A cheap and reliable food supply

CRichey · #**241** 07/12/10, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

Just because one study or two have said yes you can. Did they stop to figure in the Whole Picture? Feeding the USA plus most of the world, can not and will not be down like that it is impossible on a large scale taking in consideration have many the people the American Farmer Feeds today. It just is not feasible. Yes maybe on a small scale in a few studies but not on a large scale as farming is done today and feed as many people as they do. One must look at the Big Picture, and out of the box of the "pushing organic crops folks".

Maybe this large-scale system needs to disappear?

Do you really want these companies who have repeated quality control issues, are constantly forced to recall millions of pounds of food, and only care about lining the pockets of their shareholders to produce the food you and your family eat?

Do you think they are concerned about your health or safety?

Patt has already shown that organic is not only better for YOU, but also for the Earth, yet all you can come up with is it can't be scaled up. How do you know this? Humans seem to be pretty creative. Also, as has already been said, this large scale system will NOT work when the price of oil quadruples or goes even higher. It's only a matter of time.

Would you wait until you were starving to plant your crops? Why wait until the system is no longer sustainable to find a solution?

Patt · #**242** 07/12/10, 01:08 PM

A little more on the Rodale one, they are not importing any manure they are running an integrated farm system:

Quote:

Farming Systems Trial at the Rodale Institute — Soybean study.
Initiated in 1981, the Farming Systems Trial compares intensive soybean and maize production under a conventional and two organic management farming systems.

The first organic cropping system simulates a traditional integrated farming system. Leguminous cover crops are fed to cattle and the resulting manure is applied to the fields as the main source of nitrogen. In the second organic system, the leguminous cover crops were incorporated in to the soil as the source for nitrogen before corn or soybean planting.

Corn yields were comparable in all three cropping systems (less than 1% difference) (Drinkwater, 1998). However, a comparison of soil characteristics during a 15-year period found that soil fertility was enhanced in the organic systems, while it decreased considerably in the conventional system. Nitrogen content and organic matter levels in the soil increased markedly in the manure—fertilized organic system and declined in the conventional system. Moreover, the conventional system had the highest environmental impact, where 60% more nitrate was leached into the groundwater over a 5 year period than in the organic systems (Drinkwater, 1998).

Soybean production systems were also highly productive, achieving 40 bushels/acre. In 1999 however, during one of the worst droughts on record, yields of organic soybeans were 30 bushels /acre, compared to only 16 bushels/acre from conventionally- grown soybeans (Rodale Institute, 1999). "Our trials show that improving the quality of the soil through organic practices can mean the difference between a harvest or hardship in times of drought" writes Jeff Moyer, farm manager at The Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania (Rodale Institute, 1999). He continues, "over time, organic practices encourage the soil to hold on to moisture more efficiently than conventionally managed soil." The higher content of organic matter also makes organic soil less compact so that root systems can penetrate more deeply to find moisture. These results highlight the importance of organic farming methods and their potential to avert future crop failures both in the US and in the rest of the world.

There are several other studies listed in this article: http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/~christo...c_farming.html

This is a link to the Bioscience article mentioned earlier, it's the actual study with plenty of data:
http://coolfoodscountdown.files.word...ng-systems.pdf

Lazy J · #**243** 07/12/10, 01:23 PM

I just read the article and am disappointed in the lack of data for the readert to use to draw their own conclusions. After more reading it is apparent that this article is simply a summary of other articles which discussed the actual data from the Rodale work. We would need to read the various articles by Pimental et al. and Hanson et al.

On our farm, which is conventional, we already incorporate the use of cover crops (Winter Rye, Tillage Radishes, Austrian Peas) along with No-Till technology to limit the loss of soil from our erocable forest-derived soils.

Jim

Patt · #**244** 07/12/10, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy J

I just read the article and am disappointed in the lack of data for the readert to use to draw their own conclusions. After more reading it is apparent that this article is simply a summary of other articles which discussed the actual data from the Rodale work. We would need to read the various articles by Pimental et al. and Hanson et al.

