Debt Free Farming and Ranching?

Patt · #21 07/20/10, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashTestRanch

Debt Free Farming and Ranching - By anokagrassland

What is your opinion?

Is it doable?

How about starting it off debt free?

What tax implications do you see? Increased/decreased?

I agree 100% with your link. We are doing that now, just paid off the last of the debt and husband quit his town job and we are living 100% off our little farm.

We also have a lot of friends who are doing the same thing, they started small and debt free and expanded as they could. Most had a job to start off the farm a few just bought the land and jumped into it with what savings they had but they are making a good life for themselves and their families.

I would say the biggest thing you need to know for your ranch is what your local market is and can you meet your living expenses with the market you have there?

francismilker · #22 07/20/10, 03:25 PM

I agree 100% with the article in idea. However, most of us have never lived in a self-sufficient livelyhood scenario. We put so much effort into our town job we think we don't have enough time to "live off the land'. I asked my grandma about it many years ago and I remember her saying, "we didn't spend all our time working." "if you averaged it out we spent about as much time during the day as people do today leaving for work, spending 8 hours on the job, and driving home." She always said if everyone in the family pitched in that it could be done in 8 hours a day.

CrashTestRanch · #23 07/20/10, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianheadranch

I thought this was interesting, does have some good ideas for those wanting to start,

http://agbiopubs.sdstate.edu/articles/EC922.pdf

Sweet link indianheadranch, thanks for the heads up.

CrashTestRanch · #24 07/20/10, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

So, you have the land & a few implements paid for? If I understand your replies.

Now, what is the 85 acres suited for? Shallow ground, dry ground, rock layer ground, poor ground, tree covered ground?

Or rich fertile stuff?

One does well to get $100 an acre return on typical farm row crops - corn, beans, wheat, etc. That really doesn't cut it.

Farmer's market sales of garden stuff can return a lot of $$$ per acre, but requires a lot of labor - both growing & sales. _Lot_ of labor. You sure won't have an 85 acre garden on your own! And you need a market - larger city with good farmer's markets or the like. Can make a few $1000 per acre, but will be killing yourself to keep up with 5 acres on your own.....

Remember, insects, drought, or flood is going to hit you every 10 years or so. Gotta have a plan to get over those years.

Health care is a big deal. Can't afford your own insurance, you kinda like to have a real job to provide such benefits & seed money to get past the rough years.

Just some random thoughts.

Define what kind of farming you wish to be doing here, livestock, grains, garden greens?

--->Paul

Thanks Paul, for the food for thought.

CrashTestRanch · #25 07/20/10, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geo in mi

85 acres of zone 5 land in Arizona may be quite different from Ohio or Illinois, but if you grow wheat, corn, or soybeans, here are some fairly basic things:Plug this site in and go to the markets section. Then put in your zip code to get your local market prices and locations.http://www.agriculture.com/

If you do not find these three for your area, then you will know there is no market there and you will not be able to grow them. Looking at ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/AZ/NRI..._by_county.pdf should give you some idea of the crops you can grow in your own county. I would guess that growing many of these will take specialized equipment, special knowledge, irrigation, and membership in a growers' co-operative to get a contract. In this area, grapes and apples are usually done by co-op contract(think Musselman, Lucky Leaf, Welch's and so forth)

As for water, you should study carefully the water rights for Arizona Here's a website for starter information: http://www.azwater.gov/AzDWR/WaterManagement/AMAs/ I think water and irrigation could be a showstopper for you, but you should study that situation very closely before committing.

A tractor and some implements may or may not be big enough or of the right kinds for the ag application you go into, but you might be able to use them for trading stock to get what you need.

Some things will take two men(or a woman), or hired labor.....Arizona?...Uh..... Applictions like laying plastic with a tractor and plant seedlings, potato seed pieces, etc. Hay baling of grasses( say for horses) are much easier with a stacker behind the baler, rather than picking it up from the ground....

Capital....if you don't want to go into debt, then you'll have to have an outlay of cash for your inputs before you start a crop--seeds, fertilzer, special supplies, soil ammendments. If you are going in for a loan, your lender will want a pretty good business plan, with collateral(your land and equipment)

Time....If you are raising dogs, ponies, horses, for fun rather than profit, then you'll have to subtract that time from field/farm time. Same for gardening, motorcycling, politics, socializing and girl friend(if applicable), TV, eating out, vacation, fishing, water skiing, Casino diving, Sunday football, NASCAR...

