Are your free range eggs safe?

Patt · #41 09/23/10, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy J

I whole heartedly agree with you on this point, Patt. I am afraid we in the First World live in too clean an environment which doesn't build up our immune system, we are not as hardy as we once were partially because we don't stress our immune system as we once did. I am talking about vaccination against disease, rather, as you mentioned, the little things like low levels of bacteria in foods, eating dirt as a child, etc.

Jim

Good to see we agree on something!

I know part of our health is just genetic but our kids rarely had as many illnesses as their peers whose mothers were germaphobes. Science is slowly starting to back that up too.

Patt · #42 09/23/10, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Home grown spinach, homemade cheese, free range eggs (yes it sounds funny to me, too, but we all know what that entails), raw milk and home processed ground beef all SEEMS to be safer. But facts prove those feelings are false.

There are plenty of reasons I choose to raise much of my food. But to create food safety myths isn't on my "to do" list.

Just out of curiousity do you process your own meat or do you have someone else do it? And do you eat any of your eggs, milk, veggies raw or is it all heat treated too? I am just wondering since you have a completely different view on food safety from me how far that takes you.

I eat mine raw because I have faith that it is healthier, just wondered how much the opposite plays out for you.

Heritagefarm · #43 09/23/10, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

SEEMS, seems, seems.
That is the point I'm trying to make. Some folks have this unfounded belief that if they have happy chickens (I'll save the details of that myth for another thread) then their chickens will produce only healthy eggs.

Some believe that the backyard flocks are better cared for than those in large operations. I have seen that to be a lot of wishful thinking. In the real world, poultry diseases are passed around in small hobby farms. Check with your state's Department of Ag, Poultry division, see where the disease outbreaks are. In my state it is the backyard flocks, often people that have bought from several places, flea markets, county fairs, Craigslist, etc.

It would be a rare event that a commercially raised chicken was attacked by a raccoon, stray dog, hawk, owl, weasel, fox or coyote. Disease prevention, Bio-Security, is the norm at a commercial farm, but rare in a backyard flock.

The owner of a back yard flock doesn't have better control. The environment prohibits that. Back yard flocks do not get freshly fed and watered like commercial automated systems provide. Human nature proves this.

Many eggs bought in stores are old, some are very old. Fresh eggs are better. Chickens that produce more eggs lay eggs with reduced yoke color. Chickens that produce fewer eggs lay eggs with a more colorful yoke.

Home grown spinach, homemade cheese, free range eggs (yes it sounds funny to me, too, but we all know what that entails), raw milk and home processed ground beef all SEEMS to be safer. But facts prove those feelings are false.

There are plenty of reasons I choose to raise much of my food. But to create food safety myths isn't on my "to do" list.

Well, in response to the first part: It doesn't apply to all emotions (HAPPY CHICKENS!!) but it does to a certain degree.
Let's examine a cow that's under stress constantly. Is she going to perform optimally? No, because her body defenses are up, and she's devoting more and more energy to something other than food (milk). Ideally, your cows are happy - in respect of being contented. Any animal that is under stress is not going to perform optimally.

And, what are your reasons for raising your own food?

rambler · #44 09/23/10, 11:49 AM

Seems the problem with the big mega farm was that mice were in the area, dead critters were in the area, maggots were in the area, feed was not well controlled to be fresh.

And that was causing the problem.

But, now, doesn't that describe exactly what a free-range bird lives in about every day? They are free to check around for those very same conditions to live in, and frankly that seems to be their very favorite feeding areas.

So, if it's bad for the big farm, shouldn't the same be bad for the 'free range' eggs?

Myself, I think there is a lot more in common between the big & small farms, rather than differences.

I think we have the same problems and issues, and we suffer from the same anti-media efforts.

It's a shame some few like to pit the large & small against each other, when we actually share much the same problems if we remove the hype & sensationalism.

--->Paul

ChristieAcres · #45 09/23/10, 11:56 AM

Paul- you wrote:

Quote:

Seems the problem with the big mega farm was that mice were in the area, dead critters were in the area, maggots were in the area, feed was not well controlled to be fresh.

