Your thoughts on zoning?
 

I live in a rural township. It has no zoning at all. I don't have any idea of the population. Oops. I just Googled it. Population as of the 2000 Census was approximately 2200 people. A few years ago there was a pretty heated debate as to whether there should be zoning. It was put on the ballot and failed. I am just curious as to what your thoughts are. I don't recall the issues real well. It seems like the township board did a lot of research and was considering a variety of options. Pretty much went the spectrum of no zoning to just a little zoning to strict zoning. I remember one of the statements being that the township is very unprotected from things like Wal-Mart just plopping down anywhere or having other undesirable things land in the township because there is no zoning to prevent it.

I know very little regarding the issue and as such I don't really have much opinion one way or the other. I am more just kind of curious. What are your thoughts on having zoning? And what sort of zoning do you support?

If it is a very basic zoning rules, it might be exceptable in my books. The biggest problem I have with zoning is that it just allows for bigger government, and the government is only happy when it is getting larger. We almost always end up paying more, and never see a benefit to the growth of government.

Zoning is simply a means for other people to control what you can do on your own land & vice versa. It also empowers the local government to control (via building permits) what is constructed in the entire township.

I also live in an unzoned area & wish it would stay that way forever. But I know that it is only a matter of time, until it is voted in. It is just another piece of freedom that we are slowly loosing across this country.

In my experience, zoning leads to more development, not less. ETA: This may be a self-selecting process, in that more populated areas have more attractive prospects for developers and developers want certain zoning to benefit their particular type of projects and so on. Truly rural areas may not have zoning because no one is interested in purchasing lots of land to develop anything. But I still say in most cases, zoning precedes increased development.

I too live in an area of no zoning, town about the same size as the OP's. I'd be happy if it never gets zoned, but then we're far enough out in the sticks that I don't foresee big business ever being much of a problem out here, lol.

I am for limited zoning. I have seen too many rural areas and great small towns ruined by the experience of a sudden boom in population. For instance, 20 years ago Gettysburg was a great place to visit and surrounded by beautiful farmland. Now it has become the Disneyland of Civil War sites.

Another thing, here in PA we have very fragile ecosystems. They need to be protected from pollution and abuse from landowners. Everybody is worried about the water supply with all this drilling going on.

Zoning doesn't necessarily lead to more urban development, rather it is often a reaction to urban development. This is most apparent when you find areas where you have to have a minimum amount of land in order to build (five acres, seven acres), as opposed simply for well and septic (1 acre).

Zoning is used to keep commercial development along the main drag, keeping shoppers off the gravel roads, and of course makes it easier to find commercial places. It's used to keep industrial areas away from residential neighborhoods and schools, keeping trucks out of downtown offering the services that those businesses need all in one area.

I like zoning if it reflects the desires of the population. Do you really want a shop that is painting cars right next door to you? Do you want the smell of gas in your neighborhood from the oil wells within fifty feet of your front door? There are 40 acres of woods behind me, the owners live out of state and refuse to sell. Fine with me. However, around the corner from me is a five acre site that now has a nice couple, a new mobile home and... an auto repair shop. Glad I'm separated from it by the woods.

I would want to be on any committee that is concerned with changing zoning laws to make sure it is set up to protect the rural area, rather than encourage big business at the expense of those wishing to live in a quiet rural area.

Interesting replies. I still don't really know how I feel about the issue. I do understand the less government part. I guess I kind of manage my own protection that zoning would provide. I am cognizant of where my property is, where my house is in relation to my property, stuff like that. I suppose something horrible could move in next to me that no amount of trees or landscaping could help. Seems like the risk of that happening, at least where I live, is minimal. Don't know. Looking forward to hearing from others.

People tend to be against zoning, as it can impede on thier own personal freedom.

They change their minds on zoning, however, when a corporation wants to build a 2 million hen house, or hog operation, next to their property.

It's critical to look at the more regional aspects of the situation and see how the lack of zoning can make your rural peaceful location a target for a lot of really undesirable activities. There are a lot of local "good ole boys" in these parts that ran the local municipalities for decades. In some of their little minds, ALL the problems were the result of "move-ins" trying to destroy the way of life they remember from long ago, and nobody was going to tell them what to do by "zoning" or any other technique. The problem is that the lawyers for the corporate waste management, chemical, concentrated animal production and other undesirable industries LOVE places with a hatred of zoning, and a board full of clueless bumpkins. In this area they attempted everything from toxic fill in abandon quarries, chemical repackaging facilities to landfills and even a private exotic car race track. The battle is a lot easier for an $800/hr lawyer who demands to see where zoning specifically prohibits raising tens of thousands of pigs? and the bumpkins say, "we don't believe in that thar zonin' nonsense. Everybody hates zoning till you neighbor starts build a 300' tall cell tower next to your house......... or the guy on the other side opens up a pay to ride motocross track. BTW, the track battle just ended in a local "zoning free" township.

