Ohio's governor and HSUS

billooo2 · #**101** 07/06/10, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

No they aren't, we pretty much dumped everything that made us a republic in the first place. Tell you what we will take away your right to vote unless you are a white land holder, you can't vote for your Senators anymore, your state legislature gets to appoint them and the electoral college gets to pick the President again. Heck we will even legalise slavery again if you like. Then we will really be a Republic once more.

Huh????
What does white landowner and slavery have to do with that???
As far as know, the electoral college is still in place.

My complaint with what is happening in Ohio is 1. This Board is an unelected dictatorship. 2. Giving HSUS (whether their ideas are good or bad) an overseer role has no place in a representative republic!!

Patt · #**102** 07/06/10, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billooo2

Huh????
What does white landowner and slavery have to do with that???
As far as know, the electoral college is still in place.

My complaint with what is happening in Ohio is 1. This Board is an unelected dictatorship. 2. Giving HSUS (whether their ideas are good or bad) an overseer role has no place in a representative republic!!

Why do you think they went for a Republic rather than a democracy? Crack open those dusty American history books and see: because they were all white male slave and/or land owners and they wanted to continue their way of life.

Patt · #**103** 07/06/10, 02:16 PM

Oh and as far as that goes according to a Republic what Ohio did was exactly correct because you the poor and ignorant have no business whatsoever making decisions for yourself.

billooo2 · #**104** 07/06/10, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Why do you think they went for a Republic rather than a democracy? Crack open those dusty American history books and see: because they were all white male slave and/or land owners and they wanted to continue their way of life.

Did you find that in the Federalist Papers?

Farmerga · #**105** 07/06/10, 02:39 PM

"Why do you think they went for a Republic rather than a democracy?"

To protect the minority. It would be dangerous to make it so things change at the whim of public opinion. Mob mentality would rule and unpopular minorities would soon see their rights trampled by the herd like majority.

http://www.dostersheritagefarm.com

Patt · #**106** 07/06/10, 02:46 PM

Oh now that is funny! Because they were all about protecting the oppressed minorites right?

“All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and wellborn, the other the mass of the people…The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct, permanent share in the government. They will check the unsteadiness of the second, and as they cannot receive any advantage by a change, they therefore will ever maintain good government.”
— Alexander Hamilton

The masses were too stupid and useless to be allowed to have too much influence in government was the real view.

Lazy J · #**107** 07/06/10, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilandra

to address the first segment in bold: Farmers who are profitable treat their animals better than most city folk treat their children. Confined animals require constant supervision - the ALWAYS have fresh food and water and a clean place to stand and lay down. If their needs are comprimised so is the quality of the product they are producing. Can you say that for city kids? They are force fed junk food and tv shows while being supervised by less than attentive baby sitters or parents - how can I say that? hmmm look at the education system.
There are good and bad people in all walks of life, and if you lump all livestock producers in with the bad, you best be loving your vegetables and synthetic vitamin pills to be able to sleep at night.

I tire of the "Large Farmers are Abusers" line of thought coupled with the "Small Farmers are God like" sense. Especially from those that pretend to be "supporter of farmers".

ChristyACB · #**108** 07/06/10, 03:10 PM

I think people can thank the Conklin Dairy for this loss...pretty much sums it up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gene-b..._b_594020.html

When the whole world gets to view, over and over, video of this kind of horrific abuse with people enjoying the torture on a farm that is supposedly "in full compliance" then there is something wrong with either the requirements or the monitoring.

That's just my view.

arabian knight · #**109** 07/06/10, 03:13 PM

You never want "Mob Rule" in the USA no way now how. And that is what a true democracy gets you.

Farmerga · #**110** 07/06/10, 03:16 PM

"Oh now that is funny! Because they were all about protecting the oppressed minorites right?"