On our farm, which is conventional, we already incorporate the use of cover crops (Winter Rye, Tillage Radishes, Austrian Peas) along with No-Till technology to limit the loss of soil from our erocable forest-derived soils.

Jim

I am confused, you read the Bioscience article? That one has tons of data? What exactly are you looking for?

Does this have enough info:
http://faculty.arec.umd.edu/jhanson/...g%20System.pdf

Lazy J · #**245** 07/12/10, 01:55 PM

Why didn't they use and barley or wheat in the conventional series? This would be appropriate for a conventional farm in SE Pennsylvania.

The whole argument we are having fails to account for the fact that commercial agriculture is not static, new technologies and ideas continue to be adapted. For instance, we no longer use a Moldboard Plow in my area with the use of No-Till technologies such as row cleaners, seed firmers, spiked closing wheels, etc. We also use variable rate applications of nutrients, giving the appropriate amount based on the soil nutrient contnent and potential yields.

The use of cover crops, once relegated to use by "hippy freaks" is a growing trend in commercial crop operations. This helps impvoe the soild structure even above the benefits of no-till, plus is helps with nutrient scavaging for better utilization by the crop.

Jim

Lazy J · #**246** 07/12/10, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

I am confused, you read the Bioscience article? That one has tons of data? What exactly are you looking for?

Lots of numbers, but little data for you to review. Too much of "..average production over that period was x, y, and z". Why did they average those years? What were the actual yields?

Also there was too much of "...the data was previously analyzed by XXXXXX, 2005." for a true research article, thus my assessment that is was a glorified review article presented under the guise of novel research.

Jim

Mike in Ohio · #**247** 07/12/10, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patt

so far we have zero studies from the conventional crowd and at least one that you accept from me on organic. How many exactly do you need?

3.141516

Blogging Wench · #**248** 07/12/10, 02:11 PM

I sprout Black Oil Sunflower Seeds, sold everywhere, even grocery stores, for bird food. Let them grow about 2" -3" high into "greens" and harvest before the second set of leaves appears. Use like lettuce... delicious!

Just soak 1 cup of seeds for a few hours, and plant in about 1/2 inch of soil in a rectangular strainer, plastic dish drainer with holes punched in it, or line one of those black plastic lattice-like rectangular trays that you use to bring seedlings home from a nursery with paper toweling and pat in soil. Cover with soaked Sunflower Seeds, another 1/2 inch of soil, and keep moist. VERY MOIST. Don't use the grey-striped sunflower seeds. They don't shed their hulls as easily as the Black Oil Sunflower Seeds. The black ones come off easily when the greens are ready to harvest. Cut greens with scissiors and rinse in cold water. These healthy, home-grown greens taste better than lettuce. They keep really well in the fridge, over a week if washed and dried carefully. Add to salads and sandwiches and get some great nutrition for PENNIES.

Oh, birds and squirrels think you have planted a gourmet meal just for their own pleasure... I have to use wire mesh over the trays to keep my harvest to myself!

Patt · #**249** 07/12/10, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy J

Lots of numbers, but little data for you to review. Too much of "..average production over that period was x, y, and z". Why did they average those years? What were the actual yields?

Also there was too much of "...the data was previously analyzed by XXXXXX, 2005." for a true research article, thus my assessment that is was a glorified review article presented under the guise of novel research.

Jim

So did you read the link I gave you? It was one of those original research articles with lots of info.
http://faculty.arec.umd.edu/jhanson/...g%20System.pdf

texican · #**250** 07/12/10, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

That doesn't make your way wrong, or bad.

I'm puzzled why you would think your way is somehow more sustainable, or somehow superior? That isn't true. No how, no way.

It's all farming, it's all about using land to it's best ablitiy to produce crops that can be used by humans.

--->Paul

Stop stop stop, your entire post makes too much sense.

oneokie · #**251** 07/12/10, 03:26 PM

From the Iowa state study:

and respectable crop yields are being
produced in ideal growing seasons.

