A cheap and reliable food supply

haypoint · #**441** 07/16/10, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apryl in ND

What would happen if all subsidies were stopped?

I don't claim to know what I'm talking about but maybe it would be a great thing for this country. Bad for subsidized farmers initially, but better for all of us in the long run. Healthy, REAL, foods would be comparably prices to grains so people would buy more healthful foods. Because people would have to pay more for their food initially, many more would start producing their own and cooking REAL food for themselves. People would live much less sedentary lifestyles because they would be busy producing their own foods. Their children would not be obese and would grow up to be more responsible and hard working. Because people would eat healthier and be more physically fit, health care costs would plummet. Maybe the government could actually even use the money previously allotted for subsidies to start a health care program since more people would be farming and not have health insurance. More people would move out to rural areas instead of move away from them. Because of this there would be a greater sense of community like there used to be in rural areas like mine. People could trade, barter, and help one another out like they used to. This would instill good values in our kids. Because more people would be living out in the country, this would give people the opportunity to become local business owners and the chance to work for themselves. Since there would be more businesses in the community, more money would stay in the community. I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

Puting farmers out of business will not cure the social ills of this country. This society of ours has fat lazy people because of farming subsidy? I ain't a going to believe it.
Moving more people onto our shrinking farm lands is good?

No matter how tight you squint your eyes, no matter how many times you click your heals, the masses aren't going back to the olden days. Lassie isn't waiting at the end of the driveway.

DaleK · #**442** 07/16/10, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

In 1900 the three biggest cities in the US were:

New York, NY 3,437,202

Chicago, IL 1,698,575

Philadelphia, PA 1,293,697

How did they eat?

Badly, for the most part.

Keep in mind that in the 1800s a large part of the urban diet, particularly lower income people, consisted of cheese and bread. Cheese because it was the only protein source that could be shipped from the more distant farms cheaply and without going bad and bread because they could ship the wheat or flour. There were local farms too, but most of what they produced was for the upper classes that could pay.

In the county I farm in there were over 150 cheese factories in the last half of the 1800s, shipping cheese all across the British Empire. We shipped wheat to England too. Many said in those days that London would have had a famine almost every year without Canada, and it was pretty similar in the US.

Apryl in ND · #**443** 07/16/10, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Puting farmers out of business will not cure the social ills of this country. This society of ours has fat lazy people because of farming subsidy? I ain't a going to believe it.
Moving more people onto our shrinking farm lands is good?

No matter how tight you squint your eyes, no matter how many times you click your heals, the masses aren't going back to the olden days. Lassie isn't waiting at the end of the driveway.

No, our country is full of fat, lazy people for many reasons besides farming subsidies. But, Subsidies allow grain to be be sold CHEAP and made into crappy, nutritionally devoid, processed food that is cheaper than healthy, nutrient dense foods like meat, dairy, fruits and vegetables.

What I described above would be, what I consider, an ideal world. I KNOW that it would never be a reality. Where I live, farmland is not "shrinking". In fact it is growing as farmers age, and their kids move to cities. There used to be many homesteads around here. Now those farmsteads are abandoned and are either in CRP or planted to the front porch with subsidized grain. If city dwellers moved to the country and started homesteading, it wouldn't take up any more land for them to feed their family then than it does already for some other farmer to do it for them. Their going to eat the same amount of food no matter what, right??

Heritagefarm · #**444** 07/16/10, 08:24 AM

Above post: Excellent thinking.

Mid Tn Mama · #**445** 07/16/10, 08:56 AM

If it can be done in inner city Milwaukee, a place that sees lots of snow, it can be done anywhere:

http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture...s-urban-farmer

**ladycat** · #**446** 07/16/10, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mid Tn Mama

If it can be done in inner city Milwaukee, a place that sees lots of snow, it can be done anywhere:

http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture...s-urban-farmer

That kind of thing is going on all over the US. But it's going to take a long time before enough food can be grown in cities to make a difference.

Mike in Ohio · #**447** 07/16/10, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

In 1900 the three biggest cities in the US were:

New York, NY 3,437,202

Chicago, IL 1,698,575

Philadelphia, PA 1,293,697

How did they eat?

If you are really interested try reading The Jungle (1906) by Upton Sinclair about the meat packing industry. The more things change the mroe they stay the same.

