$900 dandelions - sell your weeds!

How else could you explain your inability to remember what transpired in this thread?

The only bet you won was that I have always been able to spot a goat in a herd of sheep. Other than that, your only problem was that you started out, possibly unwittingly, in a hole and continued digging. Not a good thing!

Martin

"Just to be clear: living dandelions exude nutrients that end up in the raspberry. And, in the presence of mature mycelium (granted, the right kind of mycelium - which is actually quite common in richer soils), this effect is enhanced by approximately an order of magnitude."

Paul,
From your quote above and the similiar one by the YouTube narrator, a claim has been made twice that dandelions "Exude" nutrients out of their taproots to other plants--i.e. the raspberry. AGAIN, for the second time I ask you to explain the science of that? ("in the presence of mycelium.." does not seem to be a very scientific answer unless you can describe the chemistry and or physics---and give the reference in scientific journals or published peer results) Why does this seem inportant? 'Cuz, if that is truly fact, we have a revolutionary way to save the world from synthesized fertilizers--just develop systems to capture these exudates and use them in place of 12-12-12....

Or could we say that you and the presenter were "exuding" something else to curry favor, become popular and get better ratings and perhaps even more followers? Nice ego trip, but again WHERE'S the science of that?

geo

I like the quote that I read in a signature earlier in this thread "I am not your google mommy"

Frankly, I don't care if you believe it or not. For me, this is old hat. Not only researched, but most of the people I work with consider this to be an old foundtation block and we've moved on.

The thing I find unnerving is that you won't even permit an alternate thought.

The thing I love about these forums (wow - it's been over ten years) is the sheer mass of knowledge. When I wanted to know more about cast iron stuff, hundreds of people offered bits and bobs of their anecdotal knowledge and not once did somebody leap out and say "where is your proof!"

Here is a guy that, at the very least, is making an anecdotal claim. People come out and say that in the name of science you demand scientific proof.

A true scientist might say "I find that very unlikely and if there is proof I would like to see it." A politician would say "that's not true."

The language of the scientist and the engineer is very exact and designed for progress.

The language of the politician is designed to move things forward like jedi mind tricks: working on the weak minded masses.

So, I am saying "your jedi mind tricks wont work on me" and I find it sad that you would try them on the other folks reading this thread.

There is no point in finding any scientific research until you let go the language of the politicians. I think 99% of our problems can be resolved ten times faster if people will let go of the language of the politicians and embrace the language of the scientist/engineer.

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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Oh, and Martin ...

I rarely ever drink. I just never developed a taste for hooch. I suppose the last time I tried to drink something it was years ago and had an umbrella in it.

To close a loophole: I was not drinking last night.

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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I believe you owe me another apology.

Nutrient transfer from one living plant to another living plant (even plants of different species) via mycellium bridges is well documented.
See the book "Fungi in ecosystem processes" by John Dighton for references to several studies.

Paul,

Your comment: "Here is a guy that, at the very least, is making an anecdotal claim. People come out and say that in the name of science you demand scientific proof.

A true scientist might say "I find that very unlikely and if there is proof I would like to see it."



My question was: "From your quote above and the similiar one by the YouTube narrator, a claim has been made twice that dandelions "Exude" nutrients out of their taproots to other plants--i.e. the raspberry. AGAIN, for the second time I ask you to explain the science of that? ("in the presence of mycelium.." does not seem to be a very scientific answer unless you can describe the chemistry and or physics---and give the reference in scientific journals or published peer results)"

My question, simplified: I find that very unlikely and if there is proof I would like to see it.

Thanks,
geo

Google is your friend!

If you are open minded and truly want to learn more, well, then, knock yourself out!!!!

Maybe Paul would like to post pictures of his farm--or maybe someone could do it for him?

It seems that nutrient transfer is possible.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...=1&oi=scholart

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"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

Despite what is found via the Google link, there is still no evidence anywhere that dandelions are able to support any ectomycorrhizal mycelia.

Martin

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...d&searchtype=a

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"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

That article covers the known manufacture and storage of nutrients in dandelions but not transfer from living plant to living plant. Dandelions were planted as a cover crop the previous year. The same results could be had by plowing under peas, beans, rye, vetch, clover or whatever one wishes to sow. The nutrients are then released as the dying plant breaks down.

Martin

Dandelions represent either lack of calcium or colloidally weak calcium.

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I'm an environmentalist, left wing, Ron Paul loving Prius driver with a farm. If you have a problem with that, kindly go take a leap.

http://www.usask.ca/biology/kaminskyj/arctic.html

Scroll down to Yang (Lilia) Li: Mycorrhiza diversity, for a confocal epifluorescence microscopy photo of Dandelion roots supporting arbuscular mycorrhiza, the most predominant form of mycorrhiza and the most prevalent symbiotic association found in the plant kingdom.

Hey guys, this has turned into an argument. Not very informative to read.

Actually, What we know is such a small percentage of total knowledge, it is not a good idea to be hard and fast in our data. There is simply too much that we don't know.

Anyway, I want to find out where I can sell grass burrs for only $100! Now that would make me a billioniare!

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We will meet in the golden city, called the New Jerusalem,
All our pain and all our tears will be no more.....

The informative part is to sort out how it can apply to either homesteading or gardening when it is or is not applicable to normal agricultural or gardening practices.

