I don't think that anybody rationalizes that 400 pounds or 1500 or whatever is reasonable. The argument that I see made, at least the one that I support is that everything is not equal for all people. For instance, a member of my immediate family was a female, 5'1" and weighed about 101 when I met her, and over the next 30 years went to 120 or so. Not so bad. Developed ESRD. Went on peritoneal dialysis. Stayed sick a lot. at one point was consuming less than 500 calories a day. Unless you know a lot about PD, you may not understand this but the fluid takes toxins from the body by osmosis and diffusion. BUT, the dialysis fluid contains a lot of sugar. the worse off you are, the more sugar in the fluid(rated from 1.5% up to 7.5%). As a result, you will absorb sugar from the fluid, up to 1200 calories daily. As a result, this relative went from 120 pounds to 160, at 5'1". On less than 500 calories of food a day.
As a side note, UNC perforated her colon during a colonoscopy and gave her peritonitis and E. coli infection as a result. she lost 20 pounds as a result of that, and the longer term effects of peritonitis and e.coli have slewed off another 20 pounds in the several weeks since. So, medical treatment caused a 40 pound weight gain, and medical treatment caused her to lose 40 pounds.
Now, that is her situation with weight gain and loss. one story among the 10 million or more people with weight problems. I know several people with medical problems that make them either gain or lose weight, dramatically. I find it unbelievably that some members of this forum are of the opinion that its all just fat people eating donuts and feeling sorry for themselves. That's just not realistic.

Like an analogy I used in another thread. Some people are terrified of snakes. I'm not one of them. Does my lack of snakefear somehow mean that their fear is not real? Do I have the god given right to uniformly state that their fears are foolish and unfounded? I'm not in their shoes, I don't know what made them scared of snakes. How could I ever be so arrogant as to make fun of them?

zong, yes, one story out of a million and I'm truly sorry for your relative. IF she's getting up to 1200 carb cals from dialisis "daily", along WITH 500 food cals, that is "up to" 1700 cals a day(ie she is not just getting 500 cals a day..and 1700 would be good maintenance for a pretty actively exercising 5'1" female). And getting 2/3 of your cal's from simple sugars is not healthy for anyone--just saying something is weird there with her nutritional counseling. Just saying, your story/example is not as simple as you make it out to be. Modern medicine is so effed up--it is so freakin frustrating for me (who is a pit bull without lipstick for being healthy or healing well) to get good information out of a doctor without being shoved upp the ying yang with pills, I can only imagine how it is for people who aren't so...anal...about it. I've only found ONE doctor willing and able to work with diet and exercise(I "fixed" my gallbladder and asthma--not as bad as renal failure, yet I avoided the slated surgery and my asthma was REALLY bad)--and I had to dig it out of her, and I got the feeling from her "well I'm not supposed to tell you this but...".

Window, great posts!!!! :cowboy:

Ok, THAT was FUNNY! :)

?????!?!What?:shocked:

The whole point here is that contrary to some opinions it is not a simple mathematical formula of calories in - calories expended = weight lost. There are many variables to the equation.

When you are on dialysis, you have no control over the sugar absorption. Thats why I stated "Unless you know a lot about PD, you may not understand this ..." there is no counseling involved, she sees a nutritionist every month as part of her treatment. Everybody on or involved with PD is aware of the sugar absorption issue. The alternative is going to Hemo, or dying. I just don't think you know enough about dialysis to be making such statements. Which is indicative of the bigger argument here. take her story, my story, your story, joe from kokomo's story. is there a "one truth" that covers all 4 of them? If not, how can one statement cover 10 million cases?

This is getting to be like the political forum. Lots of opinions and very few facts.

Sadly "fat" has become a political issue today!

This right here speaks to WoM's thoughts.

I don't think anyone (me included) has "made fun of" anyone in any of these obesity threads.

You are confusing straight talk with making fun of people. Turning a blind eye in order not to hurt someone's feelings can have devastating results. I've seen it myself with substance abuse and with abusive relationships.