Our chickens free range in a pasture with an electric mesh fence around it. If not, they would be toast due to the wildlife here. That said, there are no live or dead mice (we have two cats & a dog who all kill mice), no dead critters, and I have never seen any maggots in their pasture or in their chicken house. I clean out the chicken house a few times/year. Also, we feed our chickens fresh food daily, which include their dry food, vegetables, bread, and a little cracked corn. I don't think the conditions here are anything like those in larger operations. That said, I am not into the debate, but I highly doubt most small farms allow the conditions listed above. Why compare at all?

poppy · #46 09/23/10, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Just out of curiousity do you process your own meat or do you have someone else do it? And do you eat any of your eggs, milk, veggies raw or is it all heat treated too? I am just wondering since you have a completely different view on food safety from me how far that takes you.

I eat mine raw because I have faith that it is healthier, just wondered how much the opposite plays out for you.

But the point is your raw veggies from your garden may contain EColi, Salmonella, or some other bug. I don't know anyone who sits up all night to see if any wild animals stop for a potty break in their garden. It isn't likely to happen but it is just as likely as in a mega farm. Watch the news reports of outbreaks. Often they will issue a recall because 50 or 100 people got sick from something but consider how many tens of thousands ate the same product from the same field or factory and had no problems at all.

Heritagefarm · #47 09/23/10, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

Seems the problem with the big mega farm was that mice were in the area, dead critters were in the area, maggots were in the area, feed was not well controlled to be fresh.

And that was causing the problem.

But, now, doesn't that describe exactly what a free-range bird lives in about every day? They are free to check around for those very same conditions to live in, and frankly that seems to be their very favorite feeding areas.

So, if it's bad for the big farm, shouldn't the same be bad for the 'free range' eggs?

Myself, I think there is a lot more in common between the big & small farms, rather than differences.

I think we have the same problems and issues, and we suffer from the same anti-media efforts.

It's a shame some few like to pit the large & small against each other, when we actually share much the same problems if we remove the hype & sensationalism.

--->Paul

I think the difference, is that the backyard chicken is exposed to it all the time, and will therefore develop natural immunity to it, whereas the CAFO chicken wouldn't.

Heritagefarm · #48 09/23/10, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poppy

But the point is your raw veggies from your garden may contain EColi, Salmonella, or some other bug. I don't know anyone who sits up all night to see if any wild animals stop for a potty break in their garden. It isn't likely to happen but it is just as likely as in a mega farm. Watch the news reports of outbreaks. Often they will issue a recall because 50 or 100 people got sick from something but consider how many tens of thousands ate the same product from the same field or factory and had no problems at all.

Conventional wisdom is to wash your food and cook it all the way.

MELOC · #49 09/23/10, 12:19 PM

no doubt. only the stubborn and the stupid can expect to eat raw foods and not risk getting sick. fire is what started the process of civilization and we should continue to use it.

Patt · #50 09/23/10, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MELOC

no doubt. only the stubborn and the stupid can expect to eat raw foods and not risk getting sick. fire is what started the process of civilization and we should continue to use it.

A lot of people live on a 100% raw foods diet today.

Bearfootfarm · #51 09/23/10, 12:48 PM

Quote:

A lot of people live on a 100% raw foods diet today.

And a lot get sick and die
What's your point?

haypoint · #52 09/23/10, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

Conventional wisdom is to wash your food and cook it all the way.

This comes from someone that promotes the sale of raw milk? LMAO

In another comment by the same person, only moments earlier, "I think the difference, is that the backyard chicken is exposed to it all the time, and will therefore develop natural immunity to it, whereas the CAFO chicken wouldn't.”

While I'm a believer in "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger", I'm not convinced exposure to bacteria and infectious diseases always or even generally creates immunity. Exposing your hens to salmonella might build a resistance or it might just result in an exposure that puts salmonella in every one of your eggs. Natural immunity isn't a sure thing.

lorichristie, it isn't fair to brag about the conditions that make you feel your chickens are healthier or better treated, then throw up your "I'm not in this debate" shield and expect protection. You are right most small farms don't have maggots and dead rats lying around. But, do you also understand that most mega-farms don't have those conditions either? In my experience, every poultry house with over a thousand birds has a Bio Security procedure to protect against all that contamination. Plus, I've seen some backyard flocks living in very poor conditions.

