For Those Living in Gas Well Drilling Areas

Plough or Pugh?

The lawsuit has nothing to due with the DEP or the EPA.

It's the typical guy who bought land and not the minerals.... He is a dope. He hates the fact that they could drill and him not get paid. Well he should have read the deed.

Pugh .

I agree, brine moving thousands of feet upward along a casing and contaminating an aquifer is unlikely, and not hard to prove. Isotopic and other analysis of the water would clearly show the source of contamination, and it would not be that difficult to pursue.

The film talked about is mainly sensationalism and intentionally doesn't go into depth that could be done to prove a case rather than simply provide anecdote. It's a scare film.

The case I had experience with was not anecdotal, water testing and treatment was my business, and it was quite clear brine from this oil/gas field that was first under production in the 1930's, now used to dispose of brine into the old wells, was leaking into the aquifer... Both strength of brine close to the field, lessening of strength the farther away from the field you tested, as well as consistent spreading pattern over 2 years made it clear.

Especially given that there are three water table depths in the county, 30ft, 120-150ft, and 400-500ft, each of which is in sand separated by fairly impermeable levels, and only the 120-150ft water table was affected. This would tend to rule out natural upwelling of brine from lower levels.

I tested 5-10 wells a day over a wide area, and I remember the first well I saw with the issue, right across the road from the old oil field. And it was the nastiest water I ever saw. Several times saltier than sea water. Told the guy there's nothing you can do, drill to the 500ft level and hope for the best. He did and all was good for him.

Over 24 months wells extending out from that point in 3 directions started going salty, at a rate consistent enough that after a year I could predict when customers wells in that water table would go salty ahead of time and predict the speed of the area of contamination..

The water well drillers were having a field day, as the deeper 500ft level was nice clean water.

Did it go to court? Dunno, can't find evidence of it. One day I'll go back down there and ask.

That kind of stuff can and does happen.

Had one about 4 blocks away.. They are temporary, work 24 hours a day until the well is drilled, and then are moved to the next drill site..

It's not like the drilling rig is permanent...

Not always that simple...

I just closed on a property recently... Nothing concerning mineral rights in the title search or deed description..

After talking to the title company, I'll have to independently hire an attorney to do a mineral rights search to find out when the mineral rights were separated, and what surface rights if any went with them.

That is if they were separated, which I believe they were back in the 1970's. If I own mineral rights I will be very surprised.

I agree that addendums are key, however the Gas companies are done giving anything in many places of PA, because most of the land was gotten with boilerplate leases for very little money. We are one of the very few not leased in SE Tioga County. We have under 20 acres, so we were passed over until late summer 2008 & then things fell out. Have been dealing with 3 companies since December & I can get a decent amount of bonus & royalty from one, but next to NO protections. The other 2 offer the very little.

It is also true that it is temporary, however 10-40 years "temporary" is more than my lifetime. In some places the truck traffic is unbearable. I am happy for residents that do benefit from this, but the place will never be the same again in my lifetime. I also question the constant talk of jobs for so many locals. It seems most of the workers are from out of state. Housing is an issue & much of the real estate sales have stalled.

Our state government is looking for the tax money & really doesn't care about protecting the landowners. It would be great if this drilling would make the USA more independent, but I have heard about them wanting to export some of it. I always told my sons that someday Tioga would be trashed just like Berks County. Now I am afraid I may have been right. I hope that NC PA stays as beautiful as it is, but I have my doubts. JMHO

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Cindy in PA

Ah, I see so you say show me a lawsuit and I show you one and as usual for people who really have no grounds for their argument you say well that doesn't count because I say so. Right......

Lawyers are all over it:
http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/ove...uring_fracking

20 acres could provide you with a great retirement. 12 dollars a day per acre for 30 years is good money. no?

Real estate has "stalled" all over the country. In fact most places it has declined 30%. I know that's not the case.
The gas companies are trying to hire locals. Most folks here don't want to work the crazy shifts. But it's changing.
Fast Eddie wants the money... Who is surprised? Maybe Tioga will be saved from suburban sprawl. I know of know one who has broken up a farm in the last 3 years in my area, no farm auctions, etc. I hope the gas money allows this to continue.

I here the gas company I'm leased with wants to export it. I really hate the idea of it. But there is little I can do. They want to sell it to the ANTI'S in NY and NJ. I say let them freeze in winter.

