Where you live and Regulation

silverbackMP · #61 07/11/10, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would want an open sewage lagoon on their property. The stench, the bugs, and the danger of someone falling in.

I don't know why you keep trolling on this--yes I said TROLLING.

Your speaking of which you have NO clue. You speak about smelling city lagoons from two miles away; a great amount of manure/liquids put into one spot will smell and will go anerobic (if not properly designed/operated). The lagoons folks are speaking about on this thread ARE NOT liquid sludge.

A residential lagoon built properly has zero smell and zero issues. Poop/urine flows into the lagoon where all the organic matter/nitrates/nitrites are absorbs by a myriad of bacteria, nematodes, funguses, cattalils, lilly pads, and other water loving plants. A good supply of frogs and dragon flies control most instects. A proper lagoon is basically a purpose built wetland.

Also, properly designed lagoons can be scaled up; Bejing has mutliple parks with lakes fed from lagoon operations that pass through a myriad of grass/plant covered leach fields and there is zero smell.

PhilJohnson · #62 07/11/10, 10:58 AM

FyredUp, you mistake different ways of living for danger since you do not live that way yourself. Take the Amish for an example, they live without electricity and have out houses yet their children grow up strong and healthy for the most part. I agree certain aspects of building codes are good ideas, such as two exits, large enough windows for fire escapes, not building a balloon framed house. But like MacyBaby said, don't assume because where there are no codes that the folks who are building houses in such areas are ignorant of how to build a safe home.

Patt · #63 07/11/10, 01:52 PM

I'm kind of curious now: how do you have a bedroom with only one exit? I have never seen one that had only a door and no windows?

FyredUp · #64 07/11/10, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salmonslayer

Fyredup, I dont know if its intentional or not but you are classically illustrating the intent of my post. It seems to me that most folks from the upper midwest feel similar to you (PhilJohnson and some others a glaring exception) while most folks in the south feel somewhat different and to me its a clear geographic divide and I am wondering why; as I said before is it the inevitiability of it as your population grows? is it conditioning from government? or did you just move to placews that you felt more comfortable having guidelines to live your life?

Quote:

I am a very private person in real life. I prefer not to have too much government involvement in my life. I do believe though that where it comes to homes and the structural safety and secondary egress from fire, as well as sanitary conditions there has to be some oversight.

Fyredup, you came on this thread and implied those who disagreed with you are dirty, unsafe, and jeopardise their kids and with absolutely zero knowledge of the matter you react with revulsion over methods of dealing with sewage that dont involve porecelin and that dont just whisk away what you are obviously repulsed by (your description of a septic lagoon above is actually comical). As a former firefighter you make some good points and I doubt any of us on this board disagree that we would put a bedroom where there was no secondary means of egress we just disagree that we need to pay a fee or have some so called expert like you come and make sure we do that.

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Nope, I posted an example of a 3 sided concrete structrue with no windows in the bedroom and only one way out as an example of what some people will do when there are no codes to guide them.

You say these lagoons are clean, free of stench, and bugs. If you say so I can only go by your opinion. I do find it hard to believe though since the lagoon system for the municipality here stinks to high heaven in high temperatures and the wind blows towards town. I did ask for someone to explain this sewage lagoon system for a private home, and all I got was a link. None of you stepped up to explain it. Why? I have a traditional septic system with a leach field. There is no stench and other than the tank lids and the vent sticking out of the ground you wouldn't even know it is there.

I don't disagree that many will do the right thing regarding construction, but even here where I live some won't. The reality is codes are made for those who will always try to deviate from or subvert the system either wantonly or through ignorance.

You apparently would rather fight fires in a modern home full of plastics and polyesthers, and glues, and other things that are extremely toxic. Great, I wouldnt and your welcome to it. Everyone now wants an airtight home and no inconvenience and builders today do meet minimal code due to all of the rules and regulations but do you really expect that new home to be standing 60 or 100 years from now?

Quote:

Actually the conditions you are stating have been prevalent since the 1970's. Most new homes are furnished with synthetic furniture, and synthetic drapes and carpet. Many wall and floor coverings are glued in place. When I go interior on a structure fire I am wearing my full protective ensemble including self contained breathing apparatus. I would no more breath that smoke than any other while fighting a fire.