Health also means allowance for aging(maybe not a problem yet), and sunburn, broken bones, sprains, cuts, burns, so forth. Health also means nutrition and sleep--sometimes, if you are on a tight money budget and schedule, you may not eat or sleep right....

Knowledge. Of agronomy and soil conditions, fertilizer and pesticide usage(licensing required)--or if organic, knowledge of growing organic, and USDA ORGANIC rules and regs, how to grow your plant crop, how to harvest and when to harvest, diseases, weeds, and pests and how to combat them, welding, piping, and electrical, equipment repair, government regulations.

Everyone has to eat--right, but they are eating, now, and without you or your product. Think like a food wholesaler--shelf space in the retail grocery store is everything. You'll have to compete your way in......

Yes, God is in charge of the weather, but the state tracks it, and you will want to cooperate with the Plan, rather than go counter to it....http://azclimate.asu.edu/

Three years worth of stored food will either get you by until you gain enough success, or allow you to sell the RV if you go bust and have to look for a job

"So, how's this look so far?" I hope this gives you food for thought for something that is your own decision and responsibility. Hope this will help and encourage you in making it.

geo

Great links geo, thank you

CrashTestRanch · #26 07/20/10, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

So, you have the land & a few implements paid for? If I understand your replies.

Now, what is the 85 acres suited for? Shallow ground, dry ground, rock layer ground, poor ground, tree covered ground?

Or rich fertile stuff?

One does well to get $100 an acre return on typical farm row crops - corn, beans, wheat, etc. That really doesn't cut it.

Farmer's market sales of garden stuff can return a lot of $$$ per acre, but requires a lot of labor - both growing & sales. _Lot_ of labor. You sure won't have an 85 acre garden on your own! And you need a market - larger city with good farmer's markets or the like. Can make a few $1000 per acre, but will be killing yourself to keep up with 5 acres on your own.....

Remember, insects, drought, or flood is going to hit you every 10 years or so. Gotta have a plan to get over those years.

Health care is a big deal. Can't afford your own insurance, you kinda like to have a real job to provide such benefits & seed money to get past the rough years.

Just some random thoughts.

Define what kind of farming you wish to be doing here, livestock, grains, garden greens?

--->Paul

Well, the "plan" is grass farming/ranch, i.e. MiG, similar to Agmantoo's setup on the north 40+. With a few differences of course, i.e. following the herd with a chicken tractor, as we do not have local access to chicken litter. Plus the smaller herd size.

The south 40+, is still in the planning stages. Have some ideas because of the terrain, may go the grape vineyard or goat/sheep route. With some acreage set for other fruits and veggies. Still working that one out on paper.

We do have several major cities w/ upper end restaurants that we could do some direct marketing to. As well as several sale barns close by.

Still trying to keep everything debt free, so it's slow going right now.

Linkovich · #27 07/20/10, 04:41 PM

Course it's doab;e. Friends of mine have done it. She bought the land from her parents as soon as she had enough money. But they literally lived in a shack and raised chickens until they had enought to build a house. Then they raised sheep, and did that until they had enough to build a barn. Plus he was working off farm. It's doable, but you'll probably have to cut back on certain comforts of life to do it.

bruce2288 · #28 07/21/10, 12:00 AM

What is your rainfall? I suspect it is pretty arid there. You will not run very many cows on 40 acres without adequate moisture. By well I assume you mean a domestic well not an eight inch irrigation well?

CrashTestRanch · #29 07/21/10, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce2288

What is your rainfall? I suspect it is pretty arid there. You will not run very many cows on 40 acres without adequate moisture. By well I assume you mean a domestic well not an eight inch irrigation well?

8" well is on south 40.

12-18" rain/yr
snow around 24"

already have several "ponds" that hold snow melt/rain for most of the summer.

pancho · #30 07/21/10, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkovich

Course it's doab;e. Friends of mine have done it. She bought the land from her parents as soon as she had enough money. But they literally lived in a shack and raised chickens until they had enought to build a house. Then they raised sheep, and did that until they had enough to build a barn. Plus he was working off farm. It's doable, but you'll probably have to cut back on certain comforts of life to do it.