While, "Any animal that is under stress is not going to perform optimally." the point I'm trying to address is that animals in ideal conditions can carry diseases. Contented cattle do get mastitis. Happy hens do pass salmonella through their eggs.

Michael W. Smith · #53 09/23/10, 01:02 PM

I'd much rather eat an egg from a home flock where the chickens are allowed to get out and scratch and eat insects and worms rather than the "company" chicken that is crammed into a small cage with 4 or 5 sisters!

Your home chicken gets sunshine and to a certain extent can pick out it's own diet.
The "company" chicken can eat only what is put in front of it and chances are it's never even seen the sun.
While backyard flocks are susceptible to disease by wild birds coming in to eat their feed, I'll still stick with the back yard flock.

And at least with a backyard flock, you KNOW what conditions the eggs have been in. Most people collect their eggs everyday and get them in the fridge. The company may or may not collect all the eggs that day, but what conditions are they stored under? Are they actually in a fridge or left out in room tempature? And how long does it take for eggs to go from hen to store? Some of the eggs in the store might be over a month old by the time you buy them.

Patt · #54 09/23/10, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

And a lot get sick and die
What's your point?

Sure a lot of people get sick and die they just don't happen to be the ones on the raw food diet. Misdirection is your favorite isn't it?

Heritagefarm · #55 09/23/10, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

This comes from someone that promotes the sale of raw milk? LMAO

In another comment by the same person, only moments earlier, "I think the difference, is that the backyard chicken is exposed to it all the time, and will therefore develop natural immunity to it, whereas the CAFO chicken wouldn't.”

While I'm a believer in "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger", I'm not convinced exposure to bacteria and infectious diseases always or even generally creates immunity. Exposing your hens to salmonella might build a resistance or it might just result in an exposure that puts salmonella in every one of your eggs. Natural immunity isn't a sure thing.

lorichristie, it isn't fair to brag about the conditions that make you feel your chickens are healthier or better treated, then throw up your "I'm not in this debate" shield and expect protection. You are right most small farms don't have maggots and dead rats lying around. But, do you also understand that most mega-farms don't have those conditions either? In my experience, every poultry house with over a thousand birds has a Bio Security procedure to protect against all that contamination. Plus, I've seen some backyard flocks living in very poor conditions.

While, "Any animal that is under stress is not going to perform optimally." the point I'm trying to address is that animals in ideal conditions can carry diseases. Contented cattle do get mastitis. Happy hens do pass salmonella through their eggs.

Aren't commercial eggs washed?

And, most people on raw food diets are very healthy; that's an indisputable fact.

Heritagefarm · #56 09/23/10, 01:22 PM

It's starting to turn ugly in here. Keep it calm.

Allen W · #57 09/23/10, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MELOC

no doubt. only the stubborn and the stupid can expect to eat raw foods and not risk getting sick. fire is what started the process of civilization and we should continue to use it.

So you cook all of your fruits and vegetables before you eat them?

haypoint · #58 09/23/10, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Just out of curiousity do you process your own meat or do you have someone else do it? And do you eat any of your eggs, milk, veggies raw or is it all heat treated too? I am just wondering since you have a completely different view on food safety from me how far that takes you.

I eat mine raw because I have faith that it is healthier, just wondered how much the opposite plays out for you.

I'll respond under the presumption that you are interested in an answer and not just trying to provoke a fight.

Over the past 40 years, I have processed many pigs, chickens, ducks, geese, rabbits, cows, deer, lamb and loch for my family and myself. I have assisted many people in processing their livestock and wildlife.

I have always taken great care to do it in a sanitary way. Most times there have been compromises made due to the lack of equipment.

For many years, there was no place to take live animals for butchering. Livestock had to be home killed, gutted and skinned, then hauled 30 miles to the butcher. I doubt a side of warm beef wrapped in a plastic tarp, laying in the bed of a pickup truck would pass USDA requirements, but that was all we could do and no one got sick.

I've seen cows and pigs quartered with a hacksaw, hand saw, Skil saw and even a chain saw. I've cut venison steaks with a radial arm 12 inch table saw.

I've seen homesteaders struggle to be more self-sufficient and I've seen Yuppies pretend to be farmers by pouring uncalculated amounts of money into their hobby/addiction.

