Creating Zoning Problem Solutions

This is one my (bigger) pet peeves while talking about the whole zoning and permiting issues.
And it involves to a great deal this:
"Unfortunately, about half of those who come to the country for it's charm, bring their suburbanite ideas with them."

I am quite surprised it took this number of replies to get to this hot button.

Now, my ideas aside, how do you other intellegent people propose that we could (or shall I say, should) deal with this aspect of the "Battle"???

Here in Southern Oregon, the vast majority of new property owners are from the great state Of Kalifornia.
And as you can probably surmise, many (IMO, More than half) come here to escape the sewer that they formally lived in (or is that under?), yet bring the seeds of the same failed system with them....? ---?

And cutting to the chase here... at first they are in the minority, so their poor choices get little traction.
However, as time goes on and as more and more of them flood in etc.
And another "Problem" is that many locals think that since we have a pretty good system in place... that it won't change (and therefore do little to nothing to stem the flow of bad ideas until it is too late) so they are shocked and dismayed when finally the "Outsiders" (Outsiders=Non Local) have actually gotten to the point of voting their like minded people into local Gov and get to ruining the old system.

An age old problem I am sure, but usually no amount of calm reasoning or explaining the end result of their grand ideas seems to filter through to their well meaning bad ideas.

They either don't believe, don't care, or actually want to change what works (here)...and the reason they found "Here" a better place to live in the first place.

Lets see, the system you left didn't work...so you left.
And yet you insist on implementing that same failed system here...?

Websters dictionary SAYS:
Definition of crazy: Doing the same thing, yet expecting a different outcome....(FAIL)

Very frustrating indeed.

What I'd like to say (but obviously can't) is along the lines of this:
You did not like it where you used to live, so you came here.
You came here because we have a better way of life/ system/ whatever...
Therefore... Why in the world would you try to make this place....like the place you left.... since you didn't like it there, and left as a result...???

And I hear this type of song sung at the town hall meetings quite frequently...yet it seems to fall on deaf ears as... you guessed it....too many "Outsiders" are on the council.
And I can hear some of you now saying well...just elect the bad seeds off and get some better thinkers voted in....
Good idea, why didn't I think of that.
Well, problem is this:
The people who most crave power, are almost universally the least qualified for it, yet the most driven to obtain it.

Just like bad cops.

The "Type" of people that would actually do the best job, usually are too smart to fall into that trap, and as a result you get....well, you can fill in the blank yourself, as you all know exactly what I am saying here.

Why is that this quote comes to mind here:
Well, other than that, how did you enjoy the play Mrs Lincoln?

I am of the mind set that a persons property belongs to them and they should be able to use it as they see fit as long as it is not a health and safety issue that DIRECTLY impacts their neighbors or their community. Sadly few others have my mindset.

Within your comments aree the solutions.
People invade your quiet little community for what it is and then destroy it. Locals stand by and let it happen. We are seeing how that happens within this thread.
The locals and the rest of us that just want to be left alone often REFUSE to allow a zoning ordinance to “tell me what I can do on my property”. Sadly, we often hang ourselves with our own rope.
Insight, folks, insight. Like the old phrase, “close the barn door after the horse got out”, we wait until it is too late.
We have the power to limit development or at least direct it with zoning.
It goes both ways, too. Folks that want to retire and grow their own food in a peaceful rural setting and then the farmer next door expands from 100 sows to 10,000. Now they want zoning protection. Too late. Then there is the small farmer that wants to be left alone or maybe buy more crop land when he can afford to, but a developer buys up the land and builds a trailer park, condos or McMansions. A side note here, they only can do it when the “good old boys” agree to sell the farm. Greed plays a part here, too.
With a bit of thought a community can limit land splits, ban multi-family homes, create agriculture only zones, etc. It can be done. But because most of the people in rural undeveloped area shun the protection zoning offers, it continues.
If those that believe they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their land, just because it is theirs, do not wake up, the “invaders” will rule the roost.
What directly affects a land owner isn’t so cut and dried. A gravel pit or junk yard across the road is easy to see the negative impact on your property value. You have to dig a bit deeper to see how that 100 unit Manufactured Home Community crushes a small community. In Michigan, and I suspect other places, trailer parks aren’t taxed on the value of the homes within, just the land itself. Many newlyweds occupy trailers in trailer parks and soon fill their lives and homes with offspring. The addition of a couple hundred students to your local school could be costly and require new schools. Since they aren’t paying for it, guess who is. Right, you are. Plus the blacktop roads, larger sewer lines, etc.