Most of the time in the old days the barn was the first thing they would build. The house came second and many times the people would live in the barn until a house was built.
The animals are your business. You have to take care of the business before luxurys.

motdaugrnds · #31 07/21/10, 07:07 AM

I have discovered if you want something bad enough, then it is doable!

You stated above there were "...several major cities w/upper end restaurants that we could do some direct marketing to. As well as several sale barns close by."

Have you spoken with the owners of those restaurants to see if there is anything they would like to have access to "locally"? Maybe you could raise/grow it (example: raising pigeons & selling squab; raising goats & selling goat meat; vegies & fruits)?

Have you visited the sale barns to see what is selling? Talking with the people there who are buying to find out what they would like to have access to?

Also, you might do some research in your area to see what the smaller land owners are buying, i.e. baled hay? What kind are they wanting & how much would they be willing to pay for "quality"? (Here a high quality square bale of orchard grass is selling for $8.00 per bale & people are glad to get it.)

I'm not sure what you are saying about your well either. Do you have an 8 inch trench of some sort you get water from? No decent well is 8 inches or even 8 feet deep; so I don't know what you are saying your water source is. (Ponds are fine for live stock and watering pastures. You use it to service human needs too?)

bruce2288 · #32 07/21/10, 10:10 AM

An 8 inch well has an eight inch diameter caseing as opposed to domestic which is usually 2 inch. It may be 100's of feet deep. Can pump hundreds of gallons/minute depending on the aquifer.

lmrose · #33 07/21/10, 12:12 PM

We are debt free and always have been since we paid off the farm. It took ten years of sacrifice and us both working to pay the bank. We never went in debt for anything to operate the farm. Instead we re-cycled old horse drawn farm machienery, re-used and re-built everything we could and built what we couldn't buy. Nothing was wasted and what we couldn't afford we did without. It has been hands on labor working this farm and no big machienery. We did it the hard way like pioneers but have no debts and no regrets after 25 years here.

CrashTestRanch · #34 07/21/10, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

I'm not sure what you are saying about your well either. Do you have an 8 inch trench of some sort you get water from? No decent well is 8 inches or even 8 feet deep; so I don't know what you are saying your water source is. (Ponds are fine for live stock and watering pastures. You use it to service human needs too?)

Well info:
500' depth
405' to water
8" casing to 20'
5" casing to 460'
5+ GPM flow rate, and then some, it's BIG enough

CrashTestRanch · #35 07/21/10, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lmrose

We are debt free and always have been since we paid off the farm. It took ten years of sacrifice and us both working to pay the bank. We never went in debt for anything to operate the farm. Instead we re-cycled old horse drawn farm machienery, re-used and re-built everything we could and built what we couldn't buy. Nothing was wasted and what we couldn't afford we did without. It has been hands on labor working this farm and no big machienery. We did it the hard way like pioneers but have no debts and no regrets after 25 years here.

lmrose, part of our plans are exactly that, RECYCLE everything, even older livestock drawn machinery. That stuff is DIRT cheap and I am an aerospace welder/fabricator by trade, so modifying that stuff is pretty simple for me.

We do have debts, "city home" debts. But now, most are paid off or down to the point we can concentrate on the farm/ranch being totally debt free.

motdaugrnds · #36 07/21/10, 11:03 PM

We found "damaged treated wood" (real nice and all sizes and thicknesses) for $1.00 (yes one dollar) a board. We also found some real straight/level untreated wood that a lumber yard could not sell; but worked very well for vertical siding on our barn. I also tore down a 2-story old school house for the lumber, which was a high quality wood one cannot find anymore.

We have never had heavy machinery and everything we have was created by our own hands, walking & digging & hauling on a small wagon we pulled. Yes it was very hard; but we were determined not to go into debt to create our homestead. Thus, we don't have much; but what we do have is debt free and valued for all the work we put into it. (Learned much the hard way!)

Neither of us have to depend on an employer for our little income and it covers all necessities. We feel real blessed; indeed, we are blessed!