From the Michigan State study:

analyzed published studies on yields from organic farming. They looked at 293 different

From the bioscience article:

The higher prices that organic foods command in the marketplace still make the net economic return per acre either equal to or higher than that of conventionally produced crops although cash crops cannot be grown as frequently over time on organic farms because of:

1. Cultural practices to supply nutrients and control pests

2. The fact that labor costs average about 15 percent higher in organic farming systems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Is there any chance at all any of you naysayers will make any effort whatsoever to back up your OPINIONS? Because if not I am done with this, I have amply proven my theory and you have not. Unless you want to give some hard scientific evidence you are wrong.

I could have a field day with this........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

I would love to read the Rodale study too but if it is on the web it is cleverly hidden.

I think they probably charge for it to recoup their costs.

It is not cleverly hidden, there is a subscribe button on the first Rodale link you posted in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRichey

Would you wait until you were starving to plant your crops? Why wait until the system is no longer sustainable to find a solution?

Because that is human nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

A little more on the Rodale one, they are not importing any manure they are running an integrated farm system:

Quote:

the leguminous cover crops were incorporated in to the soil as the source for nitrogen before corn or soybean planting.

Soybeans are a legume that make their own nitrogen.

Quote:

Jeff Moyer, farm manager at The Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania (Rodale Institute, 1999). He continues, "over time, organic practices encourage the soil to hold on to moisture more efficiently than conventionally managed soil."

That is a no brainer.

This article:
http://faculty.arec.umd.edu/jhanson/...g%20System.pdf
is the best you have found so far, but it is Voodoo science and fact. They did not use their actual out of pocket cost for Machinery or Labor. They admit that there is a size limitation on profitability. Using 27 acres and extrapolating the data to larger size operations? Gimme a break.

texican · #**252** 07/12/10, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverbackMP

I always get a laugh out of the "grass fed" mantra on the sustainability/permaculture type websites (of which I do believe in the concepts if they are scaleable).

99% of a beef cattle have always been mostly grass fed most of their lives; they go feedlots (of various sizes) for the last 60-80 days or so of their lives to get grained/finished.

What has drastically improved (IMHO) in the last 20 years or so is soil and grass management thanks to the likes of the "Stockman's Grass Farmer."

You need to stop too! Don't you know calves are birthed and spend their lives in feedlots!!! Right...

Ask any rancher and they'll tell you they're not raising cattle, their raising grass... without grass, you can't afford to raise cows. Raising cattle on 'bought' feed would be extremely expensive.
Like you said, probably 99% (unless your raising Japanese hand fed beef)are fed on grass, and spend the last month or so on feedlots, getting marbled. Why? Because that's what the public wants. If the market wanted dry shoe leather, that's what the market would get. You can have tender grass fed beef... however, you can feed tough rangy shoe leather beef in a feedlot for a few months, feeding it middlings grains a starving human wouldn't touch, and make it nice and tender.

However, no matter how much you say it, it's never going to stick... some folks think all the grain going to cattle would feed some starving African (regardless of the fact that food welfare to foreign countries exacerbates the problem).

Heritagefarm · #**253** 07/12/10, 03:47 PM

OK, everyone who has said huge farms are essential to feed the millions, read this:

I have calculated, and we have 7.4 acres for every person in the united states. After I take away the 650 mil that the gov owns, we have 5.5 acres per person. That is more than sufficient for every person to grow their own food. Then, though, we have to find out how much cities take up...

arabian knight · #**254** 07/12/10, 03:57 PM

You can "calculate" all you want, much of that land will not, I repeat will not, support any type of crops much less sustain a family living off it. Geesh much of the southwest is Desert. The Sonoran Desert is the largest in North America. Try going crops without the proper Irrigation which comes from the CO. river.
Many other are mountainous. How much land is covered by Forests??? Ya start Clear Cutting that will solve the food problem.
Nope you can not just take the population, divide the number with some Arbitrary number of acres, and come up with some factual number. No way, no how.

Heritagefarm · #**255** 07/12/10, 04:20 PM

Posted by oneokie:

From the Iowa state study:

and respectable crop yields are being
produced in ideal growing seasons.