I also live in a rural area. A few years back our township went through these same thoughts..the county actually. It was to keep at a point any large company, factory, or animal factory farm from building anywhere they choose. We were to look and see what our homes were zoned and if we wanted it change to say to what. such as..if you are listed as farm land, business area and so on...so if you are zoned farm land and want to be zoned for a business you voiced your thoughts. Nothng has been settled as of date. Of course, it can cause some problems. If you wanted to open a junk yard on your acres..you might not be able too...Good and bad in all things. I personally don't like zoning either..but if you look at the large companies buying cheap rural property and work with your county it might just help everyone all the way around. Hope this helps...

Zoning to keep factories out? I haven't personally seen a new factory built anywhere in the US in the last 15-20 years; a good chunk of built ones are empty. I've got 40 acres I would almost give to a company to build a factory if they were going to manufacture something in the US.

Lyra's right. We recently attended a community meeting concerning the Comprehensive Plan which is required by the state every 5 years.

I told Dh, "We have to go. We have no right to complain about any decisions they make if we haven't participated. So off we went to the ellementary school where it was held.

I'd heard the word "zoning" floating around and it's something I was dead set against, so that was something I wanted to air my views on.

Well, after seeing the slide show showing the population growth over the last few years and the projected growth for the next few years, I had to do some re-thinking. Our area is extremely rural and very beautiful. The tourist industry is really taking off and many of the tourists want to come back and move in. The main problem we have, is water. We are at the top of the watershed. There's no underground aquifier to tap into, it's all in fisures trapped within the rock. And all the water in the county runs out of the county, no rivers or creeks run in. During the drought a couple of years ago, many wells went dry and new ones had to be drilled. The bottom line is: there isn't enough water to support many more people. The other problem is, everyone wants to move here and build a house! They don't seem to realize that every house built chips away at the beauty they want to move here to look at, as well as the water supply.

So we ended up having to agree that some limited zoning is neccessary. It killed me to vote yes on that form but I think many others did too, because just about everyone there was there because they're concerned about growth, water and the fear that we will end up with big box stores popping up at the whim of city folks who don't want to drive 30 miles to town.

In the end my only suggestion was that maybe there could be some kind of incentive to encourage newcomers to consider buying an older, exisiting property rather than buying a couple of acres and planting down a new house - and drilling a new well.

Let me just get on my soap box here. Please, if you are in the dreaming stage of wanting to move to the country and start homesteading, don't immediately opt for buying land and building new, consider buying a nice old farm. Sure it won't be all shiny and perfect, but think about the cosequences of a house on every two acres. it doesn't take long for a place to start looking like the outskirts of town.

Pauline

Where do you get that Idea? From my understanding you live in one of the most robust ecosystems on the planet.:thumb:

Ive never seen any Zoneing that could keep those oil wells at bay. Have you?

Lot of places around here they are moving their city limits . First thing to go if you have one is your own well . Lots of bucks for water hook up then the sewer more bucks . Then gas hook up no wood burning in some city limits . Can't change your oil in your own drive either :grumble: Then they measure the hight of your grass . Then buy you a city sticker for each car and need a permit for everything under the sun . Everyone wants a pork chop with out the hog .:bouncy:

It's great when it works in your favor, it stinks when you feel it doesn't. The wealth of the working people of this country is mostly tied up in their home and land. Nothing can change the value of your land as quickly as what happens to the land next to it or close to it.

Someone mentioned water. The town near me has had water problems since I moved here 16 years ago. Since then the business that they've built more of then anything else has been car washes. Now for some reason the water problem is getting worse, hard to believe.

Just the word ZONING gets lots of folks shook up. It has been my experience that people think Zoning is just another way for someone to tell them what they can do.
Not so.
I live in a very rural area, lots of woods, lots of shore frontage. We have weak zoning. Everyone loves the rural atmosphere, but the Township is handing out land splits like candy. If everyone is allowed to chop their 40 acre parcel into 4 acre pieces, it won’t be rural anymore.
The idea of zoning is to create some order in the growth. You don’t want residential areas cropping up in agricultural areas. You don’t want commercial development mixed in with homes or schools. You don’t want a gravel pit on your property line. A thousand sow confinement operation across the street?