There are certainly a lot of issues raised here. When I started this thread, it was because of the Mateo's thread, where they are being crushed by some kind of rules which appear to be a combination of zoning and building and subdivision by-laws. What I was trying to say is that sometimes (well, specifically in my situation) this hodge-podge of rules is so difficult to sort out that, whatever a person (me in this instance) proposes, they are going to just say NO. In my situation, I wanted to have a real home. Now it wasn't pertinent so I didn't mention it, but I had been illegally "camping out" on my land playing musical chairs in a series of "pull-alongs" or camper trailers, so I already had the offiials backs up.
Fortunately I had previously gotten my health dept permits for well and septic for my dream octagonal house.
I had seven trailers on my land and all of a sudden, I had an eighth but this time I was applying for all the other permits! I was giving them an excedrin migraine headache. So they unloaded a dump truck of things on me where I did not comply!!!!! Hey, bureaucrats can be very creative sometimes. I called my new home a trailer, then a mobile home and finally discovered I had to call it a "manufactured home.". When I called it a trailer, instantly they HAD to have the title. Well, there was no title because the wheels had been removed, it had been tied down to code and the title turned in to dmv. So my task here, if I wanted this home which was like a palace compared to my prior flotilla of domiciles was I had to comply with impossible dictates so the bureaucrats could save face.
I was joking about forging paperwork and being a criminal because I am pig-headed and it all seemed superfluous and unnecessary to me. But egowise, it was necessary for the bureaucrats. And it worked! I got my very own home with running water and electricity and an Occupancy Permit!
My idea of the thread was for other persons like myself who successfully resolved such problems to step up with their stories of win-win success to encourage and cheer up the Mateos!
But I absolutely totally agree with some contributors to this thread about strangers abandoning the cesspools they made (well, that were made) of their former homes only to move to a new, better area and ruin it by recreating a reasonable facsimile of what they left, New York, Kalifornia, wherever.

As is often the case, there are regulations. As you have pointed out, there are ways to give the inspectors sort of what they want, at least enough to shut them up. To properly explain what your regulations are and how you got around them, would take pages and pages. I don't understand why when the wheels come off, the title goes away.

The part I think some folks are missing is that those regulations, meant to provide a degree of safety and security in your community, are weak. With little effort, you were able to bend them enough to get your way.

Regulations, health or zoning, that are so very weak, will not stand up to the developer's attorneys

When you come into a community and want to go against the established rules and regulation, to drag a non-titled trailer in (following a gypsy caravan of seven other travel trailers), it seems it must be a problem because their backs were in the air.

Conversely, those kinds of weak regulations will seem like a red carpet to a developer. We can see your actions a noble are a sort of “stick it to the man”, playing his game against him. But that leaves the door open for other folks to bend other rules and regulations.

Perhaps we need a thread about how small farmers, hobby farmers and homesteaders had their dreams dashed by developers. Perhaps someone could explain the steps that their community took to preserve the lifestyles of the people within it.

Zoning isn’t a devise of the rich developers to drive you from your own slice of heaven. It isn’t a way to drum up money in fees or arbitrarily tell you what you can and can’t do.

Anyone here have some stories to tell about what you did to preserve a community’s lifestyle? Help modify a zoning rule?

Can't speak to any other locality, but here, the Township pretty much has control over the ordinances and zoning issues. These officials are Township residents(my neighbors) who are elected officials(I voted for them), who meet and determine things by local, county, state and Federal laws. I find them to be hard-working, sincere people for the most part, with a real interest in having a good and safe community for all of us to live in, whether we're out in the swamps or fifty feet from the neighbor's bedroom and septic tank. When new issues come up, they have Public hearings--by law--and open meetings, where any resident can speak to that issue. And all business meetings are public--in accordance with open air laws--except personnel issues, which can be declared closed. Each official has public office hours, and any resident can come in and talk to that official on any matter. Most of the building construction codes follow state and federal codes, and our Township contracts with Associated Government Services, a professional contractor, so as to gain more professionalism than any one elected official--an amateur--could attain. Plumbing, septic, and electrical are county or state codes and have their own inspectors and permits.

Though it is not yet completed, the Township has an on-line website to inform any current or would-be resident of all those codes and such, and it also includes the names, office hours, and phone numbers of the officials, meeting dates and times, etc, etc.