From the Michigan State study:

analyzed published studies on yields from organic farming. They looked at 293 different

From the bioscience article:

The higher prices that organic foods command in the marketplace still make the net economic return per acre either equal to or higher than that of conventionally produced crops although cash crops cannot be grown as frequently over time on organic farms because of:

1. Cultural practices to supply nutrients and control pests

2. The fact that labor costs average about 15 percent higher in organic farming systems.

I could have a field day with this........

Well, maybe you should, because all I've seen you do is disagree.

It is not cleverly hidden, there is a subscribe button on the first Rodale link you posted in this thread.

Because that is human nature.

It doesn't have to be, nor is it. The idea that everything will fix itself is wrong, and unless we the people change our motives, the country is in for it. We don't DEMAND conventional food, we just buy it. No one DEMANDS GMO food, they just buy it, because most people don't even know what GMO is. No one DEMANDS stuff be made in China.
We Must Be The Change We Want To See. It does no good to say "I wish people would eat organic" and then buy a bag of doritos. Similarly, it does no good to say "I know that what I'm doing is bad for me, you and the planet, I know this pesticide is toxic, this fertilizer is killing fish in the Gulf and my soil is about to go bankrupt, but I'm going to keep doing this because I make money doing it."

This article:
http://faculty.arec.umd.edu/jhanson/...g%20System.pdf
is the best you have found so far, but it is Voodoo science and fact. They did not use their actual out of pocket cost for Machinery or Labor. They admit that there is a size limitation on profitability. Using 27 acres and extrapolating the data to larger size operations? Gimme a break.

Heritagefarm · #**256** 07/12/10, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

You can "calculate" all you want, much of that land will not, I repeat will not, support any type of crops much less sustain a family living off it. Geesh much of the southwest is Desert. The Sonoran Desert is the largest in North America. Try going crops without the proper Irrigation which comes from the CO. river.
Many other are mountainous. How much land is covered by Forests??? Ya start Clear Cutting that will solve the food problem.
Nope you can not just take the population, divide the number with some Arbitrary number of acres, and come up with some factual number. No way, no how.

Well, the fact is, we have millions of acres sitting idle that could very easily have small gardens put on them. We have no need for these huge unsustainable farms.

Lazy J · #**257** 07/12/10, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

We have no need for these huge unsustainable farms.

Well geez, that sure makes my life easier! I'll just stop crop farming our 350 acres, since I am using the conventional practices you hate so much (no-tillage, glyphosate, diesel powered tractors, etc.). My mother will miss the crop sales she depends on for part of her living expenses. I will try to break the news to her softly that her "huge" farm is a scourge on our society and must be broken up.

Heritagefarm · #**258** 07/12/10, 05:02 PM

I'm sorry I offended you. It was in no way aimed at you personally. I have been insulted quite a few times in this debate alone. Food is a very, very, delicate issue...

Heritagefarm · #**259** 07/12/10, 05:11 PM

Here is a corn bit...
http://greenanswers.com/q/148707/foo...ther-countries
"...For the year lunafish's data appears to come from (2003-2004), the US exported 48.81 metric tons of corn, so, after taking into account the 200,000 tons of corn that were imported ... US still had a net surplus of 48.71 million metric tons of corn that year."

It is known that the US produces far more food than it needs.

treasureacres · #**260** 07/12/10, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

Well, the fact is, we have millions of acres sitting idle that could very easily have small gardens put on them. We have no need for these huge unsustainable farms.

The FACT is that we will not change our habits until we are forced to. PERIOD. You need to look past the edge of your farm and realize that the WORLD depends on these big farmers to eat. Due to current world population this is the only system that will work. In my opinion, it would be cruel to let people around the world starve when we have the capability to feed them. We, as small producers, need to keep promoting eating local grown produce and meat the best we can and expose more and more people to it. But we are only one option for food, and right now we are the most expensive option so it is a harder sell. Cost is not the only factor though. Time. People do not want to take the time to prepare and home cook meal like the good old days. It is much easier to stop at a fast food joint or get frozen meals from the grocery store and throw them in the oven. Both of these food choices are made from low cost, mass produced, ingredients and many preservetives, but it is cheap and quick!