An area, where I once lived, has no zoning, and they almost had a 5,000,000 chicken egg factory on 5 acres. Without zoning a community cannot stop it. Then there was a solid waste place in New Jersey that was going to haul waste by rail to this community because they have a dump that is free to take garbage from anywhere, no zoning.

Zoning insures houses are not built too close to the road or on the side property line. Around here we had many tarpaper shacks that people build and then eventually lose interest and they become eyesores and a hazard. Zoning requires a living structure (house) has to be at least 700 square feet.

All the sewer, electrical and building code stuff isn’t part of it. It is to limit and control growth.

Your desire to do what you want on your property also allows for someone else to do what they want next to you. You will care when their actions causes your largest investment to drop in value.

Get zoning and be there when the rules are drawn up. Get protection from a 500 unit low income apartment next to your chicken coop.

A lot of zoning comes about compliments of your Federal Govt.

In order to qualify for federal flood insurance, the county must have a zoning ordinance in place, with the idea of control of building in flood zones ( height of first floor above certain elevations of known flood levels, etc ).

Once that door is opened, the rest usually follows.

AND this is the kind of thing zoning leads too...

County Sues Farmer, Cites Too Many Crops

If you have only one person in a township, then you don't need zoning. Around here, the Zoning Board of Appeals makes some pretty shifty "deals" in granting variances--why have zoning in the first place if a good ole boy can get the Appeals Board to approve his scheme anyway????

geo

Ive seldom seen a problem that Zoneing covers that isnt better addressed as a simple no tresspassing case. Yep Just keep your stink and ugly to yourself.

Edit: Sorry TnAndy, didn't see your post until I wrote this one.....



In general I like light zoning, to keep problem people away from each other.

For example someone here mentioned keeping a big hog barn out of the neighborhood. Or the other side, to keep a housing development away from good farm land and livestock areas. Nothing but trouble to have a bunch of houses pop up in the field next door. My county only allows one new house per 40 acres on land zoned agricultural.

Sometimes it goes way too far, such as this?

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2588197/posts

More to the story than this short clip, fella grows veggies, county said hhe grew too much for the zoning he is in, so he quit for a bit, county held off the lawsuit, he got his zoning changed and went back to growing, county decided to go back to suing him for the old issue.

--->Paul

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Your post reminded me of a situation that I have faced as a small business owner. I have found, especially with worker's compensation, that I am "forced" into doing things that go against my beliefs as it is a policy or requirement in order to manage things like unemployment insurance and worker's compensation. I have quickly realized how frequently people are made to do something just because it is attached to something else.

And this is the real reason for Zoning... It protects the people that wish to have dirty nasty things from tort... You see it's zoned as a huge hog farm. So yeah, it stinks. Or yeah, it's a zoned Industrial site so it looks like one. Instead of allowing tort suits and making the stinky clean up their mess.

I've only been in one very small city that had oil wells in one of the old neighborhoods, little things only a few feet high. They would have been created a long time ago. You can't do that anymore.

Allthough Zoneing would allow the use would it protect them from a lawsuit?

Id be extatic to have a large hog operation next door. The smell woudl send the city slickers back to suburbia, and Id have lots of manure for my land

I doubt Wal Mart would be a concern. 2,200 people in how many square miles?... is not likely to produce a Wal Mart any time soon, I would think. And whether you are zoned or not, don't think your city/county fathers wouldn't welcome a Wal Mart and more tax dollars anytime or any where. I think you'd have a better chance fighting a Wal Mart without zoning.

digApony

Yep, that is how I see it.

The other item is when a developer decides to move in and sell .25 acre plots and put up cheap housing, which are occupied by young families which have school age kids in 2-5 years.

The flip side is if you want to sell your land to a big place that wants to put up a huge hen house or pig farm or a couple thousand small houses, if you have zoning you can not do it.

I do not like zoning because as soon as you get it in then people start using it to control what their neighbors can and can not do. If you want control of the land around you then buy it.

Totally agree with Maura. I used to work in zoning and her post is spot on.

Keep in mind zoning is NOT building codes.

Generally yes. They could still get one filed against the offender. they will likely prevail. Remember a license is to do something you wouldn't normally be allowed to.

Highlands seems right on target to me. Example: Growing town of 7,000 had a major highway relocate in a large arc to the edge of town. Commerical folks that required traffic exposure made plans to move. City fathers and their friends quickly pushed through the first zoning laws that happened to prohibit half the new highway frontage from commerical use. Just happened that portion was owned mostly by working class and poor folks without connections. We all know who made a killing.