I've had good friends hate my guts for what I had to say to them and then come back and thank me later for being straight up with them when everyone else was trying not to hurt their feelings.

The fear of snakes analogy doesn't work for me because it doesn't include the consequences of unhealthy behavior. A fear of snakes won't kill you while everyone else has to pay to try and keep you alive

exactly, I'm saying as you were simplifying her story to prove your point about whatever it was, you left out pertinant information--as in, the math of 500 food cals, plus 1200 cals from dialysis--she is not "just" getting 500 cals and gaining weight--there are additional cals getting into her body, being absorbed one way or another. I was commenting on your use of your example.

I know you aren't referring to me, but as the primary caretaker of this person, I have given her hundreds of dialysis treatments, and have taken all the lessons given by UNC dialysis centers on the matter. The only reason that I even know that I am technically obese is that I offered to donate my own kidney to her and was told by the dr's at UNC that I was obese because my BMI was over 30, and had to lose 12 pounds or something, in order to be a donor. So, I really do know what obese means, it doesn't mean 800 pounds, or even 400 pounds. And I also know that everybody's body is different.

I found this, directed at me, in another thread to be highly insulting, and consider it to also be making fun of fat people in general. "It doesn't matter what cards you've been dealt. Just because you eat because you didn't get enough attention when you were a child doesn't change the fact that you are eating more then you need to. In fact, that kind of crap is exactly what I meant when I mentioned the whiners. They always have an excuse."
Yet you say that you haven't made fun of anybody. Well, maybe you don't think so, but I believe that the people who felt insulted and felt that you were making fun of them disagree. You like to consider that its straight talk. Most would consider it ill mannered. Now read exactly what I quoted there, which was directed to me, and tell me thats not denigrating to overweight people in general.
And, no, its not because I'm overly sensitive.

Interesting discussion, but the simple truth is the body doesn't manufacture fat from thin air, without an excessive intake of calories the body will not put on weight.

this was probably for YOUR recovery benefit--it's rough on a body to yank a kidney.

my mom had cancer and basically donated her living body to cancer research. THey pumped her full of junk which blew out her kidneys, threw her into severe diabetes, she went into two diabetic comas. SHe blew up liek a ballon, from fluid retention. I'm hardly going to use her as an example for weight loss difficulties of the "average" person. Yes she died. I hope the doctors learned something from her short life as a guinea pig.

I'm thinking that lose a kidney v lose the only woman I got. really, rather have 5 more years with her, than 20 without. She's the only person who never tried to change me and really, really likes me for who I am. We were marrried 30 years ago, then went our separate ways. got back together a few years back when we both realized that we were a pretty good match after all.
BUT, there is no such thing as an average person. except me. LOL Joe Average. all the way.

This was not directed at you personally. Nor has anything I've said in any of these threads been directed at any one individual. The point about emotional issues was being discussed and I addressed that point.

Like I said before, it has been my experience that a lot of fat people lean on these kinds of crutches to justify not trying. If you are one of these people then I don't care if you find it insensitive if you are not one of these people that you shouldn't be offended.

I would suggest that you read it again yourself and try to take the point from it rather than getting all riled up. The point was that no matter the extenuating factors if you are fat then you are eating more then you need to be.

With once again the obligatory disclaimer: IN MOST CASES!!!

And for the record. I would in no way consider you obese based on the pic you posted.

thats the problem. according to the definition of obese, I am. I cant hide behind the fact that I don't look obese, none of the obese stuff is about me. So, when obese people are portrayed, they're talking about me too. I may be a pretty old fat guy, but still an old fat guy anyway. Just wait til old people are the brunt of unfair characterization, I'll defend them too. and somebody already said..you aren't that old...

Let me try to make a point by going back to the OP. Do chemicals effect weight?

(delta)E = E(in) - E(out)

In other words, the calories you take in - calories burned = either a calorie surplus or a calorie deficit (or zero)

So what happens when we have extra calories? It gets stored as fat. This requires insulin.

What happens when we have a deficit? We burn fat. This requires leptin.

