Veteran Homesteaders: I need your help--before its too late!

SFM in KY · #21 10/31/10, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craftnkids

It all looks good on paper, but we tend to our small 15 acre farm and could spend sun up to sun down doing all the things that need to be done!

Theoretically, if you had enough income to pay utilities (whatever they are), health insurance, vehicle maintenance and insurance and fuel plus clothing, etc. that you must buy ... then you could probably raise most of what you eat and again, theoretically, most of what your livestock eats.

I am the third generation of a ranching family and believe me, if you do not have additional "outside income" from a source other than what you raise on the acreage you have, one person, even a couple, can not do all of the necessary work.

You have ongoing repairs on everything, from any machinery you own and use to the fences, sheds, etc. Garden tilling, planting, weeding, watering, picking, canning takes hours ... not a once-a-week job. If you are raising your own hay and grain for livestock, many more hours.

Depending on where you are located, the biggest majority of this work must be done during the summer growing season. Most of the farm and ranch families I know work daylight to dark for most of the summer and depending on what livestock you raise, that can end up a 24-hour a day workday if you are foaling/calving/lambing.

And Mother Nature does not always cooperate. If you get a hailstorm and it takes out your garden ... or you get a week of rain just after you mow your hayfield ... the garden produce and the hay has to come from another source. With short growing seasons especially, you do not have the option of trying again, not that year ... or at least not that hay cutting.

piglady · #22 10/31/10, 08:51 AM

The cost of land, shelter, windmill (even if it really could fill your electric need), tools, transportation, tractor, implements, storage for hay/grain, source of water (well if you have no public source), insurance of all kinds as mentioned, taxes, etc. are all cost you incure the minute you step foot on the place. Unless you are independently wealthy, you'll have to earn or finace that to begin with. If you do have that to start with, then obviously you are ahead of the game. Otherwise, you better get a good job to pay for all of it. And, if you have a good job, you will have very litter time to take care of a place like that. Even if you do have everything paid for up front, you can never raise or build everthing you need, and trust me there are a lot of needs on a farm. Most of which happen in a snap with little warrning. You must ask yourself too if this really is the life you want. Sounds like you just want to live like a poor person that has nothing. I've been poor, it's not fun!! And to be poor while working your butt off using manual methods to grow and harvest animal feed just to have the rats eat it because you can't afford to store it properly, well, just doesn't sound like a dream life to me.

Here's what I suggest. Get a good job that provides steady income with insurance, then you can aford to buy a few acres on the edge of town. Buy you a few animals you like and then buy their feed. Have a small garden and some fruit trees that you can take care of with an hour each evening. Make it your hobby, not a due or die situation. Then you can have the best of both worlds. Just saying!

Wolf mom · #23 10/31/10, 08:52 AM

Well, this sure got everyone's dander up. The OP's naivete sure is showing. Maybe he should have done some lurking first.

Anyway lexluther, welcome and learn, we'll forgive you.

Good post Tracy.

ronbre · #24 10/31/10, 09:15 AM

in my humble opinion..you are going to find it much much cheaper to buy forclosed land with a house, or even just land with a house for sale, then building your own place right now unless you are going to have a very tiny house with very simple cabinetry and plumbing..there are farms for sale in Michigan with houses, land and barns for under $100K, some much under, have seen some for under $50K, go on craigslist or check bank repos.

Most solar and wind power is very expensive, so if you can come up with water power you are going to be way ahead..look for land with a creek or river on it.

corn stoves sound ridiculous to me, as you are counting on a crop that has a tendency to fail regularly, wood would make so much more sense..if you go with wood, or even corn, buy a low to zero emmission one as they will be much better for your health..we have a zero emmision wood boiler and you don't even smell smoke outside..a 1/2 miles down the road they have a regular wood boiler and it annialiates 1/4 mile in each direction with smoke so thick you can't walk by the house !! choke choke.

for one person a 500 square foot greenhouse might be overkill..unless you live in alaska...i have a very small greenhouse for my winter greens and salads and some root crops, the rest of my crops are outside and put UP for winter.

speaking of putting things up, that is where you'll save most of your money..

build yourself a wood/solar water heater with coils that go thru your woodstove in the winter and thru a solar heater in the summer..

keeping food cold will also work better if you have a creek or a spring house for cold..then little need for a refrigerator.

as far as grain, if you are feeding yourself you really don't need grain or flour, it isn't necessary for life ..I use the low carb eating plan and I eat no normal flour only some ground seeds or nuts for flour and that works well for me..I make ground flax seed or almond flour muffins and cakes and breads and don't have any need for wheat or other grain flours, I also don't use potatoes or corn at all, so no need to waste the room, seed or money to grow it..