I understand that many homesteaders hold the opinion that "I want to get my own piece of land and do whatever I want to with it, and to it, and on it." I have that belief myself, but I have come to realize that I have to have a good bit of realism if I want to be a good neighbor, and a good citizen of the community where I live. If I come into a community, hard-charging, with the intent of "doing what I please", it will quickly backfire on me, a newcomer--who didn't attend the meetings or hearings, didn't vote for my officials, didn't offer my comments respectfully when there were times given over to that....... If I go into the Township offices five minutes before closing and make demands, I can expect to be asked, "Who the hell do you think you are, anyway?" , or at best, get slightly polite, but bureaucratic stonewalling.

Only place where I am completely free is out on the lake on Monday evening(after the Chicago tourists have gone home,) There I can fish, fart, spit, and smoke cigars without anyone to tell me I can't do that. Uh-oh, here comes the game warden.......

geo

we have always been pretty fortuante, we have always done all of our building without inspectors and without permits until we put in our doublewide after our housefire..that we had to have a permit for otherwise they wouldn't move it in..but since we have managed to do all the rest of our work without permits (or fines).

Guess we are fortunate as most people wouldn't have gotten away with it.

but we are going on 40 years on this property with our only permits being the ones when we had our fire and put in the doublewide..so i have built 4 sheds and a garage and totally remodeled the first house and put in gazebos and decks and others, all without permits..

at this point in time with property values dropping like rocks in Michigan..they would prefer that you keep your property up, so they aren't running around and fussing with people who are doing attractive and useful things to their property.

There is no need to get a tit in the wringer over things that you cannot control (regarding zoning). The questions then become "What is in my control?, "What is not in my control?", "What do I NEED to do?" and "What things would I like to do that are optional?".

If you don't mind listening to a lot of MP3s you might go to George Gordons web site ( www.georgegordon.com ) and look at his talk show archives dealing with the subject of zoning.

I understand the reasoning for zoning but I would find the constraints some of you live with impossible and I purposely chose to live where I am because of that. We were fortunate in that we could relocate anywhere in the world when we chose this place which isnt always possible but we picked where we are at precisely because of the fact there was no zoning (well, the county is entirely zoned agricultural and is unincorporated so you can pretty much do anything you want).

The down side is there is no building code, no real county services (havent seen a Sherrif or Deputy ever) and our property values reflect that. It works for us because this is our retirement home. I have no neighbors I can see or hear and I am 22 miles from the nearest incorporated town.

If you can, move to where you can have the freedoms your desire but just be prepared for the lack of services and the fact that you could have a junk yard or dog kennel on the adjoining property and buy enough property so that you wont be bothered if a knuckleheaded neighbor builds right on the property line. One other thing, if you move to a place like this dont try to change it to your ideal, know what you are getting into and be happy with that. I like my county just the way it is and it basically stopped in time back around 1940 (literally); when I paid my county personal property taxes this year (all $19.72 worth) they logged it in a ledger with a pen and gave me a carbon paper copy of the receipt...and they were friendly doing it.

The rest of you that like zoning can stay where your at and remain conforted in the fact that big brother is looking out for you. Navotifarm, come on down to the Ozarks, sounds like you would fit in well.

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www.salmonslayer-simplelife.blogspot.com

We are no longer permitted to put up even the tiniest of fences without a $350 variance. And don't even ask to build a shed, it won't happen. You can't even get a variance to make an illegal shed legal. Our zoning codes are written so as to be purposefully confusing. And the whole interpretation is left to one man who holds grudges. Catch him in a lie or misrepresentation and he will be on you like white on rice.

As soon as we can we will be moving to someplace outside nazi germany, but capital is required and a better housing market is a necessity. Kind of short to long range plan. In the meanwhile we will be working to make our dreams happen.

Sounds like Heaven Salmon. We were almost that way before Hurricane Rita. Ahhh, the good ole days... Now, we are just more creative!

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Thomas Jefferson had a very distinct fear of the uneducated masses. Gee wasn't he a smart guy.

