How do you Go to the Door...........??

ChristieAcres · #**101** 10/30/10, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emptycupranch

I know you are not bad people - most of my family are US born and raised. It is the general attitude that I disagree with. What I cannot wrap my brain around is the mindset that it is ok to pull a gun on a stranger? That a person cannot feel safe enough to open a door unarmed is crazy. Even when I lived in the inner-city, the roughest part of the city, I could trust that if I needed help on one of the nights I was walking home, I could knock on a door and be assisted, without having my life threatened or being turned away to fend for myself. There seems to be no camaraderie, no looking out for a fellow person, neighbor, passer-by, sentient being. What a dead-end way to live life!

I'd rather be considered crazy, but still "not a bad person," by a complete stranger THAN BE DEAD! BTW- death is a dead end street, not prudent use of arms in self defense... Interesting you feel insulting great people in a condescending way is making some sort of a legitimate point. Is that possibly a bit...uh...dare we say, "crazy?"

SueMc · #**102** 10/30/10, 07:45 AM

I am more than willing to help anyone who comes knocking on my door, and have, but not to the expense of my family.
My mom was stopped at a stop sign two yrs ago near her home (somewhat rural), a guy looked like he was going to walk across in front of her then veered off and stuck his hand through the open passenger window reaching for the door handle. Thank God she didn't have any problem "thinking it was OK to pull a gun on a stranger". He may have just been after her purse, but could just as easily been after the car and she would have been a body in the woods. I'm just thankful her reaction time was good for a 76 yr. old.
It is also surprising at the number of people here who think bad guys don't knock. To me it seems like the smart thing to do. If you knock and no one answers, you possibly have an empty house to rob. If someone answers you just make up an excuse that you're lost. Seems like the way to do it. There have also been too many stories about opening the door to help and having that person push their way in and hurt or kill everyone in the house.
It is not an issue of not caring for or trying to help your fellow man, it's an issue of the safety of my children/family being more important than the person at the door. If the stranger is more important than your family then that's what you have to live with.

To answer the question...I'd talk to the person through a closed door and give directions or call any number they might give me. After they were gone, I'd also call the sheriff and let them know that there was someone knocking on doors at 2 am. I would do that because I do care about my fellow man and wouldn't want one of my less cautious neighbors be the victim of someone who didn't get to rob my house that night and decided to try again down the road.

SueMc · #**103** 10/30/10, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clovis

We are not bad people here in the US.

The population of the US is approximately 10 times more than Canada.

I've read that 90% of all the crime in the US was tied to alcohol or drugs in some fashion. Does that tell you anything?

This link shows some Canadian stats:
http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/b...cs-canada.aspx

My point being that while there may be a lot less crime there than here, there are bad guys robbing homes in Canada and many do have guns.
It only takes one gun and one bullet to kill you while you're standing in your front door and that person won't care how nice you were.

(Clovis..this post was more for the poster you quoted, but only your posting showed up as a quote)

pancho · #**104** 10/30/10, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emptycupranch

I know you are not bad people - most of my family are US born and raised. It is the general attitude that I disagree with. What I cannot wrap my brain around is the mindset that it is ok to pull a gun on a stranger? That a person cannot feel safe enough to open a door unarmed is crazy. Even when I lived in the inner-city, the roughest part of the city, I could trust that if I needed help on one of the nights I was walking home, I could knock on a door and be assisted, without having my life threatened or being turned away to fend for myself. There seems to be no camaraderie, no looking out for a fellow person, neighbor, passer-by, sentient being. What a dead-end way to live life!

Recently in the city where I work there was a rash of car hijackings. They would wait at a signal ight and when a car stopped they would run out and try to open the car door. When they were able to do that they would take the car, the people in it, and drive off. Several times they took cars with children in the back seat.

Another favorite of thugs in the same city. They would pay a kid to walk down the street kicking the front doors as hard as he could. If no one came to the door and an alarm didn't go off they would kick the door in and rob the place.