16 chickens won't keep you in meat for a year, you want enough to lay the eggs you'll eat and then if you want to eat chicken 2 times a week ..you'll need enough chickens to provide that..if you eat a half chicken each time that is 52 chickens a year.

If you plan to put up meat, you'll either need to can it ,dry it, or freeze it..

Forerunner · #25 10/31/10, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ||Downhome||

you should of issued a disclaimer, I see it for what it is as will many others but lex already has sold him/her self this dream and I'm sure there are others
that will buy this at face value also, but you got me rolling forerunner. thanks for the laugh!

.....but I was being serious.

**Terri** · #26 10/31/10, 09:19 AM

Well, a good deal of your time will be spent on watering the garden when it is dry, weeding because even a greenhouse has weeds, preserving the garden and the meat for the winter, putting up hay for your critters, and building your home, areas to store food, and fencing your pasture to keep the critters close in so that the pradators do not get them.

A guy who actually did this said that he spent about 8 hours a day on taking care of his place, and another 8 hours a day writing in order to pay for his car repairs, clothing, and other needed things.

Of course in his 8 hours a day of taking care of his place he included mushrooming, fishing, and such and he had a family to feed as well so you might get away with less time than he spent. Of course, since he was renting, he did not have to build his house.......

I hope we have not scared you away, LOL!

7thswan · #27 10/31/10, 09:28 AM

"Before it's too Late". What does that meen?

motdaugrnds · #28 10/31/10, 10:00 AM

Lexluther, you are overlooking what it takes to "take care of" those chickens, sheep, fruits/berries & vegetables. This does not only include time but includes money as well; and all this done under the confines of the weather. (Oh yes, the weather plays a key part in homesteading. SO DOES THE SOIL!)

You can buy your acreage, build your house, establish a pasture and a garden, set up your fruit trees/bushes & create your heating/electric means...as well as...purchase your stock (fowl/lambs); but that is just "start-up". The REAL WORK is not necessarily in the creation of a homestead; but in the maintenance of one that actually provides what you (and family if have one) need to survive.

I would be interested in hearing from you after you have set your homestead up and been on it for at least a year....unless you are hiring all the maintenance done.

HomeOnTheFarm · #29 10/31/10, 10:07 AM

Dear Lex,

Welcome to the forum. There are a LOT of knowledgeable people here and a lot of good advice has already been given. Nobody is necessarily making fun of your inexperience, it's just the idea of "how can it be as difficult as everyone makes it out to be?" is kind of funny once you get going on your homestead.

I know it's a kids book, but "Ma, I'm a farmer" is a fun way to look at getting started on a homestead (or hobby farm).

There are a great deal of hidden (and not so hidden) expenses (not just monetarily) in homesteading. If you go into it with the mindset that "it can't really be that difficult" and run up on a hard spot, it'll be harder for you to get through. If you go into it with the mindset that "this is going to be hard, dirty, demanding work, but I want my homestead badly enough I'll do anything for it"...life will go much smoother (and usually not as difficult as your imagination can make it out to be).

Happy endeavors!

Sonshine · #30 10/31/10, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Swampgirl

FarmerRob's post is excellent. Welcome & get some experience. You've a lot of good ideas, but have forgotten about all the chores. Who's weeding & spreading manure?
Who's canning, freezing & dehydrating the bounty? Ever plucked a chicken?

You beat me to it. I was wondering why no mention of preserving the food. Harvesting isn't done just once, but throughout the season, and the weeding, oy vey!

Jolly · #31 10/31/10, 10:24 AM

20 grand income/year, before taxes.

That's after you have bought your place, fenced it, bought your critters and all of your machinery.

Simple, isn't it?

pancho · #32 10/31/10, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexluther

I've done some research on homesteading and what it takes to survive, but it all just seems too easy. Having no experience in such matters, I look at it this way:

1. Shelter

Let's say I buy a piece of land with sufficient acreage to build a house on with a few acres for pasture and enough land to either harvest firewood from or at least a few acres for growing corn for a corn stove to cook and keep warm in winter. I hear a corn stove can be set with a thermostat and really requires very little tending. (Not sure about a hot water heater but something similar must exist.) Also I install a windmill for electric and supplement it from the grid.

2. Food

A consensus out there seems to be that a 500 square-foot greenhouse with crop rotation three times a year should be sufficient for fruits (semi-dwarf fruit trees and berries) and vegetables. Grains for flower can either be grown outside the greenhouse in summer or just buy flower (its pretty darn cheap).