I genuinely appreciate the comments made here on this thread. In my "real life," I feel like God's Lonely Woman because I simply have nobody I can discuss these issues with. Here, there are people miles away from me who agree with me or who make points which cause me to reconsider my position in certain aspects.
Here's a couple of points:
First the mobile home title. I frankly do not understand the differences between a mobile home and a manufactured home but I have been working in the same free lance job for over 20 years and only make $13,000 a year. I'm a widow whose husband died, leaving me no better off as a widow than I was as a wife financially. In my income bracket I have been doomed to live in mobile homes or rented apartments most of my adult life. In my earlier career, I was a court reporter "on the Hill," in Washington, DC. I covered (recorded and prepared transcripts of) the Ralph Nader hearings about Romex, aluminum wiring and the dangers of mobile homes. Ghastly testimony and proof of the fire hazards. "You have three minutes to get out and seven minutes for the mobile home and all contents to be totally consumed by fire." Naturally I don't want to be barbecued in my own bed. I am grateful for the changes related to the dangerous wiring. I can understand the date restrictions. And wonder why a whole entire livable home has to be condemned because of the wiring? Somebody now homeless could live in that home if the meltable fire hazard wires were removed and replaced by safe wiring. I am sorta joking about my dumpster diving recycling of a home but if on my submarginal income I can have a home that I'm as happy in - in my little boll weevil way perhaps - as some slave on a golden chair who works 80 hours a week at a desk job to pay for his million dollar mansion wait I'm losing my thread of thought here but you get the picture, right?

Ooops that chain of thought was about the title question Haypoint asked. Okay, according to the dim understanding of my little pea brain, a mobile home is on wheels. If it is on wheels and designed to be traveling on the highways, it has to have a department of motor vehicle "title," just like a travel trailer. It is then presumed removable and taxed (I only know about Virginia) as personal property.
If the wheels and axle and tow thingy are removed, then I can certainly follow the logic that it is no longer roadworthy. Then I think it is equivalent to a manufactured home which duzznt have wheels axle etc. Once it is no longer mobile and roadworthy, the title is turned into the dmv. Then they expunge their records. This is a one-way transaction. You can't retrofit wheels and axle and tongue (is that the name?)
So the building person was looking for a title that had been destroyed. Now I learned the hard way to call it a manufactured home instead of a mobile home or trailer! Careless semantics on my part like saying Canadian Goose instead of Canada Goose! Our language is confusing because of the word "title" used by dmv and real estate also being a single word with different meanings. Anyway, Haypoint, does that answer your question about title being turned in?

I must admit to being flabbergasted. First, I assumed you were male, based on your boasting about cheating the system on the paperwork (and installation) for your home. Silly me, making the assumption that you were beating your hairy chest in triumph.

Second, you claim to have sat through and been part of the documentation process for Ralph Nader's testimony of mobile homes. So, you *know* they are death traps waiting to happen. Maybe the laws on wiring have changed, but they are still shoddily built of highly combustible materials. You *know* that they instantly become rubble in a tornado. (Do you have tornadoes in your part of the country?) I'm having trouble fitting that experience of yours with your discussion of your current situation.

I'm going to address some other stuff on your other thread. :baby04:

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Apparently you and others on this thread just dont get that everybody cant afford a McMansion and meet your grandiose living standards. I have very low opinion of mobile homes from the old days, they indeed are the tar paper shack of the current era and a way of extracting money from the lower classes under the illusion that it is a real home with actual value.

BUT THE CRAPPIEST FIRE DANGER OF A SHELTER BEATS NO SHELTER!!!! You are basically saying anybody that cant afford your lifestyle isnt deserving of shelter and should just crawl under a bridge and die... All to protect your fantasy "property values". Some of us could care less about property values, its a home to spend the rest of our life in, not a developement racket to trade for lots of little green pieces of paper.

When people stop trying to make everything into a money making investment, the better off we will be.

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"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" -Dorothy

"Well, then ignore what I have to say and go with what works for you." -Eliot Coleman

Right on HermitJohn, there sure is a surprising amount of hostility towards this poster. I'm a scofflaw too and just drove 50 miles round trip to town and probably broke the law 5 or 6 times....later on I am going to break a few more laws no doubt. The poster is looking for some comaraderie and voicing frustration and she is 77 years old looking to fulfill her dream. I say go for it all the way, by the time they beat you down you will be six feet under anyway so to heck with them.

We were fortunate to get a place with a trailer, mobile home, manufactured home...whatever, for the MIL and she was about in the same boat as the OP. She had her own land and homesteaded in Wash State at one time until the high cost and over regulation drove her out and she would have been up a creek. The trailers (I will always call them that) do have poor wiring (her place is a 1989 14x79 Champion) but I am in the process of going in and rewiring the thing (had the cheap push connector switches and plugs), I have installed several new vinyl clad thermopane windows, rebuilt the front deck, installed new toilets etc. and you know what? Its a nice place to live for her and as John says, it beats living in a shack or having neighbors to your left, right, on top and on the bottom of you.

Maybe it would be better she went on government assistance and moved into government low income housing...thats the old homesteading spirit.

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www.salmonslayer-simplelife.blogspot.com

As folks have noticed, zoning and building codes are not a "one size fits all" sort of thing. We do need some zoning laws and building codes to offset sheer chaos, however, sometimes they don't fit everyone's property.