In the inner-city you would not make it up to the door of the nearest house. They would find your body, maybe, later in a ditch, abandoned house, or burning beside the road. You couldn't expect the police to help as they would only go into the neighborhood inside of a swat van.

geo in mi · #**105** 10/30/10, 10:27 AM

I'll have to agree with the Canadian poster to some extent, but.....

Yes, I think there is a higher sense of paranoia in the US these days. 9/11, our dismal economy, the angry political bickering and name-calling, and meth all have had a part in this. And, many of us are getting older and less secure in our thinking that we could win a face-off with someone younger, stronger, and angrier--without resorting to FDR's "big stick" policy.

I go to the gun shop periodically, because I'm looking for a Springfield M-6 to use as my garden gun for varmits(and because it's neat....) Lately I've also been drooling over a Mossburg 20 gauge 510 Super Bantam Mini model pump gun (sounds the Christmas Story, eh? I want a Daisy Red Ryder B-B gun,,,) which might make the perfect bedroom weapon--or to have in hand at two AM when the doorbell rings(not many cars on this road at 2AM) Small, lightweight, composite stock, simple to operate, short barrel, point and shoot. More than one shot, if needed. And, no fuss to buy -no handgun permit needed, just the normal paperwork and the background check. (But alas, I'll have to wait a bit longer until the cash flow situation--about $350-- improves around here)

Keep in mind that, a couple of years ago, I bought a S & W twelve gauge pump action, police/riot gun for the same purpose. And perhaps for its antique value, nice walnut stock, and its overwhelming 'fear' factor that, perhaps, even a meth-high crazy might respect if he met up with it. (Again, not many cars come down this road at two AM in the morning) And we have only one deputy sheriff on patrol, thanks to our dwindling county budget.

But, I decided that that's just too much of a "big stick"-I don't really relish the cleanup aspect and door replacement that using such a brute of a weapon would cause--so., I need to downsize........ 20 gauge is enough for the job at hand--if ever I needed to use it.

And right there is the key statement--"If ever I needed to use it...." My opinion is that our Canadian friend is astonished at the "brandishing talk" going on, but doesn't realize that each and every American--at least thinking and prudent Americans--while seemingly armed to the teeth, take the issue of taking another life, even a criminal life, very seriously. Yes, the facelessness of the internet allows us to speak boldly,even sometimes rashly(and I'm not going to shoot at anyone for simply trying to take my chain saw out in the barn...), but.....Getting a weapon for something other than hunting or target shooting is serious business, with awesome responsibility, so.....most of us don't do that without lots of thought and making decisions BEFORE pulling the weapon on anybody, let alone pulling the trigger.

But I'll still take it with me to the door, and I'll put it into the bedside holder.....

(But if an M-6 comes into the shop, I'll plunk down the money for that first....)
geo

Mike in Ohio · #**106** 10/30/10, 10:41 AM

Our home is close to 80 and every winter we get 1-3 times when are people banging on our door in the middle of the night, generally when the weather is pretty nasty. Our farmhouse is visible from the highway and folks will climb the fence and walk across to our house. Some folks are apologetic and some folks are overbearing, demanding and nasty.

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that answering the door with the shotgun in hand is the safest thing all the way around. If a person truly needs help we will make sure they get it. If a person starts demanding this or that they can head off our property and we will call the authorities.

Mike

ChristieAcres · #**107** 10/30/10, 12:05 PM

When you have faced violence, it is prudent to take risk-based precautions. If you have never faced it, great, but you can't walk in our shoes. SueMc- I am so glad your mother was armed and protected herself. She isn't a statistic. Sadly, I have known others who didn't and are now statistics.

With the drop in law enforcement, response time has increased. In many areas, you better be prepared to handle your own emergencies. We are fortunately only 4 minutes from the fire dept.

