Are your free range eggs safe?

Allen W · #81 09/23/10, 08:27 PM

This thread has made me hungry for some homemade ice cream, and before you ask none of the ingredients will be cooked.

haypoint · #82 09/23/10, 08:58 PM

I am not against free range. I just want to keep it real. We all take pride in our home raised products. There seems to be a few that take this pride a step or two beyond reality. It becomes us against the Big Guy, class envy.

If you say your eggs are better because you gather them each day and then make the claim that the Big Guy operations let their eggs lay around, unrefrigerated, for a couple days, you are letting class envy push you beyond the truth.

When we harvest our gardens, we understand how much work went into each squash. It sort of hurts when we see nicer shaped squash at the store for a buck. We can smooth that feeling by rationalizing that ours are fresher or magically have more vitamins or whatever.

When we tally up the costs, both money and time, to produce each gallon of milk, we must believe that it is healthier than any store bought milk.

But for the most part, none of our products get tested and no one gets sick.

In many of the ways that food from the Mega Farms gets recalled, the home raised products could very well be contaminated, too.

" Yes due to the way we care for our chickens, feed them, and provide for their needs as well as we can, handling, safety measures, and there you go. I just love fresh eggs! "

Gosh, I wish that animal kindness stopped bacteria and infectious diseases. At any time, anyone's hens could start producing eggs with salmonella inside. It just happens sometimes.

Well groomed cattle in lush pastures contract campylobacter. Cows fed fresh high quality feed get mastitis. Sweet looking milk can contain e Coli. Tasty cheese can contain harmful bacteria.

Sure, poor quality feed, care and housing contribute to unhealthy animals. But we need to accept that most large operations are not producing contaminated products and there are a few backyard flocks that produce contaminated eggs.

Rather than drown ourselves in denial, while making wild accusations against big farming, we could serve each other better by learning about plant and animal diseases. Admission is the first step.

Heritagefarm · #83 09/23/10, 09:17 PM

In response to haypoint -
I wanted to know if they washed their eggs. Conventional wisdom with farmers is to not wash eggs, since it can allow bacteria to enter. Our eggs never even require washing. Also, you paint the CAFO hens as having a good life - why, then, do they require antibiotics? How, also, is manure exposed of? And another thing... That hen that's scratching in cows pats... The bacteria isn't going to pass straight to the egg - it will go through the digestive tract, and so far I am unaware of any procaryotic organism that can survive a digestive tract.

ChristieAcres · #84 09/23/10, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Haypoint-
" Yes due to the way we care for our chickens, feed them, and provide for their needs as well as we can, handling, safety measures, and there you go. I just love fresh eggs! "

Gosh, I wish that animal kindness stopped bacteria and infectious diseases. At any time, anyone's hens could start producing eggs with salmonella inside. It just happens sometimes.

What did I put in bold? Ooops, glossed right over "safety measures." Is that included in "animal kindness," or am I to infer you meant something else...LOL.

Ah, think I am out to lunch, eh? I can add that I WASH my hands, my eggs, and do NOT eat them raw. That is the way you prevent bacteria, contamination, and also from getting Salmonella. I did NOT say my chickens couldn't get it, but said I wasn't worried, because I believe in taking precautions (i.e. safety measures). Others don't take these precautions and that is something I wouldn't debate them on. It is called "informed risk-based choices." My little Grandma Bee (short for Beatrice) lived on a ranch with Grandpa Oly (Oly short for Olympia Beer which he would drink). She was the hardest working little gal (stood 4'11) I have ever seen. Just non-stop, brilliant, too. They lived on 90 acres and supported themselves with their ranch, about as self-sufficient as I have ever seen. Well, little Grandma Bee would go out to her chicken house every single early afternoon, and gather her eggs, and into a soapy bucket they would all go, on her front porch. I asked her why she put the eggs in the bucket, because I had already been told why she washed them. She said the bad eggs would float and that is how she was able to tell which ones were rotten. My little grandma taught me a lot and I am sure thankful for that. What a blessing!

I make cooked eggnog & ice cream (no raw eggs). That is simply my choice. So, Haypoint one should just never assume...

Fresh eggs have thick shells, and as they age, those shells become thinner. The yolks start out bright orange and when old are light yellow. I haven't read any studies on nutrition other than it has been confirmed fertilized eggs are more nutritious than unfertilized eggs. Our eggs are fertilized, oh yes, how do I know...oh dear me, two roosters who get a lot of action, considering sending one on a permanent vacation (not to the stew pot but to a little paradise serving as a King over a new harem...). Of course, 100% fertilized, one just cannot be sure, but frankly I don't care.