Mike

oneokie · #**448** 07/16/10, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apryl in ND

What would happen if all subsidies were stopped?

Production agriculture would go through a restructuring process. Low/no profit crops would be dropped from production.

Quote:

Healthy, REAL foods would be comparably priced to grains so people would buy more healthful foods. Because people would have to pay more for their food initially, many more would start producing their own and cooking REAL food for themselves.

Any thoughts on how long it would take for people adjust to having to prepare their own food? Any idea of what kind of unrest that would cause?

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People would live much less sedentary lifestyles because they would be busy producing their own foods. Their children would not be obese and would grow up to be more responsible and hard working.

Really?

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Because people would eat healthier and be more physically fit, health care costs would plummet.

With the current health care system, that will never happen.

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Maybe the government could actually even use the money previously allotted for subsidies to start a health care program

You did not see the link in an earlier post that gives a breakdown of how the USDA budget is allocated.

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this would give people the opportunity to become local business owners

A very small percentage of people have the abilities and knowledge to start and run their own business.

Patt · #**449** 07/16/10, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Puting farmers out of business will not cure the social ills of this country. This society of ours has fat lazy people because of farming subsidy? I ain't a going to believe it.
Moving more people onto our shrinking farm lands is good?

No matter how tight you squint your eyes, no matter how many times you click your heals, the masses aren't going back to the olden days. Lassie isn't waiting at the end of the driveway.

There is tons and tons of land available all around me for a reasonable price and jobs within a 30-45 minute drive. There is plenty of farmland out there it just needs to be handled right. (Note to self add "shrinking farmland" to the list to be researched)

Patt · #**450** 07/16/10, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladycat

That kind of thing is going on all over the US. But it's going to take a long time before enough food can be grown in cities to make a difference.

At the rate some major cities are shrinking the shift may happen a little faster.

sammyd · #**451** 07/16/10, 09:51 AM

Funny thing about that article on the urban farm in Milwaukee....They label it sustainable yet it has to make compost with stuff from outside sources.
What happens when those outside sources are used by other folks trying to urban farm. What happens to the grocery store waste used when food prices go up and there is less waste?

oneokie · #**452** 07/16/10, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apryl in ND

But, Subsidies allow grain to be be sold CHEAP and made into crappy, nutritionally devoid, processed food that is cheaper than healthy, nutrient dense foods like meat, dairy, fruits and vegetables.

Grain is processed into "crappy, nutritionally devoid, processed food" because it sells.

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and their kids move to cities.

Why do you think those young people move to the cities?

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If city dwellers moved to the country and started homesteading, it wouldn't take up any more land for them to feed their family then than it does already for some other farmer to do it for them.

Really?

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Their going to eat the same amount of food no matter what, right??

WRONG!

oneokie · #**453** 07/16/10, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

There is tons and tons of land available all around me for a reasonable price and jobs within a 30-45 minute drive. There is plenty of farmland out there it just needs to be handled right. (Note to self add "shrinking farmland" to the list to be researched)

Is the available land suitable for food production in quantities needed for a family, even when "handled right"?
What happens when oil becomes so expensive when the average person can't afford to drive that 30-45 minutes?

Patt · #**454** 07/16/10, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneokie

With the current health care system, that will never happen.

A very small percentage of people have the abilities and knowledge to start and run their own business.

I disagree on the healthcare. Insurance costs and the hospital/Doctor costs would not drop but individual out of pocket would drop dramatically. It would also save the Government billions on Medicare/Medicaid and other programs.

A lot of people could feed themselves at least some percentage of their food, just look at the way gardening has skyrocketed in the recession. Also every one of those small percentage who can start and continue a small local business will help their local economies and create jobs. Just creating a Farmers Market here where I am 7 years ago had a huge impact on our small town. In rural areas that are dying it really can have a snowball effect for the better.

I am curious do you know any small organic farmers who just started in the last 10 years or less?

Patt · #**455** 07/16/10, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneokie

Is the available land suitable for food production in quantities needed for a family, even when "handled right"?
What happens when oil becomes so expensive when the average person can't afford to drive that 30-45 minutes?

Absolutely! Next time you get an urge for a road trip cruise over here to western AR, heck I'll even feed you dinner.