If a building is maintained, and kept from water damage, there is no reason that a home built today wouldn't survive 60 years or more.

Funny thing is here it can get as cold as 30 below zero...an enrgy efficient home isn't a nicety, it's a necessity. Both for comfort and economic reasons. If you live in a more moderate climate that isn't such a big deal.

Its just a viewpoint Fyredup and HermitJohn was using his parents birthdates as an Illustration that they didnt have all of the things you think are so vitally important and that some of us arent that far removed from it it wasnt a personal attack.

Quote:

It came across that way to me. I will go back and re-evaluate it.

No one is trying to change your viewpoint but you classically illustrate this divide and I thank you for that. Here is a link to the University of Nebraska that describes septic and lagoon systems. I dont know if you understand traditional septic systems with leach fields or how a lot of municiple sewage systems function either but sewage doesnt magically disappear and many farms use sewage lagoons to deal with animal waste.

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I am fairly well versed in leach field septic systems as well as the lagoon system the municipality I live in uses. I know full well that sewage doesn't magically disappear. My septic tank has to be pumped and inspected, I believe every 2 years, funny thing is there is usually very little solids in the tank, maybe a foot or so...they aren't going into my leach filed. It is being broken down by biological means.

I have avoided any mention of composting toilets because I suspect that really isnt something you would embrace am I right?

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I admit to not being well versed on this. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this topic too.

http://lancaster.unl.edu/acreageguide/waste.shtml

Admittedly we have different vewpoints, doesn't necessarily have to make us adversaries otherwise.

FyredUp · #65 07/11/10, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverbackMP

I don't know why you keep trolling on this--yes I said TROLLING.

Your speaking of which you have NO clue. You speak about smelling city lagoons from two miles away; a great amount of manure/liquids put into one spot will smell and will go anerobic (if not properly designed/operated). The lagoons folks are speaking about on this thread ARE NOT liquid sludge.

A residential lagoon built properly has zero smell and zero issues. Poop/urine flows into the lagoon where all the organic matter/nitrates/nitrites are absorbs by a myriad of bacteria, nematodes, funguses, cattalils, lilly pads, and other water loving plants. A good supply of frogs and dragon flies control most instects. A proper lagoon is basically a purpose built wetland.

Also, properly designed lagoons can be scaled up; Bejing has mutliple parks with lakes fed from lagoon operations that pass through a myriad of grass/plant covered leach fields and there is zero smell.

How about instead of attacking me you EXPLAIN how this all works? I did ask for that several posts ago.

I am willing to learn. I am going to tell you though that i don't believe a private lagoon system is allowed in Wisconsin. Although i don't know that for a fact.

Danaus29 · #66 07/11/10, 02:26 PM

FyredUp, you could have just said you grew up using an outhouse and thought it was a horrible way for a child to have to grow up. That would have been a lot easier to understand than a blanket statement against people who want to have the option of having an outhouse or lagoon system.

Does anyone know if the Cleveland Ohio zoo still uses a lagoon system for sewage treatment? I tried several google searches but couldn't find the info. Maybe it was the Cincinnatti Zoo?

arabian knight · #67 07/11/10, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

How about instead of attacking me you EXPLAIN how this all works? I did ask for that several posts ago.

I am willing to learn. I am going to tell you though that i don't believe a private lagoon system is allowed in Wisconsin. Although i don't know that for a fact.

No I don't think it is, and if my Dad would have anything to say abut the situation Nobody would have a Outhouse either.~!!!!!
Not one outhouse preforms like a Municipal water treatment plant.~ he would like to see everybody connected to a system not dumbing their poo in the underground water system.
And my dad was a City plumbing and health inspector for a large WI city for 35 years.

FyredUp · #68 07/11/10, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

I'm kind of curious now: how do you have a bedroom with only one exit? I have never seen one that had only a door and no windows?

The home I described had 3 sides of poured concrete. Those sides are built into the side of this hill/mountain and had no windows or doors, NONE. The front of this home had 2 patios doors one on each side, dividing the front wall into 3 parts.

