Ohio's governor and HSUS

lasergrl · #81 07/05/10, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

My problem with exotic animals especially the bigger ones is not so much the damage they can do (although that is what gets the general public riled up) it's the stories of the idiots who buy the cute little tiger cub or alligator or whatever and keep it in their house and then it gets too big and oh no what do we do with it now. Poor animal has never had any sort of a life and now it's a "problem" and it winds up dumped or shot. The lucky ones get collected and taken to responsible wildlife groups.

These stories are most often spread by peta and hsus to further the agenda. Isnt it funny they always find a stray gator right before a bill is introduced to ban them? There will alway always be idiots collecting any species. This is overwhelmingly the minority by far. Sure lots of folks get things on a whim but they then educate themselves and do whats right for the animal. Tim Harrison will have you believe all sorts of fallacies. HSUS likes to give huge statistic, for how many thousands and thousands are kept in private hands. I say a few stories of idiots being idiots, is not much of a problem as whole. Its going to happen if they are legal or illegal. The only difference is the people doing it right, will be outlawed. Idiots will still keep them illegally.

Patt · #82 07/05/10, 07:35 PM

Well since we have lived here in AR there have been at least 2 incidents, one was a dumped female tiger that fortunately managed to make her way back home and was rescued by a big cat sanctuary and the other one was a couple of big cats that had poor fencing and escaped and I can't remember if they rounded up all of them but at least one was shot. Those were just in the local news not some big story. So that sort of thing does happen.

I don't think the tiger's owner had any permit and the other guy had had lots of neighbor complaints because he wasn't compliant with codes and that wasn't the first escape.

Lyra · #83 07/05/10, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyra

It seems as though the only people who are worried about the new regulations are the ones that don't follow them in the first place. In my line of work, I have discovered that these types of individuals are always the worst offenders.

I stand firmly behind this previous statement. As I thought they would, the people who have commented on my statement don't seem to care what abuses are occurring in their own state or about the welfare of others. The posters would rather blame the government or HSUS or PETA for cramping their way of doing things and holding them to higher standards.

Lyra · #84 07/05/10, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

My problem with exotic animals especially the bigger ones is not so much the damage they can do (although that is what gets the general public riled up) it's the stories of the idiots who buy the cute little tiger cub or alligator or whatever and keep it in their house and then it gets too big and oh no what do we do with it now. Poor animal has never had any sort of a life and now it's a "problem" and it winds up dumped or shot. The lucky ones get collected and taken to responsible wildlife groups.

Or they are let loose and become an invasive animal. Look at the python problem in Florida.

QoTL · #85 07/05/10, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyra

I stand firmly behind this previous statement. As I thought they would, the people who have commented on my statement don't seem to care what abuses are occurring in their own state or about the welfare of others. The posters would rather blame the government or HSUS or PETA for cramping their way of doing things and holding them to higher standards.

Since I did respond to your statement, I'm assuming this was also addressed to me.

So here's my response. Of COURSE I care. Of course if there was REAL abuse happening I would say something. Jeez, I'm the one who walks his dog back, who leads his sheep back when he 'loses' them in my yard. He isn't abusing his animals. He is being a hypocrite.

When there is a real situation going on, I firmly believe we need to do what we can to help. But creating situations and problems where there are actually none is ridiculous.

Chickens aren't people aren't dogs aren't cats aren't goats... when misguided people decide that an animal needs to be treated this way or that way because it is what they would want if they were that animal (with their human sensibilities) that creates problems and.. dare I say it.. lies about what really IS best for the animal.

My chickens don't want freedom, they want to be able to do chickeny things and be safe. I used to free range them until a fox picked a bunch of them off and they turned into this unbelievably nervous flock. Now they are locked in a run and are much happier chickens for it. I let my goats loose in the yard tonight to graze while I was out there. They could have gone anywhere. After about 10 minutes, 1/2 of my little herd wanted in to their yard for a nap. Our rabbit, when given free run of the house, will go back to her own cage within minutes. Animals don't always want to be free- humans do.