I take my livestock, live, to a small slaughterhouse an hour away. I prefer to eat meat grown on my farm. I prefer the butchering to be done by a person that has the tools and skills that are far better than most "homesteaders".

I have sold organic, free range eggs decades before free range was a sales gimmick. Now, I buy my eggs locally and I cook them. I cook my beef and pork, too.
I wash my locally grown vegetables and eat my strawberries and grapes without washing, no matter if they are local or from 2000 miles away. I don't recommend that, just how I do it.

When I was milking my Jersey, I owned a pasteurizer, but only used it for milk I was selling to neighbors, for my own protection. I fed raw milk to my family. But I wouldn't risk losing the farm in a lawsuit, so I didn't sell raw milk.

Faith is an interesting word. It is a belief in something that cannot be proven. Faith works fairly well for organized religion, but I can see where it wouldn't take you too far in food safety.

I do understand your position. Many years ago, I held some of those same beliefs. But I have discovered they are not factual. Heck, I once thought there was more nutrition in potato skins, carrot peels and bread crusts. I'm always surprised by the number of people that cling to those myths, too.

ChristieAcres · #59 09/23/10, 01:51 PM

Here is something that may help

After doing some research, I made my own informed decision, based on what I felt was best for me. The cell structure of raw food must be compromised in order to gain the nutrients inside. It starts with anything put on raw food (dressing, sauces, etc...). Most consider any sort of heat or oil added to be "cooking." Not my opinion, but what I read was considered... Quickly that begins to break down cell membrane. Then, saliva picks up and continues the process and it ends, with digestion (acid breaks down cell membranes). That acid largely breaks down almost all enzymes in fruit/veggies, with the main exceptions of Pineapple, Papaya, and Kiwi. They have been used to aid in digestion of meats for a very long time...

Juicing veggies accomplishes turning it into a more easily digestible form. There is still plenty of fiber, although the mastication process provides an end product containing all the fiber.

What I learned, also made complete sense to me. When food is cooked, the cell membranes are now compromised, allowing us to more easily digest, and absorb the nutrients. There had been a study done involving people eating carrots. The Beta Carotene levels were done, then one group was given raw carrots and the other group cooked carrots (all the same amounts). The 2nd group had much higher levels of Beta Carotene. Given the explanation aforementioned, this didn't surprise me.

So, I wash my organic fruits/veggies. I do eat my berries raw, but I saute' all other fruits (DH has a hard time eating raw fruit, due to his jaw being crushed in 1995). I prefer to steam my veggies. I make my own salad dressing and often heat it a bit to add to the lettuce mix, easier for Len to eat that way. Turns out, apparently, I get more nutrition that way.

To clarify, I am not posting this to debate, but expand a bit on raw food and cooked food, food for thought, so to speak...

I do believe raw vegetables are nutritious, but now believe you have to eat a lot more of them, to gain the same nutrition as cooked vegetables. The fact most who eat raw veggies, choose organic, also contributes to their health.

Drinking herbal infusions is a great way to get a lot of nutrition you can't in a typical cup of tea. Yes, I drink them every day. There are so many kinds, too! Yes, these are "cooked" due to boiling water poured over the herbs...

Funny, about animals, birds, and other critters... There is no way to tell if the fruit & veggies have been urinated upon or microscopic fecal matter is present... Best to wash without exception! I suppose we should be heating our berries for that reason...can't wash them without turning them to mush...

haypoint · #60 09/23/10, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

Aren't commercial eggs washed?

And, most people on raw food diets are very healthy; that's an indisputable fact.

You lost me on that one.
Yes, commercial eggs are washed, what's the point?

Please site you indisputable fact.

Most people on raw food diets don't eat meat. Correct? All the vegetarians I've met struggle with their diet. They devote much time and effort insuring that their caloric intake and protein amounts are optimal. Perhaps we all could benefit by controlling our intake. Maybe it is the fact that their food is raw, perhaps it is that they don't over consume and follow nutritional standards.

Anyone know of a study where two large groups of people ate raw foods only and the other group ate the same stuff, but cooked?

Staying off the cheesy fries is good advice, not just because it isn't a raw food. Raw or cooked, eating more whole fruits and vegetables is better than the processed junk most folks eat.

I don't want this discussion to get ugly. I don't want Patt mad, so let's steer back to the OP.