Where you are sure makes a difference, too. If you live on a main hwy or thoroughfare, then, yes, you will get a lot more "lost" people. My primary issue is the TIME. Since we live off a private road (long driveway and secluded), we don't get people knocking on our doors in the middle of the night. If there is a knock, we will both know it is a real emergency or someone with criminal intent. SueMc made another excellent point- knocking on the door is a great way for a criminal to gain access, lying about getting directions usually works. Also, DH made this point- if a criminal intends to break in or gain access to your home, he will not show up at an occupied home "UNARMED." Unless he is a real idiot, he will come very well prepared.

emptycupranch · #**108** 10/30/10, 12:23 PM

Quote:

I'd rather be considered crazy, but still "not a bad person," by a complete stranger THAN BE DEAD! BTW- death is a dead end street, not prudent use of arms in self defense... Interesting you feel insulting great people in a condescending way is making some sort of a legitimate point. Is that possibly a bit...uh...dare we say, "crazy?"

I am sorry that you feel I was insulting and condescending - that was not my intention at all!! Think of it as me being ignorant of your mindset, naive even. I am just trying to express my feelings as I read the responses that are so far out of my reality, and to share what it is like for myself in my area.

Quote:

And right there is the key statement--"If ever I needed to use it...." My opinion is that our Canadian friend is astonished at the "brandishing talk" going on, but doesn't realize that each and every American--at least thinking and prudent Americans--while seemingly armed to the teeth, take the issue of taking another life, even a criminal life, very seriously. Yes, the facelessness of the internet allows us to speak boldly,even sometimes rashly(and I'm not going to shoot at anyone for simply trying to take my chain saw out in the barn...), but.....Getting a weapon for something other than hunting or target shooting is serious business, with awesome responsibility, so.....most of us don't do that without lots of thought and making decisions BEFORE pulling the weapon on anybody, let alone pulling the trigger.

This is a most helpful statement! That is exactly where part of my shock is coming from - that it seems many people here would have no qualms about shooting a fellow person just because they knocked on your door and you didn't know them. It is good to hear that perhaps it isn't so.

The other part I find shocking is that people here would so easily turn a person in need away. If you didn't want them in your house could you not still offer to make a phone call for them? Even call the police to request assistance (I mean assistance for them, not you). It saddens me that there is so much fear in people's lives that they need to take on a "it's me or them" attitude. Or is it "me vs them"? The whole idea of 'community' has dissolved into...well I don't know what?

Again, I am just voicing differences in thoughts & lifestyles - no need to feel attacked please

pancho · #**109** 10/30/10, 12:31 PM

What some seem to not understand. Just having a gun does not mean you have to shoot anyone. They are used for defence not offence. A person in their own home is not going on the offence. The person knocking at the door may be on the offence. A gun is just like having a lock on your door.

SueMc · #**110** 10/30/10, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emptycupranch

The other part I find shocking is that people here would so easily turn a person in need away.

I need to reread because I didn't get that feel here, only that most people are prudent about opening that door without forethought.
I my 55 yrs in this Country, I am a firm believer that the majority of people here would help someone in need at a moment's notice. Of course those are not the ones that you hear about on the news.

Sawmill Jim · #**111** 10/30/10, 01:01 PM

Big difference in being prepared and aggressive

Opening a door of a night to any unknown person you may only have one chance .

Kind of like being in your swamp up to your arm pits and remembering you should of drained the swamp ,a might late wouldn't you think .

Being prepared is not fear ,do you carry a spare tie from fear of having a flat or in case you do .

Have had the two o'clock knock on the door from a drunk i didn't know. Turn the porch light on he started turning the storm door knob and the wife's dog hit the other door hard before i could come up with the gun. He said i am closing it an i said though you would said i want to come in and use the phone told him the wife would make his call and she did .

Drugs and booze can be a real killer more ways than one . I didn't want any trouble of any sort.

For those that don't know my son's buddy got in a gun fight with a guy on meth and other drugs he put 13 9mm bullets in the guy before he went down .His buddy said he though the guy was wearing body armor or he was missing . He was also shot . Here no need to call the cops the buzzards would find me before they got here

geo in mi · #**112** 10/30/10, 03:33 PM

I'll give you the shirt off my back, but don't you try to take it off my back. To quote another President, "Trust, but verify." (RR)