Keep about 16 chickens for eggs and meat (three layers, a rooster and 12 growing chickens for meat) and five sheep (one ewe for cheese, a ram and another ewe for raising two lambs at any given time for meat). This should give me three days a week for chicken (one chicken a week) and about two days a week of lamb (two lambs a years produces about 120 pounds of meat). I could go veggie the other two days a week or maybe wing a deer or go fishing if I want.

3. Clothing

Gimme a break. What do I spend on clothing?

4. Health

Okay, here you just have to buy insurance.

So, given that the land is bought; the house, coups and greenhouse built; The windmill is turning; the seeds and fruit trees, starter sheep and chickens bought; and we'll also assume everything is up and running, what does it cost me in time and money to live?

Time--Well, in the summer I need to plant a few aces of corn (maybe a week to plant and another to harvest?) I need to be sure the chickens have water and toss them some corn every day. Same for the sheep in the winter when the pasture isn't growing (I hear you have to trim their toe nails twice a year), and tend to 500 square feet of garden--which really seems like a tiny area. Of course there is slaughtering and butchering but the one is fast and the other only takes place twice per year for the lamb and once a week for the chicken. (And the automatic chicken plucker makes that a snap.) Frankly, this doesn't seem like much more than an hour a day of work.

Money--Flour, not much; insurance, $2000 a year (?), and whatever electric isn't produced by the windmill. (maybe no cost at all).

Conclusion: in my mind--and with my limited imagination--this just doesn't seem like it would require much time or consume much land, leaving me plenty of time to make $2000 a year for insurance plus beer money. For about three months out of the year, the greenhouse is even dormant.

But I've always heard that farmers work from sun up to sun down and have little time or energy at the end of the day and then die broke. So where have my calculations gone wrong? What am I missing? Or is it your little secret just how easy it is?

This is why I need some real veteran homesteaders to set me straight--before its too late.

Sounds like you have it all planned out.
Just a couple of questions.
What are you going to do when a hungry coon comes along and kills all of your chickens in a single night?
What are you going to do when the neighbors dog decides it likes to kill sheep and yours are real handy?
Greenhouses are great. What happens when your crop is doing great and a tornado comes along and your greenhouse happens to be right in its path?

There are always floods, droughts, insects, disease, theft, and just plain bad luck.
Seems like you forgot to figure these in to your plan.
Tending a 500 square foot greenhouse might take a little longer than you are estimating.

thestartupman · #33 10/31/10, 11:12 AM

Lex, you need to check out my post "Cost of Living". I put my estimates on how much I think it will take me to live a pretty self sustaining life. Many others have responded with their estimates, actual cost, and suggestions of things I might not have thought of. It just may help you out. I know a person may be able to live on a lot less if they didn't want some of lifes luxuries, like a phone for comunication to the rest of the world, or insurance to cover yourself if somebody decides they want to take your property, travel expenses, entertainment, oh yes, and lets not forget the luxury of the internet, because who needs all the great info you can get from others on this site.

lmrose · #34 10/31/10, 12:10 PM

My husband farmed all his life on a farm that had to make money. Now he and I have both farmed 25 years on our ten acres. Winter is our slower time. In winter we repair horses harness , horse drawn machienry, work on fixing the house because there is always something going wrong. This week the floor and sill had to be replaced in the entrance where it was rotted. This winter the dining room floor has to be replaced and a window. Once late winter and spring comes there will be no time.

January and February weather permitting Bill will be in the woods cutting next winter's fire wood. Late Feb and March he will be hauling seaweed, tons of it, with the horse and spreading it on pastures and conposting it for the gardens. He will also be putting last years compost in the hothouse, fixing beds and planting early greens, radishes, peppers etc. Freshening pens need to be ready for new baby goats when they come.

By April he is preparing beds and adding compost in preparation for planting. There are barns to clean out daily, hoofs to trim every six weeks, animals to inspect and treat for lice if they have any, wood to bring home from the wood lot in long lengths to pile to let it dry out before fall.
There is spring house cleaning and sweeping down webs in the barn, fences to repair, inspection of the land to remove weeds we don't want spreading. By May there is planting. tilling with a hand cultivator every day to keep weeds from growing. Nesting boxes to prepare for setting hens. Transplanting plants from the hot house to the outside garden.
Repairs to the barn and more fence stakes to sharpen and usually more posts to replace.
Haying starts in June and can end in Sept if we don't get good drying weather. It is days of mowing , turning , stacking , unstacking, speading it and shaking it out. It wouldn't take but a couple of weeks were it not for the weather.