This is oversimplified as there are many more hormones involved in the processes of storing fat and burning fat.

Hormones are used by the body to communicate from glands to cells. Science is learning more and more about how this communication is being disrupted by chemicals, food additives, and overeating of certain types of foods.

Over time, this can result in problems that are very difficult to resolve. For example, Adult Onset Diabetes "is a metabolic disorder that is characterized by high blood glucose in the context of insulin resistance and relative insulin deficiency". source How do you get type 2 diabetes? Obesity and genetics are 2 leading causes.

So we all know of at least one common disorder (type 2 diabetes) that affects the hormone that controls fat storage.

The term "starvation mode" was used earlier. How does the body know to protect itself when caloric intake is dangerously low? Genetics. How do the cells know not to give up any more fat? Hormones.

If Americans ate the same diet our grandparents did, there would be much less obesity, even though our grandparents ate many more calories a day than we do. The reason is because they weren't eating many foods that interfered with hormones. Hydrogenated corn syrup, some artificial sweetners, abundance of foods containing large amounts of sugar and processed carbs, chemicals in food, etc. are all messing with the body's organs ability to communicate to cells.

The message for a cell to release fat must be received or the cell will hold on to the fat. No matter how much you exercise or how little you eat, if something is interfering with this communication, you will remain fat and just function off the calories you eat and maybe some fat stored in the liver.

What happens with many fat people is that the store fat part works great and the burn fat not so great. So they go on a diet and reduce caloric input and exercise to increase caloric output. Slowly they lose weight and then . . . . . they mess up and have a piece of birthday cake and ice cream. They ate 3000 calories and the next morning the scale is up 3 lbs. Impossible? Just water weight? No, this is real fat, because their body is so good at storing fat, it senses the high glucose in the blood and knows it needs to store all the extra glucose and starts filling up fat cells. It may take the person a week to lose what he/she put on in 1 meal.

I started taking a painkiller Friday night and gained at least a pound over the weekend, even though I ate very little. Probably water retention - guess that painkiller must have disrupted some hormonal communication.

Moon River, please explain to me how 3000 cake calories get converted/stored in the body as 3 pounds of body fat---3 pounds of body fat being equal to 10,500 calories. That's at least a few laws of physics/thermodynamics you're breaking.

3000 cals? so what, take a brisk walk for one hour for 6 days, and it's gone. Or you can run "vigorously" for an hour and burn it off in 4 days. Or go for an all day hike and burn it off in one day. Big deal.

Seriously, part of letting go of the emotional attachments/phobias of food is letting yourself enjoy something "bad" once in a while and not freaking out about it.

3000 cals is LOT of cake and ice cream btw! and digesting sugar takes extra water--so the body is going to hold onto water to digest. SO if you store the 3000cals(3500 cals equal a pound of body fat), then the extra 2 pounds *is* water, a quart to be exact(a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds.

3000 cals does NOT magically turn into 10,500 cals

MR, you can gain a pound from a lot of things, the average "normal" body fluctuates around 5 pounds in weight throughout the day, depending on when you eat, exercise(sweat), poop, pee, etc. Let it go! Thank God you're not a woman, then you get to gain 5 pounds out of nowhere once a month! (pssst, it's water...)

By weight it does. You are assuming that a lb must be 3500 calories of energy.

um... being in deficit 3,500 kcal DOES equal a pound of weight loss (on average)

What about when you lose water weight? How many kcal's is that?

Water doesn't have any calories.

You persist in using the specific case to deny the overall rule. There is a reason that 'every' nutritionist thinks that - on average - 3,500 kcal of deficit equals 1 lb of lost weight.

The sum total of 'specific cases' creates the average. Yes, there are outliers in the data, but you seem to want to focus on the people / cases that are outside that 3rd std deviation, rather than the bulk of people in the center of the Bell Curve (the vast majority).

R

P.S. By the by, a Bell Curve also has a 3rd std deviation on the other side, offsetting the side you keep focusing on.

do you wear flip flops?