And I'm not standing up for farrowing crates, keeping chickens crammed in tiny cages, or anything like that. I don't know enough about farrowing crates. I despise the sort of intense farming that goes on in egg 'factories'. But what I know is best for MY critters may not be what's best for yours. Maybe your chickens really do want to be free to get eaten. Maybe your bunny hates her cage, maybe your goats want out.

There is a wonderful youtube vid out from Mike Rowe (a brilliant and talented man). He gives a speech about castrating lambs for the Dirty jobs show.. how he talked to the humane society and others about the most humane methods. Then he got to the farm and the farmer used a knife and his teeth.. he didn't think it was humane so he tried the method he had been told.. and his lamb huddled in the corner while the other sheep ran around like nothing had happened. Mike was smart enough to see the idiocy of something being toted as 'more humane' by the people who weren't there and hadn't actually done it for themselves.

If you are beating your animals, not feeding them, not keeping them clean, shame on you and I hope you get caught. If you are trying to do what is best for your own animals, then you are on the right track, even if I disagree with your methods.

Kriket · #86 07/05/10, 08:27 PM

lot of out of staters weighing in on this issue.

i voted no in the fall. peta is worthless, i don't trust them and the issue was so confusing, but the humane society or some other body i trusted to know more about it than i apposed it.

i heard peta offered to rebuild big butter jesus if he was holding a sheep and 'go vegan' was included imo, that is very tacky and in poor taste just an example of why i don't trust peta. isn't that church related to the horse racr track?

sorry for the caps and typos, nak.

billooo2 · #87 07/05/10, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyra

I stand firmly behind this previous statement. As I thought they would, the people who have commented on my statement don't seem to care what abuses are occurring in their own state or about the welfare of others. The posters would rather blame the government or HSUS or PETA for cramping their way of doing things and holding them to higher standards.

I object to your blanket statement.
My objection (I thought that I was CLEAR).....it is a dictatorship set up within a representative republic........the citizens of Ohio were promised one thing, and they are getting the exact OPPOSITE!!!

The members of the committee have no representation from a small farm. This Board has NO ACCOUNTABILIY to the citzens of Ohio!!!

So, according to your "logic"......I abuse my animals????

lasergrl · #88 07/05/10, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Well since we have lived here in AR there have been at least 2 incidents, one was a dumped female tiger that fortunately managed to make her way back home and was rescued by a big cat sanctuary and the other one was a couple of big cats that had poor fencing and escaped and I can't remember if they rounded up all of them but at least one was shot. Those were just in the local news not some big story. So that sort of thing does happen.

I don't think the tiger's owner had any permit and the other guy had had lots of neighbor complaints because he wasn't compliant with codes and that wasn't the first escape.

So again the people that follow the law should pay for the law breakers??? This just reinforced the fact that the only ones being punished here are the ones actually following the law. Just take a look at California to see how bans dont work, lots of exotics found there all the time in substandard care.

And again there is no danger in Ohio of these invasives taking hold. Animals that have potential to inhabit the entire US are already banned at a federal level such as mongoose and raccoon dogs.

watcher · #89 07/05/10, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

Ethically means the pig or cow or chicken or sheep or goat or rabbit I eat got to live it's life as naturally and happily as possible. The eat what the are made to eat, they live in as much comfort as possible, they are treated like living breathing animals who have needs and feelings, not like little machines to be crammed in wire cages and force fed whatever crap is currently cheap and in vogue just so they can roll out an egg a day or a couple of gallons of milk or some piglets.

Yes I do pay more for my meat when I buy it. I buy from people I know, that I hang out with and whose farms I have visited.

Interesting turning it into a "choice" issue. I am not dictating that anyone eat less meat. They may have to rearrange their budgets and pay a little more but nobody will die of eating less meat. Heck they may even actually live longer and healthy lives!

