer claim for 20 acres or a lode claim for 160 acres (or a tunnel site, or even a mill site). For our purposes the 20 acre placer claim works best.

You can visit the BLM office in one of the mining claim sites to research areas that are available for claims, and to get more information on staking a claim or actually filing the claim. The claim will cost $189 to file, then $140 each year to maintain it. There is a small miner's waiver form available for less than 10 claims, which you can use to request to have the $140 yearly fee waived.

Once the claim is filed you have the exclusive right to work the claim for minerals (even though that may not be your intent), but not exclusive rights to the use of the land. However, you have the right to limit access on the property to protect your equipment. Visitors to the area are free to cross the land, but can be restricted from interfering with mining operations.

Technically you are limited to "camping" for a maximum of 14 days in any 30-day period, and 30 days during any year. However, you are allowed to be there to work the claim, and also have necessary security personnel to protect the equipment. If you move out there in an RV on the pretense that you have equipment to guard, no one will bother you. Remember, most of these locations are remote, so there's no one there to keep track.

You can't normally make permanent changes to the land without first getting a permit (that would include a septic system). If you do that they will probably require a bond to be posted to assure that you will return the land to its original condition when you leave. For that reason permanent structures are pretty much out. Plan to live in an RV, and plan to dump your black water in a proper sanitary dump from time to time.

But as an emergency living situation, the mining claim and travel trailer is an option.

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Could you elaborate on that? What impending doom do you see on your horizon?

Another question is in regard to your credit card debt. If things are so bad for you why are you paying it? After all, it's just unsecured debt. The worst they can do is ruin your credit, which is probably already taken a hit. Write them a cease communication demand letter and forget they exist.

Getting a little more personal here, your relationship with your family and psychiatrist concerns me a little. Are you young and just starting out, or are you dependent on your family and psychiatrist for some other reason? I'm wondering if relocating is a good idea for you.

By the way, Fallon, NV wouldn't be top on my list of places to move in northern Nevada. That's a military base town. The demand for housing is a constant because of that. You're better off farther east of Fallon, at least with respect to purchase price. By the way, there are Nevada counties that don't have building codes (Eureka, for example).

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That much is true, I only watered a few times this year...and only once after my plants were established. That alone made it low maintenance enough I was able to manage when my boss sent me back to school this summer.

HAH! I'm way too well insulated for that. My vacation to new mexico was manageable though. It would be hard to adjust to but worth it for the longer growing season?....we'll see.

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Loq, I have strong memories of the 70's.

There were riots in the streets.

A friend of mine was in her college class when a young man walked in with a machine gun on his shoulder. "Class is over", he said. The teacher never said a word: he picked up his papers and left. her college was shut down, for a while.

People were ALSO afraid of TEOTWAWKI, but the end never really came off. Instead, I watched while our society pulled itself up by the bootstraps.

It is possible that things will crash, but it is not a certainty. Personally I think that it will NOT crash! Though I am not really too sure, here. It is true that I have seen worse, but if there was a bad event as a trigger then it really could crash.

This house of cards will stay up UNLESS something else happens. I would not be worrying about a time line, though, because there is not one. There will either be a triggering event or there will not be.

No telling what he thinks might happen. He hasn't said.

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What I think might happen? Crash of the dollar. Entitlements being cut down to the point where everybody goes out and riots. Our economy is BADLY mismanaged, whether by accident or design I don't know, and an Argentina style crash is likely inevitable. When? Next few years is my guess.

The reason I am paying on this loan is because my mom unwisely took it out in her name, so it's her credit on the line. I wiped out the rest of my unsecured debt in bankruptcy, but not this, since it's in mom's name. Mom says she's learned her lesson. I certainly learned mine. But this debt needs to be paid, and mom won't file bankruptcy, even though she owes way too much money on other debts that have nothing to do with me. My mom is literally spending every last cent of her pension on debt service, even with me paying that loan, yet she refuses to file bankruptcy.

I don't think that's going to happen. I've given it a lot of thought, and I can make as strong of an argument for deflation as inflation. We're in for even tougher times than we've had so far but the steam has been knocked out of the economy now so it's not as volatile as it was two years ago.

I was very sure of economic doom being on it's way back in 2006. Accordingly, I bought two acres for cash 10 miles east of Elko, left Las Vegas, and build a cabin in the summer of 2007 with pocket money. Here is the cabin on the day I moved in (I just moved from a travel trailer to the house I had been building).

http://windowrock.com/house_600.jpg

I added a 5'x12' bathroom and put proper siding on the house the next summer. I lived there for three years, weathering the worst of the recession mortgage-free. But after 3 years I encountered a windfall that allowed me to buy a house in Las Vegas for cash, but that wasn't through planning. It was more through happenstance.