Really, all the OP wanted to do was get as many people as possible, from a number of different forums, to review and critique his latest new video. (On one it was entered in the "Meaningless Drivel" section.) From viewing other comments, it would appear that nobody has any issue with his well-done video. What he was not expecting was to have to explain the video content and it was evident that he was ill-prepared for that. And no matter how long this thread goes, it will never be explained satisfactorily to all parties involved.

Martin

-30-

Paul,

I don't wish to offend the other readers who think this has turned into arguing. I appreciate that you are trying to spread information about permaculture to the other forum members via your medium of YouTube presentations and such. Sometimes I marvel and appreciate your abundant zeal in doing so.

In fairness to all, I did try to read all the Google listings that seemed to apply to mycorrhizal activity regarding dandelions, mycelium linking, or bridging, to other living plants, both alike and unalike(yes, there are some linkages), and to nutrient transfer.. But honestly, unless I overlooked one, I found no mention of living dandelions exuding or transferring their nutrients to the raspberry plant as you have claimed. I'll have to leave it to you to direct me to a study or reference that does, if you are so inclined.

In fairness, also, I went back to the original Utube presentation, and I must admit, he really didn't say that dandelions do that, either. Basically he did say that all the weeds, and dandelions in his raspberry patch act as solar collectors, pumping(I believe he said 50% of the sun's energy they receive) into the soil to feed and nourish the other plants.

In my opinion, I think he, and you, would be more correct in saying that dead weeds and dandelions--plus all the clippings or mowings, if he does such--will replenish the soil, and the raspberries will benefit. That's pretty unarguable.


For those members of this forum who would like to learn a bit more about mycorrhizal activity, the following website seems to be a fair and referenced summary of the findings to date;http://umanitoba.ca/afs/agronomists_...ycorrhizas.pdf

I would also invite others to study those links of the posters offered in this thread, especially those studying live, inter-plant transfer, as well.

Thanks,

geo

geo,

To me, it seems obvious and I have a hundred other things to do today ... and my daily chores involve getting information to thousands of people. So part of me says I shouldn't spend time on just one person while I keep thousands waiting. On the other hand, I like your post and feel powerfully compelled to try to help.

While it is true that the raspberry will gain from a dead dandelion, the raspberry will also gain from a living dandelion.

And it isn't that just one plant does this, my impression is that nearly all plants do this.

I think that this is an important issue, and I don't have any of this stuff bookmarked or anything like that. So the best I can offer at this point is to keep my eye out, or to possibly interview some people who are either writing this stuff or are aware of the specific documents.

I guess I am so far beyond this issue that I don't even think about it anymore. This video was made for the general public - so it was already really simplified. And this is something where I think the evidence is right in front of everybody, so it seems obvious. To me. Of course, it is a topic that is big enough that covering it in a post would be difficult.

I can't remember if stamets book (mycelium running) covers this.

Here are facts:

There are thousands (millions?) of people that are convinced that this is true. This does not prove it to be true, but it does lend to this not being something too crazy.

There is no proof that it is not true.

There is ample proof of allelopathy - would you agree? Therefore, there are many channels where a plant can exude something that will harm other plants. From this, one could speculate that a plant could exude something that is of benefit to other plants.

Each plant has it's own ways to exude stuff while living. Each living plant exudes different stuff. Water is a good example. Evapo-transpiration through the leaves is a good example. Water is not allelopathic. And is this something you need proof of? Probably not.

Will the water be pure? I think you would agree that it would be not pure. If the plant had a tap root, it is plausible that it brought up hard water - loaded with minerals. And these minerals could accumulate under the leaf and sluff off. Would you agree with this one possibility?

If so, then we have laid the ground work for this whole scenario to be reasonably possible.

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My understanding is that the dandelion is particularly good at gathering nutrients that are of value to other plants and exuding stuff out of its roots. With the deep tap root, it is able to get the water and nutrients it needs, and along with that it gets excess levels of stuff it does not need. So much that it becomes toxic - so it needs to get rid of it. It tends to exude this out of its roots where it becomes available to other plants, mycelium, etc.

In the absence of mature mycelium of the right type (such as in a tilled soil, or lifeless dirt) then the dandelion ends up sorta sitting in a soup of its own waste and nearby plants have difficulty finding the nutrients.

Further, supposing we are making a dandion crop - rows and rows of a dandelion monoculture: all of the dandelions are exuding the same stuff and the other dandelions don't want it either.

Now, let us introduce polyculture: suppose there are 20 different species nearby including raspberries. Raspberries would use some of that stuff - and then the raspberries would exude out some of the stuff they don't need. And some of the stuff that the raspberries exude out could turn out to be stuff that dandelion wants.

Now we add in a good mycelium and rich soil and the exchange is increased by an approximate order of magnitude.

Now mix in a few legumes.

In permaculture, we favor the black locust over the honey locust because while they are living, the black locust exudes nitrogen usable for other plants and the honey locust keeps all its nitrogen for itself.

When creating plant guilds in permaculture, we select plants that are great at sharing and we avoid plants that are allelopathic.

While this is not proof, perhaps it offers a glimpse of what is going on in my head. Perhaps you are willing to admit that it is plausible and it gives you enough fuel to spend some time with google to find the proof you seek.

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[raising chickens] [diatomaceous earth] [permaculture] [rocket mass heater] [lawn care]

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