We might get fog, sun, rain, sun fog and never consecative days of north drying winds and sun. So we hay in small amounts so we can get it undercover to take out later and finish drying. Weather is a big factor in getting things done. So are all the people who stop to visit and want to talk on sunny days when we have work to do! By July the potato bugs are out in full force and have to be hand picked. Lawns have to be mowed and flowers weed too.

Harvest is on going from spring to fall depending on thre crop. So is canning and storing food with the bulk done from August to the end of Setember or last of October. Gardens have to be cleaned up and prepared for the next season. Animal feed and our food has to be stored.
There is a lot more but you get the idea. Every thing on our farm has a season and must be done in season to work out right.

Then there are all the things that break that need fixing.
Winter we do more reading, relaxing and visiting from middle of November to late January. If you take care of your land and animals right it is alot of physical work. We produce 99% of what we need for us and the animals. It is time consuming. However we love what we do or we wouldn't be doing it. It is satisfying and we know we are healthier eating what we grow as are the animals. We only have to sell a little to get what money we need to pay our bills. There is always extra to share with others. Neither of us are materialistic people. Simple is better to our way of thinking.

geo in mi · #35 10/31/10, 12:11 PM

Green Acres is the place to be
Farm livin' is the life for me
Land spreadin' out so far and wide
Keep Manhattan, just give me that countryside

New York is where I'd rather stay
I get allergic smelling hay
I just adore a penthouse view
Darling I love you but give me Park Avenue

The chores, the stores
Fresh air, Times Square

You are my wife
Good bye city life
Green Acres we are there

geo

rambler · #36 10/31/10, 12:20 PM

That's a hoot! Probably too hard to save it for April 1st.

Hallow's Eve is probably the next best day for this post.

Wonder which one of the regular's put this up?

--->Paul

texican · #37 10/31/10, 01:27 PM

The best way to become a poor homesteader is to start out as a rich one. Unless you have a nice trust fund, and a herd of chilluns or free labor, you'll never get everything done.

btw... welcome...

there's a search box on the website, where you can read endless threads on near infinite subjects...

catinhat · #38 10/31/10, 02:14 PM

We are not off grid homesteaders. We live on 5 acres, keep some hens for eggs and meat, I raise turkeys some years, and barter eggs for wild game from friends who hunt.

There are lots of expenses that I did not see mentioned. Things like internet access, telephone service of some sort, fuel for vehicles, taxes, car maintenance, license plates, etc. etc. etc. It does add up to something, but perhaps you'll be able to sell enough produce, honey, eggs, etc. etc. etc. to make those expenses. I'm not sure what your final goal is, but I do think that there are more expenses than you mentioned, even if you're totally off grid.

Lexluther · #39 10/31/10, 03:39 PM

You guys have been great. I didn't think I'd get this many responses so fast! Thanks for all the info--and keep it coming. I'm reading every word. As for snide remarks, this is nothing compared to the political sites I frequent and most of you have been very welcoming.

I'm not sure if I made clear that I know its going to be harder than I'm thinking, but I need to know why to get a realistic idea of what I'm getting myself into. In truth (if you're interested) its not just me. We're a group of what will probably end up as about 30 or 40 friends who are of all ages, but . . . wait for it . . . live in the city. Everybody's kicking in money/labor to get this off the ground and I'm hoping that there will be cost savings by pooling for a large piece of land and sharing certain tools/machinery and maybe some specialization of labor to make things easier. (By the way, we're not communists--we're all way too cynical for any of that--just friends who want to drop out, and each with his/her own reasons for doing so.)

Having worked in the city we do have some money that may not be much by city standards but can go some way out in the countryside. So the money should be there for start up costs and learning failures.

I have to admit though that I, for one, am not looking to do this with oxen and washboards. I'm looking to make this as easy as possible. After all, we have to live with all the problems modern society brings with it, why not take the good things as well. Somebody mentioned some things I may want to do and others that may be more efficient just to buy. That kind of thinking sure makes sense to me. I'm good with my hands (I renovate buildings) and am always thinking about how to invent one thing or another to help me in my work.

A lot of people mentioned food storage (canning and such). While I thought of it, I didn't think it would take that much time. And I'm really going to have to look up tending to pasture land and raising corn. I thought you pushed a seed into the ground and harvested it a few months later. ;-) But whatever is required, I'm sure we'll be looking for the easiest, most automated way of doing things. Also, we don't plan on going anywhere without access to the outside world. Stores should be readily available. And we don't all need a truck, a combine, a chicken plucker, etc. but should--by sharing--have the machines we need.

Once again, thanks so much for all the info. And anything else you can add will be very much appreciated.

Lex

mamaof3peas · #40 10/31/10, 04:57 PM

Well I think that's sounds nice! I wish we could find a group who wanted to pool resources