The home is divided into the front half and the back half the front half is completely open with the kitchen dining room on one side and a living room on the other. They are installing a wood stove on the wall between the patio doors. The back half has 2 bedrooms divided by a bathroom utility room. The only way in and out of the bedrooms and the bathroom is through a single door for each room. Those doorways open into the open front half of the home. My feeling is that if there is a fire in the front half those in th back half will have little if any chance to get out and their escape path will be through the smoke and fire area.

Danaus29 · #69 07/11/10, 02:32 PM

Here is a little bit of info from the state of MO.
http://extension.missouri.edu/public...b.aspx?P=WQ402
I know there are books and books on the subject and anyone interested in installing one should learn all they can about sewage lagoons. I don't know much about them except the little I read from the one zoo about how theirs was designed, planned, implemented, and landscaped. But that was years ago and I have forgotten much of what I read.

FyredUp · #70 07/11/10, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

No I don't think it is, and if my Dad would have anything to say abut the situation Nobody would have a Outhouse either.~!!!!!
Not one outhouse preforms like a Municipal water treatment plant.~ he would like to see everybody connected to a system not dumbing their poo in the underground water system.
And my dad was a City plumbing and health inspector for a large WI city for 35 years.

Not one outhouse performs like a properly installed, and maintained, septic system. I am in favor of properly installed, and maintained, septic systems over municipal systems in areas where this is feasible.

FyredUp · #71 07/11/10, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danaus29

FyredUp, you could have just said you grew up using an outhouse and thought it was a horrible way for a child to have to grow up. That would have been a lot easier to understand than a blanket statement against people who want to have the option of having an outhouse or lagoon system.

Does anyone know if the Cleveland Ohio zoo still uses a lagoon system for sewage treatment? I tried several google searches but couldn't find the info. Maybe it was the Cincinnatti Zoo?

My blanket statement was simply your rights do not overpower protecting health and the water supply from unwanted contamination.

MushCreek · #72 07/11/10, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

I'm kind of curious now: how do you have a bedroom with only one exit? I have never seen one that had only a door and no windows?

There pretty common in basements. The window has to be a minimum size to meet code, so that a person could crawl out of it. In basements, they put a well outside the window, and a ladder to the surface. That's all code these days.

I'm kinda torn on the issue of building codes. On one hand, it's my property, and I should be able to do whatever I want, so long as it doesn't negatively impact my neighbor's property. But I've seen and heard about enough cases of shoddy building that it is a concern. We almost bought a house with a sunken living room- literally. There was about a 2" step down to the living room, which wasn't so odd in itself until it was revealed that the roof leaked where the living room was attached. After further investigation, it was found that the slab for the addition was poured with no footers, and had sunk about 2", causing the roof to separate. I was nearly stuck with an expensive fix. I just read about a case of a 3 y/o home, and the rear deck simply fell off. The deck was second floor height, and there was no load on it, or bad weather. It simply FELL off! Can you imagine if there were a dozen people out there at a BBQ? Some believe that people will build to code on their own- well, someone didn't in this case. Maybe they should make you sign a waiver if you want to build without code, and then you can't legally sell the property without either tearing it down, or going through a rigorous inspection to bring it up to code.

There are laws about everything in this country in part because people cannot police themselves. Can you imagine if you lifted all of the speed limits? Do you really think people would drive at safe speeds?

Danaus29 · #73 07/11/10, 03:13 PM

I've already pointed out that overworked and worn out municipal systems are a public danger and nuisance. How much more contaminated can water get than dumping contaminated water into it?
http://extoxnet.orst.edu/faqs/safedrink/sewage.htm
http://www.pollutionissues.com/Ve-Z/...reshwater.html
http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/uscities.asp

Want to hear something strange and which concerns me? Columbus Ohio does not have their water quality facts and EPA test data posted on a site where the general public has access. What does that tell you? Nearly all of Columbus drinking water comes from the Scioto river watershed. There are many times the sewage plants upstream have had raw sewage overflows. Dead people are frequently found in the Scioto river. A large variety of wildlife swim and poop in the Scioto. Untreated storm water with it's multiple contaminants runs directly into the Scioto. The tap water is so heavily treated with chlorine that you can smell the bleach when you run the cold water for a few minutes.