After decades in real estate, I've observed that zoning concepts are usually sold to the public using scare talk rather than facts. There is a good bit of that showing up on this thread...Glen

Fracking - It is a term that is quickly becoming familiar to people in NY, PA, and OH. This new drilling in the Marcellus Shale is doing a lot of damage. Not to mention that the drilling leases are being allowed in cities.

We do have robust ecosystems but a lot of outsiders don't realize that PA has a long history of problems with mine subsidence.

This is why I am definitely for zoning regulations. Our country also has issues with sewer and waste water being dumped in waterways. There has to be some form of zoning in order to protect ourselves and the environment.

IMHO, zoning means that you get to stand upon a very tall slippery hill and should expect to slide downward ..

Somebody starts talking about that proverbial giant hog farm..lets get a committee together & we'll ban hog farms..sounds good! Well, while we're at it, what about other commercial property which may come along? OK..throw in some zoning regulation for industrial parks..yeah, that's the ticket!..Hey! What about my neighbor who has all of those danged chickens..drives me crazy to hear them clucking..sure, we'll make a zoning rule that you have to have a minimum of 5 acres for chickens..But, my neighbor HAS 5 acres!..Oh, well, we'll make it..hmmmm..10 acres!

Now what about those folks down the road who have three cars in front of their house..I think that looks unsightly! Oh, and we need to regulate how tall grass can grow in front yards..and fences..oh yes, fences should only be 4 feet tall.
blah dee blah dee blah..By the time folks are finished, you have a bunch of zoning laws so heavy it'd kill a mule to transport them across town.

I hate zoning..hate it..hate it..and yes, if a bunch of fools with a midnight race track bought land next to me, I'd grin and bear it..might even ask to sell baked goods to the crowds!

I agree 100%. And zoning also helps keep out someone that might want to put in a few OLD Mobile homes, and those homes not only look bad, may even be in disrepair, things like that, but bring down the value of other homes around, and with low rent most of those old mobiles are rented to less desirable people, and with the drug problem this country has nobody needs the maybe's of having such people move into a a area. SOME Zoning is good for all concerned. Not only for the health and welfare of all concerned but the enjoyment of the area for all to enjoy and live without fear of having "bad" folks moving in.
So some zoning is necessary in this day in age. And zoning is not the same thing as building codes, and are treated differently.

Sensationalism at its best.
It isn’t about the City getting after a farmer for growing too many vegetables.
It is a guy in the city violating a known restriction. None of us know if the restriction on agriculture is a good thing or not. But this guy is growing a commercial sized vegetable patch and has employees hired to manage it.
After he was cited, he went and got them to allow the garden. But he still was in violation.
Look at it this way. If I get a speeding ticket for 45 in a 35, but later get the community authorities to change the speed limit to 35, do I still have to pay my speeding ticket. Of course I do. This guy violated the ordinance and he, if guilty, owes the fine.
It is all too easy for the news to comb back the facts and create a story that makes the elected officials look like the bad guys.

Doesn't work like that. My stink on your property isn't trespassing. My 5,000,000 hens on 2 acres across the road from you isn't tresspassing. Ever think what your farm would be worth if Or-Ida put in a 10 acre settling pond for rotting potatoes next door? I know, I've seen it happen. Your no tresspassing sign ain't going to save you, not by a long shot.

If the world worked that way, I'd agree with you. But, the value of my place, both what I paid for it and what it sells for sometime in the future hinges on what my neighbors decide to do with their property.
If I paid $100,000 for my farm and 160 acres and the neighbor opens up a 1000 hog confinement operation, I lose both the enjoyment of breathing fresh air and my largest investment drops in value.
Checkerboard development spoils a community. Unbridled growth does too.

Let's say someone decides to put in a 200 lot trailer park, Manufactured Home Community. Those trailers are not taxed like homes, just the developed park is taxed, as if no trailers existed. But once the park is filled, there are an extra 400 kids in your school. You want to pay for an additional school or let the school your kids go to fail? Plus all the extra traffic. You want all that dust or are you ready to hike up your taxes to pave the roads to the Trailer Park?

If there is a land use plan that keeps the high traffic commercial businesses in a general area, near the highway and prevents development in your quiet rural neighborhood, wouldn't you want zoning to insure managed growth?

I'm not talking about restrictions that require a review team to decide if the color you picked out for your house meets everyone's approval. That's crazy housing associations. I'm talking about zoning that establishes zones/areas for different types of growth.