geo

Kshobbit · #**113** 10/30/10, 03:45 PM

Kansas people used to be very trusting, never locked the door and left the keys in the car in case someone might need it. If they did borrow the car,they would return it with a full tank of gas and a thank you. There started to be breakins and lots of stealing and the crooks said that is what you get for not locking your doors!
Out of state people would move in and start a charge account at the local mom and pop grocery and then leave owing hundreds of dollars. I know of several grocery stores that closed because they lost so much money to these kind of folks. Then Methamphetamines came not only use but meth labs popped up all over the 4 state area(KS/OK/MO/AR). There are so many arrests for Meth labs in Oklahoma that the same people get out on bail and re-arrested 4 or 5 times before they could be tried! I worked nights in the ER and we got very good at spotting these people. Then the drug killings started. Let me tell you the meth addicts are scary, they are wired to the max and their perception of reality is to say the least askew. They also steal anything that is not nailed down. This is in a rather rural area and I lived in southeast Kansas most of my life and never even heard of such things happening here.
When I lived in Tennessee, it was almost common to hear of a lady with car trouble who had vanished from the car never to be found.
Still I don't think of myself as paranoid, just being careful. Or as my Grandma used to say,"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
I have seriously considered moving to Canada because of the low crime rate there. And I would never shoot anyone unless my life or my family's life was in danger.

scooter · #**114** 10/30/10, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emptycupranch

I am sorry that you feel I was insulting and condescending - that was not my intention at all!! Think of it as me being ignorant of your mindset, naive even. I am just trying to express my feelings as I read the responses that are so far out of my reality, and to share what it is like for myself in my area.

This is a most helpful statement! That is exactly where part of my shock is coming from - that it seems many people here would have no qualms about shooting a fellow person just because they knocked on your door and you didn't know them. It is good to hear that perhaps it isn't so.

The other part I find shocking is that people here would so easily turn a person in need away. If you didn't want them in your house could you not still offer to make a phone call for them? Even call the police to request assistance (I mean assistance for them, not you). It saddens me that there is so much fear in people's lives that they need to take on a "it's me or them" attitude. Or is it "me vs them"? The whole idea of 'community' has dissolved into...well I don't know what?

Again, I am just voicing differences in thoughts & lifestyles - no need to feel attacked please

We will always help someone in need. We had a drunk drive into our yard and get wedged between two trees with his car. We put the first call into the sheriff's department and then he gave us the number to call his wife. She hung up, didn't want any part of him, the sheriff came and took him away. We wouldn't ever think to let someone freeze to death outside in our Minnesota weather, but we sure didn't want to be saddled with this drunk either.

taylorlambert · #**115** 10/30/10, 08:04 PM

I got a call from a customer that did that was robbed last night. Her husband doesnt believe in guns but she does. He hanswered the door and 2 meth heads rushed in and knocked him down and monkey stomped them. My customer has harses and tranquilisers for them. They were looking for them earlier in the barn by themselves. THat why they came back last night.

Ravenlost · #**116** 10/30/10, 08:19 PM

Folks would have to climb over a locked gate, walk a half mile in the dark and get past a dozen or so territorial stranger unfriendly dogs to get to our door. Ain't happened yet, don't figure it ever will.

**clovis** · #**117** 10/30/10, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kshobbit

Kansas people used to be very trusting, never locked the door and left the keys in the car in case someone might need it. If they did borrow the car,they would return it with a full tank of gas and a thank you. There started to be breakins and lots of stealing and the crooks said that is what you get for not locking your doors!
Out of state people would move in and start a charge account at the local mom and pop grocery and then leave owing hundreds of dollars. I know of several grocery stores that closed because they lost so much money to these kind of folks. Then Methamphetamines came not only use but meth labs popped up all over the 4 state area(KS/OK/MO/AR). There are so many arrests for Meth labs in Oklahoma that the same people get out on bail and re-arrested 4 or 5 times before they could be tried! I worked nights in the ER and we got very good at spotting these people. Then the drug killings started. Let me tell you the meth addicts are scary, they are wired to the max and their perception of reality is to say the least askew. They also steal anything that is not nailed down. This is in a rather rural area and I lived in southeast Kansas most of my life and never even heard of such things happening here.
When I lived in Tennessee, it was almost common to hear of a lady with car trouble who had vanished from the car never to be found.
Still I don't think of myself as paranoid, just being careful. Or as my Grandma used to say,"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
I have seriously considered moving to Canada because of the low crime rate there. And I would never shoot anyone unless my life or my family's life was in danger.

