Property line and trees.

||Downhome|| · #41 07/27/10, 05:05 PM

adverse possession is a tricky thing, some places do not honor it others do.
easy way to avoid it is not to allow any use of your property by another and if that is not possiable in many cases by granting permission removes any and all claim to adverse possession

heres a interesting read

http://www.ohiopracticalbusinesslaw....ood-neighbors/

Danaus29 · #42 07/27/10, 05:22 PM

Thank you for the article, Downhome. I have some landscaping to remove this fall.

mekasmom · #43 07/27/10, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pam6

Can we trim back their trees to put up our fence?? We want to trim ONE tree about 2 foot. Can we LEGALLY do that??

Yes, you can, at least in this state. They will be angry, but so be it.

rambler · #44 07/27/10, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pam6

Other than encroachment with their tree limbs they are not USING my property.

You said they were mowing it - that is them 'using' it already.

Once you get your fence uyp 4 feet from the true border, how often will you get there to mow your property? They will - oh heck it's mowed. With the fence up, your kids won't get there.

They get a few pics of them on the property over the years, you _Don't_ have any proof you've been there......

Stranger things have happened. If it was a good neighbor, no big deal. But doesn't sound like that's the case.

At some point you will need to claim the property line. Miserable that people have to be that way. I know. Tough to stir things up. I know.

--->Paul

iaragwooler · #45 07/28/10, 07:34 AM

In an earlier post you mentioned it had been surveyed before you moved in. In that case, you shouldn't have to survey again but just have the survey guy locate the pins. You can ask him to locate the pins only on the side in question with your neighbor. In our area they will do that for $50-100. Rambler nailed it, you will need to claim the property line now as their use has been going on already. That really is the first thing you need to do. Most states require that the licensed surveyor record that survey and those iron pins are buried in the ground but still easy to find. I moved from a small town where property was bought and sold with no surveys as it was not required. In one instance right after a young couple closed and moved in the neighbor to the north put up a steel post and said that was his line and their garage was over by 4". He wanted "compensation". It was an old garage & I think leaned by the 4 inches. Probably was built on the property line. Surveyor found old pins and yes it was over. However.....this one ended in buyer's favor as the result of locating the pins showed that the neighbor's new garage was then 4 inces over on city property!! He pulled his post, end of story and it will stay that way until someday a buyer will have to address it.

Pam6 · #46 07/28/10, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

You said they were mowing it - that is them 'using' it already.

Once you get your fence uyp 4 feet from the true border, how often will you get there to mow your property? They will - oh heck it's mowed. With the fence up, your kids won't get there.

They get a few pics of them on the property over the years, you _Don't_ have any proof you've been there......

Stranger things have happened. If it was a good neighbor, no big deal. But doesn't sound like that's the case.

At some point you will need to claim the property line. Miserable that people have to be that way. I know. Tough to stir things up. I know.

--->Paul

We are BOTH mowing it. They mow it to go around the trees and then we mow it straight down on our side every time we mow.
Then I will just have to post a few pics on my blog of us weed whacking it!

Pam6 · #47 07/29/10, 06:19 PM

*UPDATE*

Just saved myself $690!! We found the iron pins!! I WAS SO WRONG!! I thought the tree line was the property line and it is WAY off!! His trees angle in the opposite direction of the line. At the front of the property the center of his trees are about 2-3 foot off the line. At the corner of the "L" part he is about 5-6 foot away! The other corner of the "L" part in the middle of his back yard is right in the middle of his trees and 2 of those HUGE trees (center of the trees) are about 6" off the line. We are going to trim those two trees up along the back. I do not even think it will be that noticeable. One tree is planted WAY in on our property. By about 3'. Clearly on our property. I think it is the nicest of all the trees too! It is only about 4' tall. We will still have to trim the one tree along the line that we thought we were going to have to trim.
Once I found the pin in his backyard it only took us about 10 minutes to find the other two pins.
Being where the property line actually is we will more than likely put at least the one part of the fence on the line and the other about a foot in, the part that goes right across his backyard.
So we have actually been mowing part of HIS yard!! I am thinking if we do not dig up that one 4' tree and give it to him our goats are just going to eat it!! LOL!