Some were, some were not. I was not speaking to "oppressed" minorites in the current sense. I was speaking of ideas. The majority should not be able to silence the minority. To use the context of this question. Why should we rely on people, who have no idea how a farm really works, to create policy for said farms? Public opinion is not the way make policy for an industry that few really understand. This government was set up to move very slowly, with good reason. It is to let cooler heads prevail. The reason behind a representitive Republic is to keep the majority from taking rights from the minority. Does that mean that it is a perfect system? Absolutly not, but, it is more perfect than most.

Pony · #**111** 07/06/10, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Technically speaking we are now a Democratic republic. I don't think you really want a Republic unless you feel you really shouldn't have the right to vote.

If we are a democratic rather than a Constitutional Republic, then if I want, I can get a bunch of people to agree that I can have everything you own, and I will get it.

Because THAT is how a democracy works.

As long as we still have the Constitution, and as long as there are those of us who are willing to fight to defend that Constitution (rather than letting it go by default, as you seem to have done), then this is still a Constitutional Republic.

No thanks to all those who vote for the Nanny State and go along with the likes of the ones who ignore the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

As for "white landholders" only being allowed to vote, I think it grossly unfair that those who do not own land or have a serious stake in the game should get to vote at all.

I'm from Chicago, where all it takes to get out the votes is a couple of drinks. I have some pretty hardline ideas on who should have the right to vote.

IMO, if you don't play the game, then you don't get to make the rules. "Taxation without representation" takes on a whole new meaning when those who have nothing in their pockets want to remove what's left in mine.

Ernie · #**112** 07/06/10, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Why do you think they went for a Republic rather than a democracy? Crack open those dusty American history books and see: because they were all white male slave and/or land owners and they wanted to continue their way of life.

What you are referring to is the newest trend in law (about 20-30 years old) called "positivist law". The state (or the voters) grants you your rights and can take them away. Totalitarian regimes have always been big fans of that one as opposed to what our founding fathers wanted which was "natural law".

The state of Ohio and this new law of theirs (did it pass or not?) would be a good example of democratic tyranny. The corporations wanted a specific law so they swayed the government to write it for them and then used their propaganda to convince the ignorant to vote for it. Those ignorant of farming and the way this law would impact small farmers fell right in line and now there is (or will be) a new tyrannical law on the books.

The Constitution is a piece of "natural law" that protects us from the tyranny of the majority. It provides a fixed set of rights that are unchanging based upon a moral code that has stood for over two millenium. Societies willing to follow natural law always seem to last longer than those who don't.

Positivist law versus natural law, Hobbes or Locke. Educate yourself and then figure out which system you would like to live under.

billooo2 · #**113** 07/06/10, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Oh now that is funny! Because they were all about protecting the oppressed minorites right?

“All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and wellborn, the other the mass of the people…The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct, permanent share in the government. They will check the unsteadiness of the second, and as they cannot receive any advantage by a change, they therefore will ever maintain good government.”
— Alexander Hamilton

The masses were too stupid and useless to be allowed to have too much influence in government was the real view.

I would appreciate it if you could cite where this came from in the federalist papers.

billooo2 · #**114** 07/06/10, 04:00 PM

Is this an appropriate contribution to this discussion?

"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
Benjamin Franklin

billooo2 · #**115** 07/06/10, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

I think people can thank the Conklin Dairy for this loss...pretty much sums it up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gene-b..._b_594020.html

When the whole world gets to view, over and over, video of this kind of horrific abuse with people enjoying the torture on a farm that is supposedly "in full compliance" then there is something wrong with either the requirements or the monitoring.

That's just my view.

This could be another thread.......isn't it interesting that this was done when Mr. Conlklin was out of town........and why would someone film something like that without protesting or making an effort to stop the abuse??
Something does not smell right about this.....

billooo2 · #**116** 07/06/10, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Oh and as far as that goes according to a Republic what Ohio did was exactly correct because you the poor and ignorant have no business whatsoever making decisions for yourself.

HUH??
Deception was used to get people to support something. Now it is going to be the exact opposite of what the people voted for?