Very, very, very well said.

I don't think that the average person that knocks on your door worries anyone here. It is the crack and meth heads that have people worried.

About 5 or 6 years ago, on a sunny Tuesday afternoon, a meth head and his girlfriend from the big city stopped at a random house in the country, and shot through the door and murdered a 68 year old woman. They robbed the house, and then fled. The woman lived on a very busy rural road.

This happened about 15 miles from where I live, and about 10 miles from my parents. The crime took place in another county.

After that incident, everything changed. In this rural area, people stopped trusting others, and started locking every door.

That incident had such an affect on everyone that when I go to visit my folks, it is like trying to get into Fort Knox.

A sad testament to the drug problem in our society.

FWIW, the guy that shot the woman got life in prison, and the girlfriend only got 3 years on a plea deal for turning the shooter in. Since she knew he had a gun, and she knew they were looking to rob someone, they should have hung both of them!!!!!

Alice In TX/MO · #**118** 10/30/10, 10:05 PM

This may cause thread drift, but my home is about 1/2 mile off of a major highway that runs from the Texas/Mexico border to Houston. In the last few years we have had repeated incidents of illegal aliens fleeing from law enforcement across our property. I've had my fences cut by law enforcement on horseback to chase said aliens. I've made cell phone calls to direct the law enforcement personnel to the location of fleeing aliens that I could see, but they couldn't.

I've had illegal aliens follow me to the house after I milked my goats early in the morning.

SO FAR, these have all been non-violent incidents. They have, however, made me quite cautious about leaving doors unlocked and keys in my vehicles.

I understand that these folks are just looking for work, and their main desire is to get to a major metropolitan area. It's still nerve wracking.

ChristieAcres · #**119** 10/31/10, 02:23 AM

Quote:

emptycupranch- I am sorry that you feel I was insulting and condescending - that was not my intention at all!! Think of it as me being ignorant of your mindset, naive even. I am just trying to express my feelings as I read the responses that are so far out of my reality, and to share what it is like for myself in my area.

I was not sharing my "feelings" or trying to analyze anything you wrote based on my experiences. That would be ignorant. Reading what you wrote, word for word, it reads clearly as though you are putting people who believe in arming themselves to answer a door at 2:30AM in one category- that of "crazy." Let's read it again:

[QUOTE]

Quote:

I know you are not bad people- most of my family are US born and raised.

That is an interesting statement. While you "know we aren't bad...," you go on to write:

Quote:

It is the general attitude that I disagree with. What I cannot wrap my brain around is the mindset that it is ok to pull a gun on a stranger? That a person cannot feel safe enough to open a door unarmed is crazy.

It sure reads to me that you have decided you can judge all those who carry a gun to open their own doors, being knocked on in the middle of the night (2:30AM), as acting "crazy." I consider the statement in bold rather judgmental. You are clearly saying people who go to the door armed "don't feel safe." I assure you, I felt VERY SAFE when I carried a gun in my purse in Wyoming walking at night after work. I wasn't the young woman who was raped, murdered, and dumped in the trash (same route I walked). At this time, there were 7 men for every woman there. Violence against women was common. I was one of the few women I knew who hadn't been raped or physically attacked. That statement went on to say that people who go to the door armed are acting in a manner you consider "crazy." That reads as an insult.

Quote:

Even when I lived in the inner-city, the roughest part of the city, I could trust that if I needed help on one of the nights I was walking home, I could knock on a door and be assisted, without having my life threatened or being turned away to fend for myself. There seems to be no camaraderie, no looking out for a fellow person, neighbor, passer-by, sentient being.

While you are painting those of us who arm ourselves for protection as "paranoid" (in so many words) and "crazy" (this was literally the word you used), and even lacking "compassion." Hmmm, I don't feel insulted, your choice of words are insulting and are directed at many fine people on here. That isn't the same thing as sharing feelings.