Navotifarm · #48 07/30/10, 09:57 AM

Fantasyland suggested: "Why not go talk with the neighbors? Say something like "We now need ALL of our land to feed our goats and we are going to have to build a fence to enclose them, but look see here the line where the fence will be runs right here in your nice trees. Would you like to trim them, have us trim them,or would it be a good time to cut them down?"Have a written agreement for each case written out with a time frame for the work to be done and whichever they chose have them sign the agreement. LEAVE ROOM ON PAPER AND IN YOUR HEARTS FOR RESONABLE NEGOTIATION."
I would definitely agree with that. Hopefully, your survey plat was recorded in the court records, "spread upon the books of the circuit court" as it is quaintly put. Personally, I would go look to see for myself if your neighbor's plat is recorded and if your plat matches theirs.
Now I myself have had bad luck talking to my neighbors. They prefer to use the Pearl Harbor tactic but I believe people should rattle before they strike! If you just start cutting on trees and running a fenceline and they are hostile, they will get stirred up and while they might not be man enough to say anything, they will poison your dog or steal a goat or something.
People go to court over things like this. Lawyers are a lot more expensive than surveyors. I read a wonderful case about a fence set several feet off a boundary line where one neighbor claimed the other's land. It cost each side over $12,000 to litigate over a few feet. The key phrase in the winning side's argument was, "When you snooze, you lose!"
If your neighbor put something on your land that is clearly all the way on your land, that makes it yours. If your land is marked as yours with the plat on record in the court and you're paying taxes and he mows your land, well, that's awfully nice of him! Marking boundary lines probably differs from state to state. Any no trespassing signs I put up get torn down, so I have to resort to aluminum or orange paint. You don't want to squander money getting a resurvey, but could you offer a cash payment to the surveyor to have one of his crew members come out on a weekend to spray paint and flag the pins and put in some surveyor's staubs to clearly indicate the line? Then you have a physical point of reference from a legal authority to give notice to your neighbors. And it's objective.

Navotifarm · #49 07/30/10, 10:04 AM

Oh, I missed the best part of what fantasyland said: the CHOICE part! It's a well-known salesman's manipulating trick. You set two or three choices up, any one of which swings the deal in your favor. You have yours papers to sign on a clipboard with a pen at the top. Move the clipboard toward him and tilt it down. The pen rolls down and he instinctively catches it. In other words, don't offer him the pen since that gives him a chance to reject it, trick him into grabbing for it. (Gleeful laughter).

Txrider · #50 07/30/10, 12:24 PM

Yeah with adverse possession, non friendly neighbors and such property lines can be a pain.

I'm closing on a property now that the neighbors with the 10 acres on the south side have a house built 15-20ft or closer to the line, no fence has ever been put there, but trees are across the line and mowing has been across the line. Luckily the owner has moved away to another city and isn't living there, but I would like to make an offer on their 10 acres so I really don't want to have an adversarial relationship.

The one thing I am sure of, is that I am having a survey, and the property line will be clear right off the bat and fenced as soon as I can afford it. I think it's better to clearly deal with any such issue the instant I buy the place rather than let things sit over time.

The only issue I am not sure about, is fencing. The neighbor to the west has a barbed wire fence down the property line, I want to put up safety horse fence, woven wire with a 4" tall 2" wide mesh, maybe electric strand on top. The easiest thing to do would be to just attach to my side of the existing barbed wire fence posts on that side.

I have to figure out how to approach the situation, my instinct is to just go knock on the door and tell him my plans, and ask his opinion. After all he probably doesn't want sheep or goats coming over into his land any more than I want them getting over there.

Personally I believe in talking it out nicely as possible with the neighbor, and just being clear that I paid for the land to the legal property line, and it's nonsense for me not to want to fence it in, or use it however I wish. If the neighbor doesn't like it my position to them is that it's nothing personal, just doing what is right and correct and try to minimize any damage doing so might have to them with regard to trees or whatever that might be encroaching.

Pam6 · #51 08/02/10, 06:15 PM

From this link it says : http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/971.01971.01
Owner defined.
As used in this chapter:

(A) “Applicable county recorder” means the county recorder of a county in which a partition fence is, was, or is not required to be constructed and maintained in good repair.

(B) “Build a fence,” “construct a fence,” and “maintain a fence in good repair” include any necessary clearing of land.

(C) “Livestock” means horses, mules, asses, hogs, sheep, goats, cattle, and any other animal that is raised or maintained domestically for food, fiber, or hunting purposes.