Patt · #74 07/11/10, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

The home I described had 3 sides of poured concrete. Those sides are built into the side of this hill/mountain and had no windows or doors, NONE. The front of this home had 2 patios doors one on each side, dividing the front wall into 3 parts.

The home is divided into the front half and the back half the front half is completely open with the kitchen dining room on one side and a living room on the other. They are installing a wood stove on the wall between the patio doors. The back half has 2 bedrooms divided by a bathroom utility room. The only way in and out of the bedrooms and the bathroom is through a single door for each room. Those doorways open into the open front half of the home. My feeling is that if there is a fire in the front half those in th back half will have little if any chance to get out and their escape path will be through the smoke and fire area.

I would have to agree with you that does definitely sound like a tragedy if they have a fire.

FyredUp · #75 07/11/10, 03:19 PM

I read the info on the lagoon and I admit that I didn't understand them properly. I still wouldn't have one on my property because the ground is fine for a leach field.

What people failed to explain and I failed to understand is you are NOT putting solids in the lagoon, you have a septic tank that the solids remain in and are being digested just like in my septic system's tank. Only the liquid goes to the lagoon. Essentially the lagoon is an above ground leach field.

Thanks for the info.

Patt · #76 07/11/10, 03:26 PM

Thank you by the way FyredUp, we were discussing the house you described and then my husband said well you know the place we are going to put the woodstove probably isn't such a great idea either.

It goes in either this week or next so thanks for making us think that one through!

Danaus29 · #77 07/11/10, 03:42 PM

Around here you would have to dig down 70 feet + to hit an underground water pocket. You'll hit oil shale long before. If the poo is buried in a soil pocket no less than 5 feet deep and covered over before the level gets to 3 feet deep the waste will decompose in a few years. Add a bunch of shredded leaves or other high carbon material and you have a compost pit. Greywater systems are another matter but if your property is large enough the greywater system could be used to water bush or tree crops or ornamental plantings. My great-grandmother had her outhouse located under a bunch of mulberry trees. Yes, we ate those mulberries every spring. Dh remembers the raspberries that grew around his grandmothers outhouse. He says he's never had raspberries that sweet since.

Lyra · #78 07/11/10, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

FyredUp, you mistake different ways of living for danger since you do not live that way yourself. Take the Amish for an example, they live without electricity and have out houses yet their children grow up strong and healthy for the most part. I agree certain aspects of building codes are good ideas, such as two exits, large enough windows for fire escapes, not building a balloon framed house. But like MacyBaby said, don't assume because where there are no codes that the folks who are building houses in such areas are ignorant of how to build a safe home.

The Amish do not have modern sewers unless it is regulated. Yes, they can build a house but they fail at hygiene.

salmonslayer · #79 07/11/10, 03:51 PM

Quote:

What people failed to explain and I failed to understand is you are NOT putting solids in the lagoon, you have a septic tank that the solids remain in and are being digested just like in my septic system's tank. Only the liquid goes to the lagoon. Essentially the lagoon is an above ground leach field.

Yup, like I said I was a little dubious too but a neighboring farm has one and it not only doesnt smell the wildlife thrive there and you would think it was a natural pond. Now that doesnt mean I want one because I am happy with my traditional septic system but maybe this is an example of how we all react to things we havent experienced. When I was a kid my aunt and uncle had a small farm in Michigan that they had lived on since the early 30s and they didnt have indoor plumbing or running water (they had a hand pump out the back door) and I remember thinking it was so cool. Now that Iam at the age where I have grandkids I am not as enthralled with that idea but I still dont want anyone to tell me I cant do it. I would understand if I lived in a city but I have to drive over 50 miles round trip to get to a grocery and I have no visible neighbors; some of us appreciate and thrive on having to think for ourselves and be responsible for our own actions since we dont have anyone else to do it for us. Its interesting reading the different views and mindsets.

FyredUp · #80 07/11/10, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Thank you by the way FyredUp, we were discussing the house you described and then my husband said well you know the place we are going to put the woodstove probably isn't such a great idea either.

It goes in either this week or next so thanks for making us think that one through!

You are welcome. Since I am a firefighter I have a serious one track mind about fire safety. Glad I could help.