commercial compost and persistent herbicides
 

Many people think their commercial compost is great because stuff is doing better with it than their stuff did with cement-like dirt. That compost probably has persistent herbicides in it that is stunting plant growth. But the only way to know for sure is to grow a bunch of plants next to same species/variety plants that are grown in compost that definitely doesn't have it.

your evidence for the "probably has persistent herbicides in it that is stunting plant growth" is...? I'm speaking of research, numbers, verifiable facts...not just opinions. If you have such, great. Bring it on. I'll read any research that helps clean up the environment.

I read awhile back about people having problems with using hay that came from pastures that had been sprayed with herbicides. Have to look for the article when I get a minute but it is a real problem. :)

End result to the grower aside, composting is still, by far, the best way to remediate chemically contaminated produce, ag products, hay, etc. The heat and microbial action in compost will neutralize herbicides and pesticides to a large degree.

That said, I will always prefer my own blend of compost to any commercially manufactured version.

Bottom line...... the crap that is manufactured and wasted in this country that can be composted NEEDS to be composted...... and then that compost needs to be used.
The day will come soon enough when none of us will be too good to use it in OUR OWN back yards. What better way to raise awareness of the problem than by taking responsibility for it ?

forerunner,

While composting will break down many pesticides, it does almost nothing to these persistent herbicides.

Picloram, clopyralid and aminopyralid do not break down by composting or by passing through a ruminant. Prolonged UV exposure does help in breaking these down, but this does almost nothing when the herbicide is in the soil, in compost, in hay, straw, woody material or in manure.

Most sprays used today break cdown fairly quickly.

The few exceptions left are broadleaf killers used in hay fields and some road ditchs, such as Milestone (and others - the active ingrediants aminopyralid, clopyralid, fluroxypyr, picloram, and triclopyr). These areas are in permanant grass, and so a very long-lasting broadleaf killer is not a problem _there_.

Those few sprays can last up to 24 months or so, especially on delicate plants like tomatoes. So it is an issue to take the hay from treated fields and use it as multch in a garden area.

Most sprays used in grain production do not have that long-lasting issue, and break down in days or months. One does not see this effect from corn, soybean, etc. multch.

--->Paul

I've not come across that in my reading.
Do you have a link or other source ?

I tend to agree with Joe Jenkins in that composting will cure just about everything with the one exception of chlorine.

If you want, the whole community of bellingham is being torn up with this.

Many cities/towns have been through this. This is not a new problem, it has been around for years.

In the video, do you not see a pile of compost that has been sitting there for three months and has nothing growing out of it but grass?

About nine years ago I did all the stuff with all the studies and did my own bio-assays and on and on and on .... I'm tired of it.

As for "composting will cure just about everything with the one exception of chlorine" - there are LOTS of other things that composting will not get rid of. Arsenic being one. Lead is another.

paul,
when you say "composting", do you mean "hot composting" at 150 degrees with thermophilic bacteria? or do you just mean "letting it sit to rot slowly" at lower temps? and does that impact the longevity of the herbicides you're talking about?

from reading other forerunner threads, i'm pretty sure when he says "composting", he really means "hot composting", which in my limited understanding kills/transforms a bunch more things than the cooler temp composting would.

--sgl

It is true that hot composting (why settle for 150? Many composters get 160, or sometimes a little over) will break down a lot of pesticides and other things. It also sterlizes seeds and does lots of other amazing things. But it has little to no effect on these persistent herbicides. That is why they still exits in professionally composted compost.

The folks in this video are saying "aminopyralid" instead of "some herbicide" for a reason. It has been tested and it is in their local media.

This link says that clopyralid, picloram and tryclopyr2 don't degrade in compost:

http://www2.epa.nsw.gov.au/resources...Compost_FS.pdf

I very much disagree. The only way to know for sure is to have the compost analyzed for chemical content.

What exactly are you calling commercial compost? Compost sold in bags in stores? Municipal yard wastes that have been composted and made available to the public? Or ?????