I didn't ask about a lawsuit... I know of several. The root of the issue is severed mineral rights for the most part. I'm also sure his land got some junk on it. But I'm also sure it's not nearly as bad as he is claiming. Spilling a little oil when you change the oil in your car could require a million dollar clean up. One has to put stuff in perspective.

I've seen some doozies in the addendums and in the lease itself, but nothing close to what your saying... I'd love to see one of these leases, could you email me a copy or post it somewhere so I could take a peek at it. Or just scan, copy and paste it here.

Haven't got a clue what section you might be talking about, but if it's actually drilling on someone's land, all you have to do is have a "no occupancy clause" put in the lease.

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

Stan, Actually yes, real estate has stalled just about everywhere but here in upstate NY it hasn't taken THAT big of a hit. In my own research for a property, I have monitored the CNY real estate market intensively, every single day, for over 5 years and feel very comfortable saying that I probably know the market there as well as (if not better than some) of the agents in that area.

Since the gas leasing thing happened the market there has basically driven off a cliff for any property with land to it. Unless, of course, you don't want the mineral/gas rights with proceeds being retained by former owner on some. Or unless of course you wish to live next to all the state land that has been leased where lots of drilling will be going on. I guess that doesn't bother some but generally from what I've seen in the local RE market and also from talking with many agents in that area, the market HAS been severely negatively impacted by the gas leasing and most people are neither listing or buying.

Well, the Pugh clause is pretty common... but there's also a "plough clause" in most old leases... all lines had to be x feet under the ground, well below the plough line.

Then, you have the rarest of birds (no oil company will talk about) the Vertical Pugh Clause. After the primary term of the lease is up, if they drilled a well, all depths 100' below the producing formation is now released back to the mineral owner, and available for leasing again. Some of my clients learned about the Vertical Pugh a few years back. They've made small fortunes because of that one clause. My best client just got 500K because she had a Vertical Pugh, all the other mineral owners in the unit are SOL, as their tracts are Held By Production.

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

How many of you live close to where drilling is going on? How many of the companies are doing what they should to protect our lands? I have a what used to be a nice little stream across the road and about a hundred ft from the road. There was at the time old wells here that was still producing. The kids all up and down this stream fished and played in it and caught fish and crayfish. Then came the todays drillers and now there isn't a fish to be found in this stream. I personally tried to get people from the EPA out to check the stream when it was noticed that fish were dying and an oily film was on the water. Can you guess how many EPA people came out? Today I wouldn't let a kid of mine wade in this stream or would I let a dog drink from it. NO I am not against drilling I am against drilling ruining our lands. I have not seen a well head here anywhere that is fenced in with a nice gravel road going to it. Most of them have a bare dirt 4wheeler path going to them. I can't prove where the things came from that killed this little stream but the drilling is the ONLY thing different. Sam

2 wells withing a mile. Many more are permitted.

Having lived in PA all my life, I can say it is in one's best interest to look at our state's Department of Environmental Prostitution, and their willingness to enforce reguations, with a skeptical eye. One thing you can always count on, the companies that stand to make a boat load of money at the expense of the locals and the environment will most certainly make their boat load of money. Politicians are bought and sold.

I live in an area that, years after the mining industry left, still bears the scars. I feel sorry for you folks that live in the area affected by the gas drilling who actually value your land over a quick buck (or several thousand bucks). I hope, for your sakes, the rosy picture the supporters paint is what comes to pass.

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Anne
Give me a sweet home set among the trees,
With friends whose words are ever kind and true.
-Phoebe Carey-

LONE PINE FARM
Barnesville, PA
Boer goats, Angora goats, Eclectic mix of poultry

Imho, atv's and 4wheelers do more damage than gas wells. Around here, quite a few atv's have snorkels... they have no thought about the stream ecology, or what emissions (oil, gas, greases, etc.) are getting into the fouled up stream.

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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

Your right Texican, I have both.

Min. depth for pipes is 3 ft. They have to double dig as well. Top soil one side, hard pan the other. Pugh only for non production areas. Not vertical. They just wouldn't go for it.

Until the deep haynesville/bossier shale discovery, lessors could care less about vertical pugh addendums... hey, there's nothing below 12,000', so sure, if you want a vertical pugh clause, fine. And then, the deep shale was discovered, and all of a sudden, the vp holders make a fortune. They're going to 20K deep hereabouts... who knows, their might be a formation below this...

__________________
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming