Where you live and Regulation

FyredUp · #21 07/10/10, 01:57 PM

I am no lover of the government intruding into our daily lives as much as they do but come on folks, no building codes? I am a firefighter and my perspective is perhaps a little different because I know how fast fire can move and how easily it kills.

There is a couple on another forum I frequent that bought a ton of acres in TN and built a home into the side of a hill that is 3 sides cement walls with no widows or doors and one side with 2 patio doors. The bedrooms and bathroom are in the back with no other exits other than the 2 front patio doors. Essentially, if they had a fire in the middle of the night near their wood furnace (in between the patio doors), or the kitchen, to the right of the patio doors the odds of getting out are virtually zero.

In Wisconsin all living areas, including bedrooms, have to have 2 means of egress. Below grade bedrooms has to have windows that are large enough for people to exit through. Some install windows with escape ladders in a pit with a cover that lets light and ventilation in.

Life safety trumps freedom from regulation and if you don't think so how about you come along with me or some of my firefighting Brothers to view a few bodies that are a result of fire deaths in illegally modified homes.

As for no regulations on septic or sewage disposal that is just ridiculous. Your personal freedom doesn't give you the right to pollute the ground water or my well because of your laziness, incompetence, or blatant stupidity.

Sorry folks, I simply don't agree with absolutely no rules at all.

KeithBC · #22 07/10/10, 02:27 PM

I live in a region where the local government is legally required to protect the natural and cultural environment by means of zoning regulations. It is one of the reasons we moved here, because we think that is a good thing.

The zoning is not onerous. If you want a building permit, you can usually get one with no hassle, unless you want to build something really stupid. There is no place in the country that is exempt from building codes, but they tend not to be enforced here. That is not necessarily a good thing, as FyredUp pointed out. (I am also a firefighter, and agree about escape routes, etc.)

People who move here generally do so, like us, because they like the environment, including the political environment and the regulations. People who don't like the regulations don't usually like it here and don't move here. The result is a community of people with a healthy amount of social interaction because of shared values.

salmonslayer · #23 07/10/10, 02:56 PM

Quote:

seems to me the dividing line is not so much geographic as much as social up bringing and values. someone brought up in a city is more likely to knuckle down to conformity and just accept what is tossed to them or taken away. I will say even more so when it is multi generational thing.

Good point Downhome and maybe its just that the places I mentioned are more urban and are dealing with the needs of ever increasing population growth. Until I was 14 I spent every summer and some winters at my grandfathers house on Lake Goguac in Battle Creek and to me it was paradise. At that time the road he was on was dirt, there were small corn fields and apple trees everywhere, he had a dock out into the lake and I loved it. When he passed away in the early 90s I had the opportunity to buy the place for a song from my parents who inherited it but the regulations, zoning and severe restrictions now in place in that area would have meant I would have had to invest over 100K just to bring it up to their minimal snuff. That area is now heavily congested and I understand you need regulations in an environment like that with so many people living together but I just could never live like that.

And Fyredup, I think most places have regulations on septic and sewage disposal so I am not sure what you are saying. In my county you can have outhouses, septic systems, there are some places with county sewer and you can have lagoons but even here there are regulations on how they are constructed. Unless you are willing to pony up the dough to bring all older homes up to your vision of life safety your always going to have life safety issues regarding egress, electrical, etc. I am a first responder and volunteer fire fighter and we actually have people who opt to be put on a list who dont want us to respond either for fire or medical emergencies because they dont want any intrusion (lots of old timers here that believe in doing for themselves or they just dont want to pay the $50.00 annual RFD dues). I think they are nuts but you know, thats their choice.

Terri, as you have found out you have to be careful when selecting a contractor but I think thats true anywhere. I have had just the opposite experience but I solicite bids or estimates and check references. When we raised our roof I had some so called contractors quote me a price that I knew was way to low and he presented poorly which was reflected in his lack of references, I sorted through 9 bids and ended up selecting the highest bidder because he was most suited to accomplish what I needed and he freely shared independent references (I am now one of them).

Lots of thoughtful responses and its interesting to see everyones viewpoints and their reasons therefore. The farm I bought was actually very dangerous with overloaded electrical circuits, no junction boxes, tri-plex wire laying on the roof, an uncovered hay drop right in the middle of the second floor of the barn etc. but weve managed to wade through it all and get most of it corrected without permit one. Someone also said on another thread that some people treat a house more as a home to live in as you see fit and to take care of and improve as you can and others see it as an investment and concern themselves with what others do on their property as it relates to how their investment is doing.

And Lyra, most of my neighbors are poor and if their houses are falling down we all try and help each other improve them, I dont begrudge them for their lack of money or expertise and if I wanted to live in a fancy neighborhood I wouldnt live where I do. We all burn our garbage out here but we dont build or live next to each other so its not an issue, dogs can be a problem and most people here shoot stray dogs because of the feral dog problem and livestock issues, cats are welcome to keep the snakes and rodents at bay, we dont have garbage bins to dump into and fortunately I have never had any neighbor taken to dumping buckets of sewer all over the place (even here!). As for the humane society taking a neighbors animals I have experienced that one when we lived in another more urban area and find that extremely distasteful.

HermitJohn · #24 07/10/10, 03:10 PM

As the WV poster mentioned, that person's electric company requires an inspection before hooking them up. That sounds fine, its between the electric company and their customer. As long as the govt doesnt force that person to have electric service. Some places you cant live in a house without electric. I personally would go off grid to retain my ability to make my own decisions without big brother.

Patt · #25 07/10/10, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

So, I just muddle along, as best I can. Square peg. The govt thinks so too.

--->Paul

I think you are a farmer and I like you too. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I think any less of you.

big rockpile · #26 07/10/10, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhorseman

I live in Central,MO close to Lake of the Ozarks, if you live in the towns I think they do follow UBC and require permits, out in the county a person can build pretty much whatever he wants, whenever he wants. The Electric co-op don't give a hoot what happens on your side of the meter. The only sewage regulation is you have to have more than 3 acres to have a lagoon(potty pond). Well's have to be drilled by a state licensed well driller. Other than that all is fair out here. The county assesor comes by once a year and checks for any newly built buildings, then asesses accordingly. I think they are more and more using Google Earth for that job.

Overall, I like the government to stay out of my business. I pay my taxes every year, then they need to just leave me alone.

Yea I went to the Courthouse on something,Lady there says You don't have Running Water? No.You use an Outhouse? Yes.You know their illegal.Nope.Well they are but don't have much to worry unless a neighbor complains.Well all my neighbors have the same so shouldn't be much said.

big rockpile

Patt · #27 07/10/10, 03:19 PM

We chose Arkansas and all the other places we have lived down here in the South specifically because of less regulation and government intrusion. So it was a conscious choice for us. I was born and raised in the city to a family who thinks that the establishment is all out for their own personal good. I was also born cynical.

FyredUp · #28 07/10/10, 03:20 PM

Here's my issue with the life safety factor and sanitation...You as an adult can choose to live however you want in whatever your local area allows. You made that decision as an adult. You have no right to place your children in iminent danger from an unsafe residence or one with unsanitary conditions. They aren't allowed to decide if they want to live in a back bedroom with no escape other than through the fire. They aren't allowed to decide if they want to live where there is an open lagoon of sewerage on the property, or an outhouse. They live under whatever conditions you supply, no matter how precarious.

I believe you have a responsibility to your children and other while they are in your home or on your property to provide for thier safety and well being. I can tell you I would not be staying in a home with a bedroom with only one exit. I also wouldn't be spending much time at a home with an open sewerage lagoon, or where the only bathroom facilities were an outhouse.

big rockpile · #29 07/10/10, 03:29 PM

salmonslayer we don't pay Dues for the simple fact none of them can get back here,so why pay for something we can't get?

As far as Hole in the middle of you Hay Loft

Can't think of too many Barns that didn't have one.

big rockpile

#30 07/10/10, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

Here's my issue with the life safety factor and sanitation...You as an adult can choose to live however you want in whatever your local area allows. You made that decision as an adult. You have no right to place your children in iminent danger from an unsafe residence or one with unsanitary conditions. They aren't allowed to decide if they want to live in a back bedroom with no escape other than through the fire. They aren't allowed to decide if they want to live where there is an open lagoon of sewerage on the property, or an outhouse. They live under whatever conditions you supply, no matter how precarious.

I believe you have a responsibility to your children and other while they are in your home or on your property to provide for thier safety and well being. I can tell you I would not be staying in a home with a bedroom with only one exit. I also wouldn't be spending much time at a home with an open sewerage lagoon, or where the only bathroom facilities were an outhouse.

What is wrong with an outhouse???????? Lagoons are a very popular sewage system in many parts of Missouri..they work, they're cost effective and are not a health hazard..nor are outhouses. Certainly, it's your choice to snub outhouses and lagoons..but..wait a minute..that's the point, eh? Personal choice

Patt · #31 07/10/10, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

Here's my issue with the life safety factor and sanitation...You as an adult can choose to live however you want in whatever your local area allows. You made that decision as an adult. You have no right to place your children in iminent danger from an unsafe residence or one with unsanitary conditions. They aren't allowed to decide if they want to live in a back bedroom with no escape other than through the fire. They aren't allowed to decide if they want to live where there is an open lagoon of sewerage on the property, or an outhouse. They live under whatever conditions you supply, no matter how precarious.

I believe you have a responsibility to your children and other while they are in your home or on your property to provide for thier safety and well being. I can tell you I would not be staying in a home with a bedroom with only one exit. I also wouldn't be spending much time at a home with an open sewerage lagoon, or where the only bathroom facilities were an outhouse.

I am glad you aren't in charge of codes around here.....

farmergirl · #32 07/10/10, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

I also wouldn't be spending much time at a home with an open sewerage lagoon, or where the only bathroom facilities were an outhouse.

So is this a real factor for you when visiting friends and family? I personally don't worry to much about whether or not I'll have to poop in a 5 gallon bucket or an outhouse if my main concern is getting to visit with people I like

Have you never camped??

big rockpile · #33 07/10/10, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bostonlesley

What is wrong with an outhouse???????? Lagoons are a very popular sewage system in many parts of Missouri..they work, they're cost effective and are not a health hazard..nor are outhouses. Certainly, it's your choice to snub outhouses and lagoons..but..wait a minute..that's the point, eh? Personal choice

Yea reminds me of our DD came for a visit.After awhile she asked where our restroom was? I pointed down the path.She says I'll wait.Little later I said I was going to the Store asked if she wanted to go? Yes. We get there she asked if they had a Restroom? Sure do pointed down the path

What is the matter with you

people this is the 21century

isn't it?

big rockpile

salmonslayer · #34 07/10/10, 04:32 PM

Quote:

salmonslayer we don't pay Dues for the simple fact none of them can get back here,so why pay for something we can't get?

As far as Hole in the middle of you Hay Loft Can't think of too many Barns that didn't have one.

Ha I understand that Rock and my comment about the hay drop didnt come out right; its just ahole in the middle of the floor that was covered with a 1/2 inch piece of plywood and the previous owner would drive over it (straddle it). I didnt know it was even there until I stepped on the plywood and it broke..I still have the hay drop but I have made sure its covered properly and I know where it is. No doubt OSHA would have a cow.

A sewage lagoon Fyredup is extremely effective and sanitary if it is set up right so you are speaking of a subject for which your are obviously inexperienced. I will admit that when I first came here and found out about them I was a bit taken aback but they dont smell and they are no different then any other pond as far as kids (I actually have a septic system on my farm).