What I'm getting at is where are all of those chemicals coming from that are in the compost?

As to they video telling that no broadleaf weeds are growing in the compost---if it is a commercial compost as is what this thread is about, one would expect that it to have been made properly and in large quantities since commercial, thus with a hot compost system. That would mean that a large number of the weed seeds would no longer be viable. NRCS addresses hot composting and weed seed here: http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/feature/backyard/compost.html

I would expect a city the size of Bellingham to have proper compost handling and working equipment meaning the piles are turned/worked frequently and built with much green matter meaning a good carbon/nitrogen ratio meaning a hot composting system.

When you did the bio-assays a few years ago what or how many ppm were you finding were objectionable chemicals? Do you remember or have notes that tells of which chemicals you were finding back then?

The tests can barely register levels that will kill broadleaf plants. The tests are not able to test levels that stunt the growth.

So while you disagree with me, I disagree with you. :)

Compost that is sold.

Herbicide manufacturers. People buy it and put it on their lawns or grain crops. The lawn waste goest to the composter. The hay/straw/manure goes to the composter.

I assume that what you are trying to say is that any weed seed in the compost would be non-viable. The weeds we were talking about would have been brought to the bare soil by wind and birds, etc.

That's not how a bio assay works.

I've not known Paul to be argumentative for the sake of ongoing confrontation, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and just believe his representation of his own experience.
The material I've been getting from Canton is pretty much guaranteed to have some yard herbicides in it. Same with some of the ag waste I pick up around here, though not many in this area spray their hay fields.

All of my material gets dumped in the same areas and pushed up/mixed together in the same piles. I have a generous blend of grass clippings, leaves, older compost, manure, corn stalks, sawdust, wood chips and dead livestock.
My piles are sporting two varieties of amaranth... lambsquarter, purslane, jimsonweed, velvetleaf, buckwheat, sunflowers, tumbleweed, various volunteer corn, squash, gourds, etc. Keep in mind, my piles thus mentioned are fresh.
My oldest working pile is an absolute jungle.
I knock the foliage down with a small dozer and reincorporate the material every few weeks.
The pushed up piles that the city of Canton has been digging out of the archives for me are FULL of quite thriving lambsquarter, amaranth, smartweed, jimsonweed, sunflowers, gourds, pumpkins, corn, milo, sorghum, tomatoes, etc.

There is zero evidence of any stunting going on that I can determine.
Then again, maybe the strongly evidenced outlandish fertility that I'm experiencing is really a ---- poor representation of what could be if there were no herbicides in my compost.:shrug:

Why not just stay in line with USDA ORGANIC?

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...1.9.32.2.342.6

Even compost has its definitions--mainly, anything synthetic is simply disallowed, with very few exceptions, and they are spelled out.

OMRI generic lists for "compost" will give you the rules sections that apply:

http://www.omri.org/simple-gml-search/results/compost

Those selling or processing products can only use the word "organic" if they are certified USDA ORGANIC--anyone else can use organic, and it could mean a host of things like those that have been discussed in this thread. If you can live with USDA ORGANIC, seems to me to be the way to go. Otherwise, we're always talking apples and oranges.

geo

Actual data is scarce or limited and what is out there can be dated.

Clopyralid and Other Pesticides in Composts

I get a lot of yardwaste materials so I am positive I get chemicals. I compost at high temperatures and cure for a long period. Nothing leaves my farm before it is at least a year old and in most cases it's close to two years old. I still can't guarantee there is zero residual chemicals but I'm confident my compost won't hurt anything.

Lloyd

Lloyd J.

Thanks for the OSU Bulletin. I should be slightly concerned about the straw I buy and some of the horse manure I get, huh? That's about the only outside material I get for my garden.

geo

The herbicides paul is talking about are long term residual type herbicides used for weed control on pasture, hay and range land. Some have warnings on them about feeding the hay or pasturing cattle with out a with drawl period on susceptible crops. I don't know if they are used in residential areas or not.