You'd be surprised how much excellent land there is here.

ldc · #**456** 07/16/10, 10:20 AM

Long Island and New Jersey used to feed New York City; Victory gardens during WW2 provided unknown tons of produce. Horses and mules were still in use for delivery wagons at that time, and it was my dad's job to scoop up their calling cards from the street, for use in the family garden, in the borough of Queens! South jersey fed Philly, and had for 200 years. ldc

oneokie · #**457** 07/16/10, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

I disagree on the healthcare. Insurance costs and the hospital/Doctor costs would not drop

.

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but individual out of pocket would drop dramatically.

Not putting words in your mouth, but, with spiraling upwards insurance premiums and the same with hospital charges, indivudual out of pocket costs will drop?

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It would also save the Government billions on Medicare/Medicaid and other programs.

Having experienced first hand the workings of Medicare/Medicade I will say this. The only savings to the government will come from shifting more and more of those costs to the individual. That is happening now and will more and in larger amounts in the near future.

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I am curious do you know any small organic farmers who just started in the last 10 years or less?

Organic? No. There have been many retirees over the last 10-15 years that have tried raising fresh produce to supplement their income. Usually 2 or 3 years and they realize that they are spending more than they are taking in.
Remember in an earlier post I mentioned trying things to diversify? I even tried vegetable production one year, or half a growing season before abandoning that. A comparison would be owning a boat or in-ground swimming pool. A bottomless pit to throw money into. And I had market in place to deliver the produce.

Patt · #**458** 07/16/10, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneokie

.Not putting words in your mouth, but, with spiraling upwards insurance premiums and the same with hospital charges, indivudual out of pocket costs will drop?
.

Sure because if you are basically healthy you go with either a high deductible insurance plan or just a catastrophic one or none at all like us.

If you aren't sick you don't go to the Doctor very often and you save money. I have been to the Doctor 3 times in the last 9 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneokie

.
Having experienced first hand the workings of Medicare/Medicade I will say this. The only savings to the government will come from shifting more and more of those costs to the individual. That is happening now and will more and in larger amounts in the near future.
.

My husband was in healthcare until he "retired" to farm full time this year. edicare and Medicaid are a mess no doubt about it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneokie

.
Organic? No. There have been many retirees over the last 10-15 years that have tried raising fresh produce to supplement their income. Usually 2 or 3 years and they realize that they are spending more than they are taking in.
Remember in an earlier post I mentioned trying things to diversify? I even tried vegetable production one year, or half a growing season before abandoning that. A comparison would be owning a boat or in-ground swimming pool. A bottomless pit to throw money into. And I had market in place to deliver the produce.

Well like I said I know about 15 young couples or families who have gone into it like we have in the last 9 years and they are all either supporting themselves fully from it or close.

Did you do a CSA type thing or just a Farmer's Market or bulk sales to groceries and such?

Heritagefarm · #**459** 07/16/10, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneokie

Is the available land suitable for food production in quantities needed for a family, even when "handled right"?
What happens when oil becomes so expensive when the average person can't afford to drive that 30-45 minutes?

The same thing that happens when the CAFO owner can't raise prodigious amounts of food.

Heritagefarm · #**460** 07/16/10, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneokie

.

Not putting words in your mouth, but, with spiraling upwards insurance premiums and the same with hospital charges, indivudual out of pocket costs will drop?

Having experienced first hand the workings of Medicare/Medicade I will say this. The only savings to the government will come from shifting more and more of those costs to the individual. That is happening now and will more and in larger amounts in the near future.

Organic? No. There have been many retirees over the last 10-15 years that have tried raising fresh produce to supplement their income. Usually 2 or 3 years and they realize that they are spending more than they are taking in.
Remember in an earlier post I mentioned trying things to diversify? I even tried vegetable production one year, or half a growing season before abandoning that. A comparison would be owning a boat or in-ground swimming pool. A bottomless pit to throw money into. And I had market in place to deliver the produce.

So, you're saying local food is more costly to produce? No, it's actually cheaper to produce. By the end of next year, my steer that I sell that has been fed completely on grass will have approx 90% profit, minus his cost ($105) and the milk to feed him with ($16).
Most people spend more than they make on homesteads because they aren't concerned about profit. I know a couple here who raise sheep, and they throw more money away than the make... by about 150%. They feed hay year-round, alfalfa and clover and grain. Oddly, they have birthing problems.