Quote:

What a dead-end way to live life!

This is a statement that you think you can make about people you don't know based on them carrying a gun to answer their own doors in the middle of the night? That, once again, isn't sharing "feelings," but is a statement of fact. Since "your way" is superior to that way, and your way "isn't a dead-end way to live life," that is condescending.

What I have written above is my response to what you wrote. You are responsible for what you write, not how any of us respond to it. I am puzzled why you would apologize in such a way:

Quote:

I am sorry that you feel I was insulting and condescending

Last thing I'll respond to directly. What are you sorry for? Writing something that was insulting and condescending? Because that is what you wrote. I thought it was actually quite funny that you could be in a state of ignorance after many fine people simply wrote responses about what they would do. Plenty went on to say they would call the Police, summon help for the stranger, but not foolishly risk their very lives to let someone in who could be there for the sole purpose of robbing them or killing them.

Now, if you read what Kshobbit & Clovis wrote (posting hers here):

Quote:

Very, very, very well said.

I don't think that the average person that knocks on your door worries anyone here. It is the crack and meth heads that have people worried.

About 5 or 6 years ago, on a sunny Tuesday afternoon, a meth head and his girlfriend from the big city stopped at a random house in the country, and shot through the door and murdered a 68 year old woman. They robbed the house, and then fled. The woman lived on a very busy rural road.

This happened about 15 miles from where I live, and about 10 miles from my parents. The crime took place in another county.

After that incident, everything changed. In this rural area, people stopped trusting others, and started locking every door.

That incident had such an affect on everyone that when I go to visit my folks, it is like trying to get into Fort Knox.

A sad testament to the drug problem in our society.

FWIW, the guy that shot the woman got life in prison, and the girlfriend only got 3 years on a plea deal for turning the shooter in. Since she knew he had a gun, and she knew they were looking to rob someone, they should have hung both of them!!!!!

That 68 year old woman wasn't armed. She is dead. I feel terrible for her family and friends who have had to mourn her death.

If you read what SueMc wrote about her mother above (her mother is 76). She had a gun and that is why she wasn't car-jacked. She is alive.

Do you think a lot of average folks knock on doors in the middle of the night in neighborhoods they have never been in? That can be pretty risky! Unfortunately, most people who would dare knock on doors in the middle of the night have no choice (a real emergency) or as has been pointed out...drunk, high on drugs, and/or criminals there to rob or do harm to you personally.

I have lived in rough areas, higher crime, held a dead teen in my arms, while his mother wept over him, and I could go on and on about my real life, unfortunately facing violence and death. There is no point to that.

Trees are risk can come down in a windstorm and crush your home. The at-risk trees should be cut. Simple logic.

Fires can destroy your home. A good smoke detector and even a heat sensor can save your life. Again, these are precautions.

Any of us who choose to come to the door, night or day, with a loaded gun (a precaution), is exercising a Constitutional right. We are all entitled to use firearms to defend ourselves should our lives be threatened. You can't defend yourself with a firearm unless you have it in your hand (loading it would be a good idea, too).

I sincerely hope, given your mindset, which I respectfully feel you are entitled to, the level of "safety" remains the same. If it doesn't, you may be facing violence with zero precautions. That is scary to me.

Little Quacker in OR · #**120** 10/31/10, 12:03 PM

As I am a senior out in the boonies by myself(not counting the three cattle dogs that stay in with me)I am careful, but hey, people do get in trouble and while I'm happy to help I do use common sense. My boys set up very BRIGHT lights by all of the doors out of my old mobile home so when I flip a switch it is like daylight out by any of the three porches and the security light illuminates the gates too.

I do keep a shotgun sitting just behind the door and a .38 by my bed and a small hand gun right by where I sit on the couch watching TV. My dogs, like most, have a livid fit when anyone rattles a chain at the gates so its unlikely that anyone would make it to my front door anyway that time of night. When the dogs "go off" I start switching on lights and I can call to people at the gates to see what's up. If they need to make a phone call I'm happy to do it.

We do have to be careful these days but it shouldn't keep us from trying to help someone in trouble.

LQ