If a person talks to the farmer when they get materials, it costs nothing to ask what sprays were used but if he bought the feed he may not even know.

Minnesota has a bulletin out and at the very end it has two companies mentioned that can test soil for clopyralid down to 1 PPB, maybe they can test compost as well?

Use Caution When Harvesting and Feeding Ditch Hay

I feel pretty secure that I don't get any garden or yard trimmings that have this stuff and I don't do manures but it's a good idea to be aware of the issue.

Lloyd

Sweet! A little faith!

Consider that you might have 8 units of plant happiness and 3 units of plant sadness. So, overall, your plants are happier, but they are taking up the chemical. If you don't care if there are chemicals in your stuff, then you're fine. OTOH: if you want 8 units of plant happines and 0 units of plant sadness, plus you don't want chemicals in your food ....

Just to refresh: This is a real issue, I agree.

But it is fairly rare - only a couple of herbicides cause this problem, and they are for long-term control of Canadian Thistle especially, as well as other persistant broadleaf weeds.

These are not the common sprays used on cropland all over, but very specialized sprays that cost a lot, and are only used if really needed.

As in, kinda rare stuff.

If you get some, well then it's an issue.

But it's pretty uncommon to get some to start with.

If used, this type of spray is generally spot sprayed on the problem weed patches, and not the whole field. So - it remains a rather small issue, tho a serious one if you come across it.

Did that town spray all of it's road ditches to try to get rid of some problematic broadleaf weed? It is odd for this to be a town-wide problem, as you seem to be saying a whole town has some issues with this?

Stinger is one brand name of spray; I believe Hi-Dep also has some in it.

--->Paul

Nearly ALL commercial composts have persistent herbicides in them. Only a small percentage have enough to kill your garden. All the rest have enough to make your garden plants sickly or stunted. How much persistent herbicide is in it determines how sickly or stunted.

This isn't just some rumor I'm passing along. This is research I did intensively nine years ago followed by bits and bobs collected since. I've interviewed at least three people that either own or work for the professional composters. I've interviewed the people doing the analysis on the compost. I have interviewed several extension agents. I've read dozens of articles and several white papers. I've talked to hundreds of farmers and gardeners about it.

Because of this I have not purchased commercial compost in nine years.

I now get invited to visit a lot of farms and gardens and when I was in bellingham, a lot of the places I visted were hit with this so bad that it was either wiping out their crops/gardens, or it was severely stunting them.

I thought this made for an excellent video. Frankly I am shocked at how people choose to not see the reality that is laid before them.

I wish I could more thoroughly express to everyone here the reality that is set before ME. I'm using anything and everything available to me to make compost and seeing nothing but huge, healthy plants as a result.

I'm not sure what the real purpose of this thread is other than to scare folks off from "commercial compost".
Big oil and the pharmaceuticals did that to Ehrenfried Pfeiffer's municipal operations back in the fifties, and compost has yet to recoup it's proper place in agriculture.

Shall we just resign ourselves to Miracle Grow and the likes of 10-10-10?

Frankly, I am shocked that a renowned permaculturist is making such negative blanket statements about commercial compost.
Maybe we should further define "commercial" compost.

I'm trying to remain objective, here.

Rambler gave what appeared to be an accurate representation of the small scope of the problem of persistent herbicides.
Where is all of this negativity really coming from ?

What would you have us do, Paul ?

I choose to not buy commercial compost.

When needing organic matter, I think the first thing to do is to stop trucking off organic matter. All of those branches, twigs, weeds, etc. are all excellent organic matter. Hugelkultur is one of the things I like the most.

Next up is to grow my own organic matter. There are lots things that are excellent at creating biomass in short order.

After these two, if I still want to bring in organic matter, it can be done, but it is about 20 times harder than just going out and buying commercial compost. Although, if I do it right, it could end up better and cheaper.

The obvious path is certified organic straw or organic hay. To get certified, their fields had to be herbicide free for three years. But I have to ask if they brought in anything that could be tainted with herbicides.