On produce? Fresh is higher in nutrition, that is why fruit and vegetables are "frozen at the peak of freshness." As fruit and vegetables age, nutrition does diminish. Fruit and vegetables picked when fresh are more nutritious than those that are picked "green" and allowed to ripen. All about what choices are available. I know I am getting an avocado that has been picked green and allowed to ripen, but since they don't grow here, well I have no other choice if I want one. I grow almost all the vegetables we eat and do so organically, yes, and I wash them, too! It is a comfort to me that I know what soil they grew in, knew what I amended that soil with, knew I watered with fresh water free from chemicals, know there are no poisons used anywhere on our property. That is what homesteading is about, making your own risk-based decisions, and BEING PROUD OF IT!

Lazy J · #85 09/23/10, 10:23 PM

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

We finally have reached the "Small Good, Big is Bad" once again.

More waste of both oxygen and bandwidth.

ChristieAcres · #86 09/23/10, 10:27 PM

http://www.incredibleegg.org/egg-fac...nd-food-safety

The inside of an egg was once considered almost sterile. But, over recent years, the bacterium Salmonella enteritidis (Se) has been found inside a small number of eggs. Scientists estimate that, on average across the U.S., only 1 of every 20,000 eggs might contain the bacteria. So, the likelihood that an egg might contain Se is extremely small – 0.005% (five one-thousandths of one percent). At this rate, if you’re an average consumer, you might encounter a contaminated egg once every 84 years.

I'd say those were excellent odds! Makes me want to go whip up some eggnog and skip the cooking!

Now this went on to discuss bacteria on the outside of the egg, discussing washing them, and refrigerating them.

Hey, but I am still not worried about my eggs

I'd like to add, "Support your local small farmers and CSA's!"

Lazy J · #87 09/23/10, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

We only have (16) chickens, but ALL OF THEM are outside 90% of the time (sunrise to sunset),

Multipley that by several MILLION and you might have enough eggs to meet the demand of the US Consumer.

Bearfootfarm · #88 09/23/10, 10:37 PM

Quote:

it will go through the digestive tract, and so far I am unaware of any procaryotic organism that can survive a digestive tract.

Salmonella LIVES in the digestive tract

wyld thang · #89 09/24/10, 11:44 AM

I eat raw cookie dough and runny eggs.

Last week I sliced my knee pretty good on a sticking out rusty screw while gathering eggs in my neighbor's filthy chicken coop(which I also harvested some poop from my garden

). I cleaned it out and no infection since(and it's almost healed up to boot, it was at least 1/4" deep). Though I WAS concerned...that coop was nasty! Just sayin I don't take extreme measures to disinfect my world, and I dont' get sick or infected with stuff.

Anyways I think the issue is statistics and we are raising humans with inferior immune systems who can't handle "normal" environmental bacteria(as well as actually having good bacteria in the gut...), not that eggs are mysteriously more infected than ever before.

Statistics--statistically one's chances are very very low of even GETTING an infected egg, I'm sure one's chances of getting the flu are much higher, for instance. News reporting and the antibacterial product germaphobe culture makes people more paranoid. There's a lot more things to worry about out there, and if you cook your eggs and wash your hands you decrease your chances of getting sick even more. The average person has no grasp of statistics or probabilty. They hear one egg)or whatever) was infected and knee jerk assume ALL eggs(or whatever) grown in similar conditions are suspect. That ain't reality.

Totally agree with the health issue of we are too clean, as mentioned before. An example I can give is I grew up drinking(when camping, hiking) out of streams, springs, etc) I learned what kinds of conditions menat "reasonably" clean water. Never got giardia. I still do this, and have never got giardia. I read an article way back that suggested that maybe I indeed over the years been exposed to giardia(or whatever) and built up a resistance to it through exposure and having healthy balanced bacteria in me so bad bacteria doesn't have empty space to replicate willy nilly--I'm tolerant of it(could be--I won't say I "am" completely, that would be foolish). Again, I dont just suck down any water, but pick my watering holes.

IN the end, how many food poisoning cases can be actually chalked up to PEOPLE(cooks and eaters) who DON"T WASH THEIR HANDS AFTER GOING TO THE BATHROOM??? rather than actually contaminated food?

There was a report on the tv news a couple days ago how those reusable shopping bags get contaminated with ecoli and salmonella--I suppose people are putting in leaky meat packages in their bags? etc?

(blah blah blah

)

Patt · #90 09/24/10, 12:02 PM

It would be interesting if someone could do a study of people who are hyper vigilent about germs vs. those who aren't and actually see who has more illnesses.

Glad your knee healed up well WT, I can't count the number of times I have poked holes in myself here!

haypoint · #91 09/24/10, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

In response to haypoint -
I wanted to know if they washed their eggs. Conventional wisdom with farmers is to not wash eggs, since it can allow bacteria to enter. Our eggs never even require washing. Also, you paint the CAFO hens as having a good life - why, then, do they require antibiotics? How, also, is manure exposed of? And another thing... That hen that's scratching in cows pats... The bacteria isn't going to pass straight to the egg - it will go through the digestive tract, and so far I am unaware of any procaryotic organism that can survive a digestive tract.