Quote:

Yea reminds me of our DD came for a visit.After awhile she asked where our restroom was? I pointed down the path.She says I'll wait.Little later I said I was going to the Store asked if she wanted to go? Yes. We get there she asked if they had a Restroom? Sure do pointed down the path What is the matter with you people this is the 21century isn't it?

I like that, I dont think some people on this board really understand how rural things can be. I went on an ambulance run the other day and some of the numbers on the rural routes are all mixed up which I am assuming is from renaming or renumbering but grandfathering people in. We had a heck of a time finding this farm and when we finally got there we asked the guy why there was no number or name on his mail box; his response was that they had lived in the same place for 70 years and he already knew where he lived. I had no response.

FyredUp · #35 07/10/10, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bostonlesley

What is wrong with an outhouse???????? Lagoons are a very popular sewage system in many parts of Missouri..they work, they're cost effective and are not a health hazard..nor are outhouses. Certainly, it's your choice to snub outhouses and lagoons..but..wait a minute..that's the point, eh? Personal choice

Personal choice is great when you are an adult. But when you extend your decisions to include children you accept the responsibility for their safety. I live in a community with a public system that uses lagoons as part of the system. Those lagoons are over 2 miles from my home and when the wind blows in the right direction the stench is overpowering. Whereas my septic system does a fine job of taking care of my sewerage with no smell what so ever.

But hey, if you want lagoons and outhouses more power to you. As for me...No thanks.

FyredUp · #36 07/10/10, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

I am glad you aren't in charge of codes around here.....

Why? Because being able to build whatever you want despite the inherent dangers is more important to you than the safety of your loved ones.

FyredUp · #37 07/10/10, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmergirl

So is this a real factor for you when visiting friends and family? I personally don't worry to much about whether or not I'll have to poop in a 5 gallon bucket or an outhouse if my main concern is getting to visit with people I like

Have you never camped??

Visiting and leaving are hardly the same as living there, OR staying there as a guest.

Yes, I have camped. Irrelevant to what the living conditions are at my house.

#38 07/10/10, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

Personal choice is great when you are an adult. But when you extend your decisions to include children you accept the responsibility for their safety. I live in a community with a public system that uses lagoons as part of the system. Those lagoons are over 2 miles from my home and when the wind blows in the right direction the stench is overpowering. Whereas my septic system does a fine job of taking care of my sewwerage with no smell what so ever.

But hey, if you want lagoons and outhouses more power to you. As for me...No thanks.

and..what is unsafe about lagoon sewage? BTW, I lived in Lancaster County, PA and when the farmers spread liquid manure over their fields the "stench was overpowering"..that's part of life in the country..and this is "Homesteading Today" forum..

Patt · #39 07/10/10, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyredUp

Why? Because being able to build whatever you want despite the inherent dangers is more important to you than the safety of your loved ones.

Well none of have died yet, amazingly enough we even raised 3 healthy happy kids here......

Like any of these other threads the question comes down to who decides the "dangers" and what needs to be done? Personally I think mobile homes are the most dangerous things on the planet and I would live in a tent before I would live in one of them. I have seen them burn so fast no one had a chance to get out. I have seen whole trailer parks scattered to the 4 winds after a tornado. Does that mean nobody should ever be allowed to live in one? Not in my opinion.

Macybaby · #40 07/10/10, 08:04 PM

Why do some think that just because the government does not FORCE one to to things "correctly" that a person will automatically use unsafe methods and practices?

I love the lack of regulations in SD - however DH and I have done a lot of research to make sure all the work we have done to our 130 year old falling down farmhouse is up to code and modern building standards.

I have no desire to build an unsafe structure - I just don't like the government treating me like I can't make good decisions on my own. And I really hate having to spend money and waste time proving to some government agency that what I've done IS up to snuff.