I tend to go for bales of moldy alfalfa. Most alfalfa growers don't fertilize it or spray it with anything. And I can usually get the moldy stuff for free.

OK..... I see where you're going with this.

I agree with your approach to sustainability.
Here is where we differ, and that only for now, for the day will come when bringing organic matter in from elsewhere will cease.

I started with clay and sand. It grew prairie grass and dewberries, maybe an occasional staghorn sumac. My goal is to have 18 inches or more of black topsoil on this humble acreage before the hammer falls.
From my efforts thus far, I have had the pleasure of witnessing some of the absolute richest, dark greenest, thick, tall and overwhelming natural growth along with some volunteer buckwheat this last summer..... a taste of what can be in re growing one's own biomass. It was a chore discing that green manure in with a heavy disc and 150 horses, not that I minded. The stuff was four feet tall in a matter of a few short weeks, and thick as carpet.

My focus has certainly been on extreme composting with material gleaned from off the farm. (I refuse to buy commercial compost. :) )
I doubt we'll have the time, but it would be interesting to see what could be done with an extreme version of green manuring over the course of time that I've devoted to making compost.

Inch for inch of finished topsoil, I'd like to see which really would be the less energy intensive between the two concepts.

I think what both of you have to say is important, I think it sort of applies to 2 different groups though. :)

We do all our own composting here too and so far have never had to buy any to suppliment. We also grow a huge market garden that is a big chunk of our yearly income. If I didn't have my own source for stuff to compost I would be reading Mr. Wheaton's post with great concern because buying just one load of compost to put on my garden that stunted or killed it could literally ruin us for a year.

So to me the info on the possibility of contaminated compost is just another factor in the equation for the choices we all make in our farming/gardening. Can we afford the risk of buying commercial compost? Or is it better to avoid it entirely? What you are doing with it will change that risk factor's level quite a bit.

When you were doing your research, did you ask about the sources of the material that was being used for the commercial compost? Percentages of lawn clippings and percentages of horse manure? It would be interesting to see those numbers.

I was told that it was coming from many sources: lawn clippings, manure, branches and wood chips, leaves ... the more they told me, the more depressing it got.

I remember I was working on a bigger project and could really use organic matter and somebody told me about this guy that was starting up a new composting operation and was super picky about his sources. At the time, the big herbicide was clopyralid (before its use was restricted because of these very problems). He told me that he had personally tested all of the commercial composts in the area and found that they ALL had traces of clopyralid - which is why he decided to start his own composting operation that would be free of clopyralid. But he was a couple of months into it and now his own compost was tainted too - after he tried so hard to have zero clopyralid.

Depressing.

we are very fortunate to have a really clean line of compost in Michigan that is sold commercially, called Dairy Doo..so far no problems with it..you can go to Dairydoo.com and read about it..i had gotten it 3 times now and have been very pleased.

Every region is a little different.

'Here' they often spray herbicide once to get the young fields cleaner. Then you are correct - very little herbicide is used. Tho out western USA they sell to very picky markets, and need very clean fields. As well in the dry heat the alfalfa goes dormant at times and the weeds do not. So - they spray herbicides on alfalfa fairly often, yearly anyhow.

Fertilizer is very important. Alfalfa uses a lot of P, makes it's own N, and needs some K. Typically one puts down a 3 year ration on P & K. Many have started sparying liud fertilizers after the first cutting, it really responds to the foliar application, with some micros in it as well.

The last 10 years, unfortunatly bugs have really come & attacked alfalfa. Leaf hoppers, aphids, and others. Become a real issue. On average the alfalfa fields get sprayed once a year for bugs. Sometimes maybe not at all; sometimes 3 passes in a year. Depends on the weather as to how the bugs go.

None of these sprays would present a long-term hazard, tho certainly are not in the spirtit of an organic operation.

I think this illistrates how your local conditions are very different from other areas. Be careful applying your local situation to the whole country. 'Here' with glyphosate use on grain crops and not much pasture left, very little of those Stinger, Mukestine, etc sprays are used. Here there is very little problem with residue in compost.