I believe that this discussion is to provide information. I've given up trying to change anyone's mind.

While there may be a CAFO that puts antibiotic in their feed, most do not. That is just another one of those myths people use to spread their hate for successful large farmers.

If some hens do get sick, it is rare and then they are medicated as recommended by the local Vet. Medication is then added to their water. Generally it is a respiratory ailment, despite millions spent on air exchange climate control systems.

There may be operations that have manure pile up, but most of these big operations have conveyers that remove the manure, dry and pelletize it.
I'll assume you meant disposed of not exposed of.

Currently there is a "battle" within FDA and USDA on free range standards. Science says the greater the exposure to outside, the greater the exposure to potential pathogens. Placing their feed outside increases contamination, too. But simply creating an access to the outside isn't enough for some people, the hens must actually exit the buildings. Current standards just require the availability of outside access.

So this debate goes beyond our tiny forum. The recent event pushes the knee jerk reaction for more government intervention.

It is my understanding chickens can ingest salmonella and become contaminated, then occasionally slough off the bacteria through their reproductive tract.

How is it that you can believe that bacteria can't pass out of the digestive tract, yet you think antibacterial products will?

casusbelli · #92 09/24/10, 01:50 PM

JuliaAnn-
i thought that washing eggs shortened their storage life - by removing the natural coating. Sorta like not washing berries or tomatoes till you're ready to eat them, only more so, since eggs DO have a thin but protective coating.
What does everyone else do?
(Sorry if this strays from OP thread, but this thread was shredded long ago...)

ChristieAcres · #93 09/24/10, 02:31 PM

Quote:

casusbelli

...What does everyone else do?

We chose to wash our eggs due to our chickens not being so sanitary and quite a few rather dirty... Since we eat them quickly, rarely having them in the fridge for more than a few days (also sell our extra when less than a day old). My grandmother, who owned a 90 acre ranch, washed her eggs, and that was many years ago. Her reasoning made sense to me, although I am a bit curious about the natural coating issue. Still, I would be concerned about fecal matter on the outside, when I pick up the unwashed egg with my clean hands, crack it, and potentially contaminate what I am preparing. Not withstanding, I wouldn't consider my hands clean. That issue aside and Salmonella, being brought up?

http://www.incredibleegg.org/egg-fac...nd-food-safety

The inside of an egg was once considered almost sterile. But, over recent years, the bacterium Salmonella enteritidis (Se) has been found inside a small number of eggs. Scientists estimate that, on average across the U.S., only 1 of every 20,000 eggs might contain the bacteria. So, the likelihood that an egg might contain Se is extremely small – 0.005% (five one-thousandths of one percent). At this rate, if you’re an average consumer, you might encounter a contaminated egg once every 84 years.

So, Salmonella isn't really my concern. I have further reduced any possibility of me contracting Salmonellal, via exterior shell, by washing my eggs and cooking them thoroughly. My chances of winning the lottery aren't slim; zero since I don't buy lottery tickets (i.e. risk % given for Salmonella risk of raw washed eggs). Len, my DH, however, has eaten them raw his entire 54 years of life and has never been ill.

I respect it is rather a personal risk-based decision to wash or not wash, to eat raw or fully cooked. Wasn't that the question? Are your free range eggs safe? Both groups can answer yes, as that is their honest opinion, but the debate ensued going way off the topic into big AG vs little AG when this was about little AG, specifically OUR Free Range Eggs.

JuliaAnn · #94 09/24/10, 03:54 PM

I wash eggs I intend for us to eat because I don't want bacteria from the chicken's oviduct and/or chunks of poo (can we still say that now?) on eggs that are going to be put in my refrigerator. I don't like the thought of that in my refrigerator. I worked in a laboratory for nealry 10 years, and a basic 10% bleach solution will kill virtually all pathogens. Any bacteria that could possibly be inside the egg, in the white/yolk, will be killed when cooking.

ETA--almost forgot to mention about the shortening of shelf life of washed eggs---I've used eggs that had been in the refrigerator for 3 months, and they were fine. The whites were a bit thicker, which I attribute to them drying out somewhat, but they tasted fine, and we ate them all.

If you want to HATCH eggs, however, you should NOT wash OR disinfect with bleach. This removes a natural coating on the egg called the bloom, which helps keep eggs from drying out during incubation.

I know some people wash their eggs, some don't. I personally do, because I have advanced physical sciences degrees and I know what pathogens are possibly 'out there', and I choose not to risk any kind of infection, so I simply wash my eggs, and cook them thoroughly.