As one poster mentioned, you can get approved paperwork for the exact same construction if you call it the right thing, i.e. a "wet bar" instead of a "kitchen". Although in our building district, they are aware of that fib and scrutinize it a bit closer than usual but they do frequently allow it anyway.

Another poster mentioned that most of these zoning codes are very local in origin and being part of the process to put them in place is the best method of getting some you can live with.

My personal gripe about zoning codes is they generally make wide swathes of one type of code - such as huge areas of only residential or huge areas of agricultural only. IMHO what we need are mixed use areas so folks can live near where they work. Residential mixed in with light commercial, mixed business use, some agricultural around the edges mixed in with zoning which would allow agricultural processing and selling of ag products. Right now most zoning codes enforce a car centered society. If small villages were allowed by most zoning codes we'd have a chance of building sustainable walkable communities.

I would also like to see a category of "owner responsible" sort of code. Build what you like, but only you can live in it sorts of things. Unfortunately, that wouldn't work because of minor children not being adequately protected by overly creative construction not working as intended.

Thanks, Hermit John, Salmon Slayer and Hotcatz!!!!!!
Hey, I said I always wanted an octagonal home! I don't need to be jumped on about how dangerous trailers are! I think everybody who lives in one knows how dangerous trailers (I call them that, too) are! We just kinda let it slide away from the fronts of our minds.
Lord, I not only did Ralph Nader's mobile home hearings, I did the flammable clothing hearings and there were dozens of testimonials of little kiddies (and pregnant mothers with babies clinging around their necks) who got burned up like a torch because of flammable flannel nighties. Lots of the testifiers brought along clothing to demonstrate fire with and I have asthma! Also, I've been in mobile home parks where suddenly a home burst into flames so I observed how fast the fires flashed not just from the wiring but also from some poor turkey who fell asleep on a (flammable) couch while smoking. I've seen homes in my area with the tops peeled back like a sardine can from a freak wind.
But darn it, my little trailer home (apart from being a tinder keg) is really nice. it is just the right size for me, a bedroom at one end and an office at the other. The little old lady who lived in it before me was happy, too. When I played musical chairs with all the trailers, my favorite was my Airstream. I adore it! In the little trailers, I can see the stars, and the bears when they come tottering up to the bird feeders, and the deer and the eeek snakes .... there is just a thin skin between me and my woods. Maybe I'm not just a scofflaw. maybe I am nuts, too? But even if I am a throw-back, there are others on here who would recognize the feelings I get when I look out a tiny little porthole window and there goes a wild turkey strutting by. Even if I had a house as big as Bill Gates, what good would it do somebody like me? Something in me needs to be outside or at least sorta outside! So I am all for an "owner responsible" sort of code. Makes sense to me - cost/benefit. What could be more sensible???

OK, I'll play devil's advocate. Now that I've figured out that we are brainstorming ways to make a dream come true, I can play!

Owner responsible code. It's much like the motorcycle helmet law. If you get injured, you wind up in the health care system, and if you don't have insurance, you may wind up on welfare, in a nursing home, as a vegetable, for 40 years on our ticket.

Let's say I'm the next person buying your property with its non-code home. What happens to my investment when I do an addition, the inspector comes, and he says, "Sorry, this house isn't up to code, and you have to spend $83,000 to upgrade the wiring, shore up the foundation, and replace the roof."

Who is responsible then?

Our lives are too entwined to believe that what you do has no effect on others.

Just my dos pesos.

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Alice, your post is a great example of Nanny-State-Mentality. I am glad to see you are playing Devils Advocate! I would LOVE for the powers that be to allow some sort of opt out clause on much of this stuff. Example: You want to build a house w/o codes, permits, etc. THen You can not sell it. Simple, Easy. You want to drive w/o a seat belt. THen if you get in an accident you are responsible for your actions and the government is not required to give aid. Simple, Easy. You want to.... Then, there should be a SIMPLE, Easy fix.

And to the people who worry that something the parent does may harm the child, Shouldn't it be enough that the parent is RESPONSIBLE. Don't you think if the child gets hurt the parent will be devestated. But, it should still be the PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY. Not big brother's responsibility. THis world is going insane. I fear at the rate we are going, it will not be long until your child is born, given over to the state to be raised to adulthood because you are not a child expert and cannot give the level of care needed to raise a child.

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Thomas Jefferson had a very distinct fear of the uneducated masses. Gee wasn't he a smart guy.