(D) “Owner” means both of the following:

(1) The owner of land in fee simple, of estates for life, of easements, or of rights-of-way while used by the owners thereof as farm outlets;

(2) Any of the following with regard to any land that it owns, leases, manages, or otherwise controls and that is adjacent to land used to graze livestock:

(a) The department of natural resources;

(b) A conservancy district organized under Chapter 6101. of the Revised Code;

(c) A political subdivision with a real property interest in recreational trails.

(E) “Partition fence” means a fence that is located on the division line between the adjoining properties of two owners. “Partition fence” includes a fence that has been considered a division line between two such properties even though a subsequent land survey indicates that the fence is not located directly on the division line.

(F) “Preferred partition fence” means a partition fence that is a woven wire fence, either standard or high tensile, with one or two strands of barbed wire located not less than forty-eight inches from the ground or a nonelectric high tensile fence of at least seven strands and that is constructed in accordance with the United States natural resources conservation service conservation practice standard for fences, code 382. “Preferred partition fence” includes a barbed wire, electric, or live fence, provided that the owners of adjoining properties agree, in writing, to allow such fences.

We are putting in an electric fence. What are our choices? He is NOT going to allow us to do that especially in writing.
The neighbor has already been talking to our other neighbor that is helping us build our goat barn saying that he is concerned that he will not be able to mow around his trees.

ODINSWORN · #52 08/02/10, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pam6

Other than encroachment with their tree limbs they are not USING my property. So I am not sure how they can even claim it at all. One tree is planted on my property so unless they plan on selling one tiny little Christmas tree and consider that an income they can not even claim they are USING my property. I don't know how they could possibly prove that we never mowed the property in 7-20 years.
We have 6 kids and no judge in his right mind would ever believe that we never used that property between the trees in 7 years. The kids like to leave toys there ALL the time because it is close to their main play place.
I called and it will cost us $690 to get it surveyed. That is just not in our budget.
I would love it if I could just move!

What sort of survey did you ask for? Did you call the company that did the last survey? I would be very surprised if they quoted you that much to mark a line they'd surveyed recently. Having worked as a surveyor for a decade I advise everyone, DON'T offer up that there's conflict or possible conflict! I would just tell them you want to put up a fence for goats and want stakes online. If the irons are there, it shouldn't be a big deal, especially for the firm that has data on your property already. It could be they know the score and are charging you a PIA surcharge, but you don't need a full boundary. Get the line established, you won't regret it. If the market in Ohio is anything like Michigan, someone will cut the other guys throats and give you a good price. I wish I was closer, I'd do it for you pro bono, I have a soft spot for neighbor disputes having had a doozy myself.

Pam6 · #53 08/02/10, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODINSWORN

What sort of survey did you ask for? Did you call the company that did the last survey? I would be very surprised if they quoted you that much to mark a line they'd surveyed recently. Having worked as a surveyor for a decade I advise everyone, DON'T offer up that there's conflict or possible conflict! I would just tell them you want to put up a fence for goats and want stakes online. If the irons are there, it shouldn't be a big deal, especially for the firm that has data on your property already. It could be they know the score and are charging you a PIA surcharge, but you don't need a full boundary. Get the line established, you won't regret it. If the market in Ohio is anything like Michigan, someone will cut the other guys throats and give you a good price. I wish I was closer, I'd do it for you pro bono, I have a soft spot for neighbor disputes having had a doozy myself.

Thank you! We found the pins and have CLEARLY marked them and we still have an orange string attached to the stakes to mark the line. Now we need to figure out how far from the line our electric fence has to be.

rambler · #54 08/03/10, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pam6

From this link it says : http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/971.01971.01
Owner defined.
As used in this chapter:

(A) “Applicable county recorder” means the county recorder of a county in which a partition fence is, was, or is not required to be constructed and maintained in good repair.

(B) “Build a fence,” “construct a fence,” and “maintain a fence in good repair” include any necessary clearing of land.

(C) “Livestock” means horses, mules, asses, hogs, sheep, goats, cattle, and any other animal that is raised or maintained domestically for food, fiber, or hunting purposes.

(D) “Owner” means both of the following:

(1) The owner of land in fee simple, of estates for life, of easements, or of rights-of-way while used by the owners thereof as farm outlets;

(2) Any of the following with regard to any land that it owns, leases, manages, or otherwise controls and that is adjacent to land used to graze livestock:

(a) The department of natural resources;

(b) A conservancy district organized under Chapter 6101. of the Revised Code;

(c) A political subdivision with a real property interest in recreational trails.

(E) “Partition fence” means a fence that is located on the division line between the adjoining properties of two owners. “Partition fence” includes a fence that has been considered a division line between two such properties even though a subsequent land survey indicates that the fence is not located directly on the division line.

(F) “Preferred partition fence” means a partition fence that is a woven wire fence, either standard or high tensile, with one or two strands of barbed wire located not less than forty-eight inches from the ground or a nonelectric high tensile fence of at least seven strands and that is constructed in accordance with the United States natural resources conservation service conservation practice standard for fences, code 382. “Preferred partition fence” includes a barbed wire, electric, or live fence, provided that the owners of adjoining properties agree, in writing, to allow such fences.

We are putting in an electric fence. What are our choices? He is NOT going to allow us to do that especially in writing.
The neighbor has already been talking to our other neighbor that is helping us build our goat barn saying that he is concerned that he will not be able to mow around his trees.

I am a simple dirt farmer, so don't trust anything I say.

I read the above to say if both of you sign off the fence is now to be considered the property line, it will be that way, and the survey will no longer have any bearing. So, you would _not_ want to sign anything, nor have him sign anything.

What you want is (E), the new partition fence on the property line. Not the 2nd part of that talking about exsisting fence, but the first part, fence built on a property line.

Seems pretty clear there.

Actually you need to keep reading down. 971.07 is what will apply to you. You cannot force the neighbor to pay for his 1/2 of the fence, unless over the next 30 years he tries to use the fence for his own livestock. But it would be up to you to appeal that. And you are allowed to go onto your neighbor's property for 10 feet to build & maintain the fence - room to do the work.

Anyhow, you have a fairly standard state law there - if you both use the fence, you both pay for it. If only you use it, you foot the bill. The fence needs to meet minimum standards to be considered a good fence. You are allowed a bit of room to work on the fence, even on the neighbor's side. Fence should be built on the line, then it's called a partition fence.

You need to check your county as well - some of them have more detailed laws on fencing.

But, you don't need the neighbor's signature - you wouldn't want it! You want to build on the line, not some other place you both agree to. No signature for building on the line.....

--->Paul

ODINSWORN · #55 08/03/10, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pam6

Thank you! We found the pins and have CLEARLY marked them and we still have an orange string attached to the stakes to mark the line. Now we need to figure out how far from the line our electric fence has to be.

Make sure you check the county and township statutes as well to CYA! Good Luck!

Pam6 · #56 08/03/10, 08:16 AM

The first person I talked to down at the County said as far as she knows there are no zoning regulations in my township so we can put the fence where ever we want it....but she also said call back later because the guy we need is in a meeting and he could tell me for sure.

Pam6 · #57 08/03/10, 09:31 AM

I talked to the zoning guy and he said there are no zoning regulations and he THINKS that our neighbor has to sign in order for us to put up an electric fence on the line. He mostly said they do not get involved in those matters and that we need to call an attorney. He called the building inspector and he does not get involved in these matters either.

GingerN · #58 08/03/10, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterpine

Fence between the trees and staple the fence to the center of the trees if that is where the actual property line is located.
Let the goats take care of the trimming on your side.

I have to admit that I probably would do the same. By avoiding the trees, you are effectively giving your neighbor that 270x6 stretch. Before I did it though, I would find the corner stobs and make sure that I knew exactly where the line is and mark it clearly.

Narshalla · #59 08/03/10, 11:36 PM

Or, you could put up a nice decorative boarder on the actual property line, then the goat-resistant (there is no such thing as goat-proof!) fence where you like.

Occasionally, take a goat or two out and have them "mow" the area!

Pam6 · #60 08/03/10, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narshalla

Or, you could put up a nice decorative boarder on the actual property line, then the goat-resistant (there is no such thing as goat-proof!) fence where you like.

Occasionally, take a goat or two out and have them "mow" the area!

That is what we have decided to do. We are going to make the goat pen 5' from the line and we have already placed the property line fence posts in place. Then our electric fence will not be on the line and he will clearly have to be trespassing in order to touch the electric fence. Then that will give us two fence lines on that side to keep the goats on our side. We are thinking of planting sunflowers in between the fences.