To me, it's a non-issue. It's just something I do, like washing my hands, washing our dirty bath towels, washing our dishes, etc. for general cleanliness.

We're lucky I guess, in that no one here likes runny egg yolks.

A funny---I was at a little country style store the other day buying a bag of chick grower, and on the counter was a jar of pickled eggs, and a hand-written sign on the jar said "Boneless Chicken Dinners 50 Cents Each". I laughed out loud.

TRAILRIDER · #95 09/24/10, 04:42 PM

I thought it was a pretty good article. And actually agree with most of it. Are my eggs safe? Absolutely. My hens free range all over the farm all day and go inside at night. They get top quality feed as well, and we never have any disease (for at least the past 10 years.) So I feel safe to say, yes.
You can't have security from the womb to the tomb as they say, but you do your best. Keeping your own hens, treating them well, is a very good start.

TRAILRIDER · #96 09/24/10, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casusbelli

JuliaAnn-
i thought that washing eggs shortened their storage life - by removing the natural coating. Sorta like not washing berries or tomatoes till you're ready to eat them, only more so, since eggs DO have a thin but protective coating.
What does everyone else do?
(Sorry if this strays from OP thread, but this thread was shredded long ago...)

I do believe you are correct, washing eggs does shorten the shelf life. But I won't put unwashed eggs in my fridge. Yuck : ( And usually they are gone in three days anyway.

sammyd · #97 09/24/10, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by springvalley

I often wonder why some people that are on HT, are on here. they never have a good thing to say about the back yard farmer or homesteader. Everything needs to be raised in confinment and under government testing and regulation. Heaven knows everything that comes from the super market is 100% safe for us and we should never question where it comes from or who grew it. After all if the USDA is keeping an eye on things it will all be ok. Sorry for the rant. >Thanks Marc

This is about the most self pitying thing I have seen.
What really happens is someone comes out with a small farms are so good and big farms need to go away slant. Some people come on and ask why are small farms better and usually have facts to back up that small isn't better always. Nobody says that small farms need to go away, most will agree that small farms have a place in society. Other folks feel that big farms have no place in society and will lie and mislead to try to prove that. When they are called out they cry to the moderators that they are being picked on and threads get shut down.
least that's how I've seen it played time and again....

Patt · #98 09/24/10, 07:57 PM

We don't wash ours here unless they are actually dirty which is rare since we change out the saw dust in the nesting boxes frequently. That has worked for us for the last 9 years.

Heritagefarm · #99 09/24/10, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

I believe that this discussion is to provide information. I've given up trying to change anyone's mind.

While there may be a CAFO that puts antibiotic in their feed, most do not. That is just another one of those myths people use to spread their hate for successful large farmers.

If some hens do get sick, it is rare and then they are medicated as recommended by the local Vet. Medication is then added to their water. Generally it is a respiratory ailment, despite millions spent on air exchange climate control systems.

There may be operations that have manure pile up, but most of these big operations have conveyers that remove the manure, dry and pelletize it.
I'll assume you meant disposed of not exposed of.

Currently there is a "battle" within FDA and USDA on free range standards. Science says the greater the exposure to outside, the greater the exposure to potential pathogens. Placing their feed outside increases contamination, too. But simply creating an access to the outside isn't enough for some people, the hens must actually exit the buildings. Current standards just require the availability of outside access.

So this debate goes beyond our tiny forum. The recent event pushes the knee jerk reaction for more government intervention.

It is my understanding chickens can ingest salmonella and become contaminated, then occasionally slough off the bacteria through their reproductive tract.

How is it that you can believe that bacteria can't pass out of the digestive tract, yet you think antibacterial products will?

Chickens may be more suited to the factory lifestyle than ruminants (cows), since they are omnivores. (I don't really care about pigs, don't plan on ever eating them.) I have also agreed that this is simply discussion and not an attempt to change someone's mind... Why hasn't everyone else realized this 6 locked topics ago?? Anyways, I still don't agree with a system that is unnatural and may require the use of antibiotics. Now, if an egg CAFO is as you describe - cooled, they have food and fresh water, and the ideal lifestyle, what would happen if the building was replaced with glass? Transparency is not something offered to the consumer when it comes to CAFOs. Why? Becuase simply looking at it is a tad... Well, let's just say it contradicts the pretty red barn on the package.
Now, about economics... It has been said within these topics that the CAFO is more efficient than a family farm... I don't really get that. In this case, we are talking about chickens - layers, specifically. On the ideal farms, we have

Insects (unwanted) + hens = eggs (wanted)

In the CAFO, we have

Building, shipping, water system, food system, probably employees, feed costs, air circulation systems, manure disposal and all those conveyor belts of eggs + chickens = eggs.

wyld thang · #**100** 09/24/10, 11:05 PM

it's SCALE