I could understand your being concerned about economic destruction 2, 3, or even 4 years ago, but the crisis has passed. We're on the long road of survival now, which may last 5 years or more. But without enough free capital to create a bubble the economic climate will remain stable. Plan for 5 more years of recession, but don't look for a SHTF scenario.

I understand. There isn't much you can do then except keep paying.

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OLF , No , No , No we don't want any more Californians to move here. It seems every year there are a few more and they keep trying to turn it into "Little California" I just wish they would all go back out there and take thier thoughts , ideas and laws with them.

Nevada , Couldn't agree with you more on the future and the ecomony.

Come to SW Michigan! I know of dozens of properties that are just sitting vacant here. And, after all that has already happened in Michigan, we're SHTF-less. It hit here already, so there are plenty of clean-up opportunities! We welcome SHTF-less folks....

geo

The Eastern Shore of Virginia is NEVER going to be overdeveloped, because it's at the end of a long (Delmarva) peninsula, and there's a $14 toll to cross the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel ($19 round trip, if you return in 24 hours). Excellent agricultural land. It's definitely a farming community. Fishing, hunting, boating year round, in the ocean and the Bay. Not a good economy for jobs off the farm, that's the downside. Look up Northampton and Accomack counties.

My mom just sold 30 acres of prime farm land with an historic farm house, electric and septic in good working order, gas furnace, needed cosmetic work but beautiful and sound, for $130k. Way too cheap in my opinion, but it's a buyers market here.

Loquisimo, it sounds like you might be suburban/urban bound for awhile for whatever reasons (doesn't matter to me why.) As a suburban "homesteader" myself, I've found many resources that those who can't move to larger agricultural lots. If you live in a year-round growing region, urbanhomestead.org shows just how independent you can be (heck, even good info for people who have limited growing seasons but the Dervaes live in a year-round growing area in SoCal.) GardenGirlTV.com is another excellent site, and there are a few HT members that do quite well on city-size lots.

As for the mobile home park aspect, I'd definitely check the community rules before making a decision. Another option would be a community garden. Depending on where you live or move to, some cities have community garden space available that could supplement what you grow on your own property.

I kind of understand your frustration. I'd love to be able to move to a more self-supportive piece of property, but have family and work obligations that keep me where I'm at. It doesn't matter how good the deal is, or how close we are to a SHTF scenario, I will NOT leave my family and so have chosen to work with what I CAN change given the situation I've chosen to remain in. Kudos to you for exploring options within your situation!

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I'll never be sorry I went through my SHTF shelter thing. I did what I believed I had to do, but I won't pretend that I wasn't living under conditions that most would find unsatisfactory.

• Very little electricity. I ran a 300 foot extension cord to the house next door. It provided enough power for a small (10 cf) fridge, laptop, and lights. You can forget the microwave & toaster. I gave a neighbor $25 a month for the hookup. He said he didn't notice the bill going up when I hooked-up, and didn't notice it going down when I left. We were both happy.
• No water service or well. I plumbed the house from a 300 gallon cistern, complete with a 40-gallon propane water heater. I had a kitchen sink, bathroom sink, and a cast iron tub with shower. I maintained water pressure with a 12-volt RV water pump I powered with solar cell charged deep-cycle batteries. I filled the cistern from a neighbor's hydrant with a 200 foot garden hose. He let me have all the water I needed in exchange for feeding his livestock while he was at work.
• No septic system. I used portable RV toilets. I had three 5.5 gallon tanks. Each tank lasted the two of us about a week, so we only needed to empty once every three weeks or so. We dumped the tanks at a gas station in town (free if you bought your gas there).
• No propane delivery. I had two 100 pound propane tanks and an RV propane regulator. I took them to town to fill. I never signed a contract for propane.
• No thermostat for heat at first. When I first moved-in I used a 25,000 btu wick-type kerosene heater. The problem was that it was always getting too hot or too cold, so I had to run up and down the stairs maybe 3 times a night to adjust the heater (I was a "human thermostat", so to speak). Before to many months passed I bought a propane heater at eBay that had a thermostat.

On the upside, I had trash pickup and high speed Internet on the homestead.

I now have confidence knowing that I can build my own home myself, and get by without the conventional amenities most of us take for granted. Heck, it seemed almost normal after 3 years.

But I'll tell you this; I look at what I have in Las Vegas very differently now. I've got electricity, natural gas, water, and sewer, as well as central air & heat. I'll never take those services for granted again. Life is good.

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So how much do you owe your mom? It sounds like you had a fairly inexpensive vehicle if it cost more to fix then it was worth? How much can you really afford to pay for land? You'll probably need a vehicle as well? Maybe you should concentrate on paying your mom off quickly then buy a vehicle then maybe look for some land to buy?