And I'm saying that there are so many people outside the 3rd std deviation that the hypothesis must be discarded. It is near useless in most people that are obese.

Just guessing, but I think that for most people who are less than 30% overweight, what most here are arguing is probably true. But for people 40% or more overweight, the hormones that control weight gain/loss seem to be affected. I have looked for a study comparing groups at different percentages of overweight but have never seen one.

This is hopeless. Fat people desperately want to believe something or someone else is to blame for their fatness. They raise all their ridiculous schemes and conspiracy theories to bolster their ludicrous points. You can continue to believe in these ideas, and you will continue to be fat. How well have those plans worked out for you so far.

Fat people, hear this. Stop eating and you will get skinny. It's not rocket science.

Pete

No comment.

You guys are wrong to say this is hopeless. This thread has had such an impact on myself and Miss Thang that we've decided to make a video and post it on youtube to show the difficulties and victories of somebody with a medical problem that causes serious weight fluctuations. You see, she, as being the "sick" one thinks that some of you guys are just ignorant of reality. Myself, as being the guy who has never been sick, but now spends a great part of his life caring for a person who is dying of ESRD(End Stage Renal Disease) thinks that at least one person can actually learn something from it. Maybe nobody on this forum can. Buy the link will be posted on other forums, where people with kidney failure will be thinking their life is over and will get a new perspective. I'll even sing my gal a love song!! It'll be fun. you might learn that everybody that has physical problems is not a self pitying fatso whining about donuts!! If you are as smart as I hope, and think you are, you'll learn that your "perfect" health can go away at any time. because I'll have pictures of her, 30 years ago.When she really was perfect. And today. And her story, of how she had a genetic predisposition toward kidney problems. And then, you got to figure, if this one person has a problem that causes insane weight swings, how can I justify claiming that everybody that is overweight is just a self pitying fatso, whining about donuts. Or, keep on thinking it, you don't change reality by thinking it ain't so. If you could, don't you think we'd think hard and fast, and change the reality that she, at 52 years old, is dying???

Good for you zong. Love your wife and stand beside her, do whatever it takes. I have no issue with legitimate medical weight issues, and do not actually judge every person I see on the street. You mentioned that your wife's condition was genetic, if I may, I'll contrast to the folks who believe that their fatness is caused by someone else putting "plastic" in their food supply.

Take good care of your wife, sing your heart out to her, and God bless.

Pete

Them how come the morbidly obese people on Biggest Loser can lose half their body weight or more in a matter of a few months(just for the record I think losing it THAT FAST is dangerous and of course it's for show dollars...BUT it can be done!!!). Obviously you can acheive fast weight loss using diet and exercise in hyper mode being wrangled 24/7--the difference is those people just WANT it more.

(PSA< if you do as Biggest Loser does you run a huge risk of injury and overtraining issues that will knock you on your butt and stall you in your tracks. Their eating program sounds spot on. HOWEVER, done RIGHT intense exercise will indeed take the fat off FASTER--you just have to work up to it smart.)

And ZOng, my mom died at 56. And renal failure was part of the mix, it was frankly horrible and well just make the best of what time you have!!!

Zong,

I hope you can find a way to not take my comments so personally. I can't emphasize enough that all my comments are focused towards the "average" person who I have personally had experience with throughout my life. I think everyone understands that there are real health issues involved with many cases which do make it difficult of not impossible to lose weight.

My comments were not directed at you and yours and I apologize for not making that clearer.

Much respect.

The people on biggest loser don't lose as fast as they lead us to believe. What they portray as 1 week is actually a longer period of time. You also find that those that lose the weight, have to maintain a 3-4 hour exercise regimen to maintain the weight loss. Why?

Once they reach normal weight, why can't they eat a diet similar to other people their size and exercise just 30 minutes a day. No, they have to spend the rest of their life on a very controlled diet and exercise for hours every day.

The ones that seem to be most successful at maintaining the weight loss become trainers. That way their job and new lifestyle are in sync.

Closing this thread due to the number of rude and offensive posts that have been reported.