Who are the 'poor and ignorant' that you are referring to???

||Downhome|| · #**117** 07/06/10, 04:12 PM

never was a big fan of Hamilton, Jeffersons Ideas where much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Oh now that is funny! Because they were all about protecting the oppressed minorites right?

“All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and wellborn, the other the mass of the people…The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct, permanent share in the government. They will check the unsteadiness of the second, and as they cannot receive any advantage by a change, they therefore will ever maintain good government.”
— Alexander Hamilton

The masses were too stupid and useless to be allowed to have too much influence in government was the real view.

just these few quotes by Jefferson make more sense then anything Hamilton spewed

A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference.
Thomas Jefferson

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Thomas Jefferson

Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition.
Thomas Jefferson

Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it.
Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
Thomas Jefferson

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
Thomas Jefferson

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
Thomas Jefferson

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

In defense of our persons and properties under actual violation, we took up arms. When that violence shall be removed, when hostilities shall cease on the part of the aggressors, hostilities shall cease on our part also.
Thomas Jefferson

It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.
Thomas Jefferson

It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong.
Thomas Jefferson

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson

It takes time to persuade men to do even what is for their own good.
Thomas Jefferson

Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people.
Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

jlrbhjmnc · #**118** 07/06/10, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

No they aren't, we pretty much dumped everything that made us a republic in the first place. Tell you what we will take away your right to vote unless you are a white land holder, you can't vote for your Senators anymore, your state legislature gets to appoint them and the electoral college gets to pick the President again. Heck we will even legalise slavery again if you like. Then we will really be a Republic once more.

Oh, dear. Patt! - the Electoral College DOES elect the President (there is a movement to change this, and why not, we're ignoring most of the Constitution anyway). And frankly I think the time has come that, if you don't pay taxes or own real estate (in which case you pay taxes...), then you don't vote. If our state legislatures chose our Senators, then I think the voters would be more careful of the people they chose to be state legislators. A true democracy always destroys itself. We have reached the point that too many voters pay no taxes, so they vote themselves money. If we can get back to the Constitution and being a true Constitutional Republic as we were founded, we have a chance. Otherwise, we're living in the twilight of our nation's life and the end is going to be awful.

Patt · #**119** 07/06/10, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billooo2

I would appreciate it if you could cite where this came from in the federalist papers.

Here is the whole quote and the date, couldn't tell you anymore than that:

All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and well-born, the other the mass of the people. The voice of the people has been said to be the voice of God; and however generally this maxim has been quoted and believed, it is not true in fact. The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct permanent share in the government. Can a democratic assembly who annually revolve in the mass of the people be supposed steadily to pursue the public good? Nothing but a permanent body can check the imprudence of democracy. ~Alexander Hamilton, 1786

Patt · #**120** 07/06/10, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlrbhjmnc

Oh, dear. Patt! - the Electoral College DOES elect the President (there is a movement to change this, and why not, we're ignoring most of the Constitution anyway). And frankly I think the time has come that, if you don't pay taxes or own real estate (in which case you pay taxes...), then you don't vote. If our state legislatures chose our Senators, then I think the voters would be more careful of the people they chose to be state legislators. A true democracy always destroys itself. We have reached the point that too many voters pay no taxes, so they vote themselves money. If we can get back to the Constitution and being a true Constitutional Republic as we were founded, we have a chance. Otherwise, we're living in the twilight of our nation's life and the end is going to be awful.

We still have an electoral college, I wasn't saying that we do not. But it functions a bit differently now than it did then, they aren't really "picking" the President anymore and as you said there has long been a cry from both sides to have it abolished depending on whether or not their choice would have won if it had been by popular vote.
http://www.uselectionatlas.org/INFOR...ge_history.php

Just so you know I am not saying I am for or against any type of government I am just stating what we have. Personally I think we have wrecked the ship beyond repair and it will take a complete meltdown and build back from the ground up to restore this country to any sort of functionality. So we are faced with a choice: do we start the revolution or do we deal with what we have right now and accept it ain't gonna change anytime soon? Personally I am just dealing with reality.