If we start talking about the sky falling, we better be up on our facts, clear on what we are saying, and apply our words to the areas they apply to.

I understand now what you are talking about; but it took some time to figure it out, who it applies to, etc.

If you want to post warnings, that is cool. But you could be a little clearer that it is a 'here & there' problem, not a nation-wide problem. And that it is only certian pesticides that cause problems.

Your intial messages were a little vague I thought. "The sky is falling, we can't use compost any more ever" is kinda how I read them. That seems contrary to sustainable farming...... I don't mean to put words in your mouth; that's just how it seemed...

Still, you have a valid point, and persistant herbicides can certainly be a problem especially for tender garden plants. It is good to consider & be careful of the situation. Your concern & warnings are valid, but not so widespread as you seem to make them?

This very topic was discussed a couple months ago on a 'big bad ugly corporate farmers' web site, with much the same feelings you have - we need to be careful of what we are doing, and read the labels, and consider what we are doing.

--->Paul

Just a data point here. No arguments, no chem analysis, just an experience. Bought a couple of bags of the big box home store (starts with L) bagged cow manure this spring, and used it as an amendment for starting some plants in the garden. Every one of them failed, while the plants in unamended soil did fine. Dunno what caused it or why, but I ain't buying THAT again.

I would suspect that lawn clippings and horse and dairy manure were the primary sources of the persistant herbicide residues.

Lawn clippings from the larger urban/metro areas most likely the most suspect as those people want a picture perfect lawn.

Here in the south central U.S., horse quality or dairy quality grass hay is expected to be weed free. That is why it brings a premium price. For that reason, I would avoid manure from equine facilities and dairys. If manure was desired/needed, my choice would be to check with livestock auction facilities. The possibility of contaminated manure would be there, but at a lesser level than from the previously mentioned sources.

From what I've read, these pesticides are not indestructible, they are just very long lasting. Research seems to be ongoing and like anything else information is subject to change. My stance, be aware, but don't :run:. But then I'm not an organic grower.

Lloyd

I had a similar experience this year with bagged cow manure from "L" home store. All my squash and melons planted with a lot of it grew some and then died, while peppers planted with just a handful are doing OK but not great. Can't be sure it was the compost, but I will definitely be more careful about my sources for compost and composting materials now.

BTW I never post, but I read just about everything posted by Paul and Forerunner. Both of you guys provide a lot of good information and thought starters.

gee, maybe i wasnt so crazy after all being concerned with bringing in tons of outside mass for composting...

great info paul, keep it coming.

You will never find much of anything growing in or on a cow manure pile. It's too alkaline. Simply drying and bagging it will not significantly reduce the pH. Another example of when too much of something good may not be a good thing.

Martin

Squash loves the stuff though. Black Kow would make 'em send vines to Canada. This stuff was obviously NOT all cow poo, but scrapings. I noticed sand and lots of minimally decomposed bedding sawdust mixed in when I was using it.

As for regionality: this is pretty global. Today I received an email from ATTRA pointing out some stuff in virginia. Yesterday I was told about how the problem is getting out of hand in england.

As for the sky falling: is that to suggest that I am exaggerating about something? Could you please point out where I may have exaggerated?

I'll grant that most people don't care if they eat pesticides. This message is not for those people. This message is for those people that want to not eat pesticides.

This is also for those people that want to have healthier crops: broadleaf crops will do better with soils that do not contain even trace levels of persistent herbicides.

Care to share the details? We had problems with compost from Virginia a couple of years ago - I would love to know if this is the same place.

The Rodales books that I have read, along with Joseph Jenkins rendition on the subject, indicate that compost "binds" heavy metals, thus making them far less available for plant uptake.
Jenkins goes on to list a number of really nasty materials that hot composting neutralizes by what I consider to be very high percentages.
EPA has recently begun to admit to and utilize the positive effects of hot composting on many hazardous wastes.

The notion is not original with me, though I am rather happy to hear/read from the experts that compost is the universal remediator of most things evil.