Ah but what if someone else's ethics say no animal should be killed for food and say you must stop eating meat? Or another says the more pain an animal suffers at death the better the meat taste?

Ethics on something like is very slippery.

Patt · #90 07/06/10, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

Ah but what if someone else's ethics say no animal should be killed for food and say you must stop eating meat? Or another says the more pain an animal suffers at death the better the meat taste?

Ethics on something like is very slippery.

On the first one I would say if the majority of Americans ever goes vegetarian then they can vote that through. The second one doesn't work because you can't torture an animal just because you think it makes it taste better. That is unethical in everyone's minds.

watcher · #91 07/06/10, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patt

On the first one I would say if the majority of Americans ever goes vegetarian then they can vote that through. The second one doesn't work because you can't torture an animal just because you think it makes it taste better. That is unethical in everyone's minds.

So you are saying ethics are based on the majority's view? So it was ethical for the Germans treat the Jews the way they die in the 30s and 40s.

Why not? If the majority of the people agree with that couldn't they "vote that through"?

arabian knight · #92 07/06/10, 10:47 AM

We never want this country to be under a majority rule. Never.

dogrunner · #93 07/06/10, 11:04 AM

I voted no on issue 2 as well. I also had a hard time finding one single farmer who AGREED with me!! Those of you in Ohio here, I hope you remember who the number one cheerleader of the vote yes campaign was, the FARM BUREAU!! In Fairfield and Southeast Franklin County all I saw were vote yes boards in every farm field from Bremen to Canal Winchester. So I am now feeling no sympathy for them, even the ones who are now saying they never supported it. Right, I guess the 10x20 vote yes on 2 sign in your field wasn't really there huh??

Mike in Ohio · #94 07/06/10, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billooo2

I object to your blanket statement.
My objection (I thought that I was CLEAR).....it is a dictatorship set up within a representative republic........the citizens of Ohio were promised one thing, and they are getting the exact OPPOSITE!!!

The members of the committee have no representation from a small farm. This Board has NO ACCOUNTABILIY to the citzens of Ohio!!!

So, according to your "logic"......I abuse my animals????

I held my nose and reluctantly voted yes. Unfortunately ballot initiatives to change the Ohio Constitution appears to be the wave of the future. I'm mighty unhappy that smaller farmers aren't represented and I am really ----ed at the deal that was cut. As far as I'm concerned they cut and run.

Now I'm thinkine we need a ballot initiative to get rid of the board.

The real solution on issues like this is the power of the market place. If a person wants to eat food (whether livestock or produce) that is raised a certain way then vote with your pocketbook.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

Patt · #95 07/06/10, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

So you are saying ethics are based on the majority's view? So it was ethical for the Germans treat the Jews the way they die in the 30s and 40s.

Why not? If the majority of the people agree with that couldn't they "vote that through"?

Come on read my post again! If the majority wants to be vegetarian fine, nobody gets hurt. If they want to torture animals it's a no even if they have a majority because it is ethically wrong. Ethics are not based on majority rule, laws are. We have a ton of unethical laws because the majority wants them, doesn't make them right just makes them so.

Patt · #96 07/06/10, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

We never want this country to be under a majority rule. Never.

You would want to find a country that is not a Democracy then.

Farmerga · #97 07/06/10, 12:24 PM

"You would want to find a country that is not a Democracy then."

We live in a country that is not a Democracy. The United States is a Republic.

The main point is that ethics are subjective. Some think it is ethical to abort a human fetus, some say it is not. Some say it is ethical to keep 5 birds in a 2x2 cage, some say 3 some say 1 some say none. Some say it is ethical to eat meat, some say that it is not, and some say it is when certain criteria are met.

I agree with many that the way to change the way animals are treated is with you dollars, not with your government. Government is FORCE. It is no more suited to answering questions of ethics than a pig is suited to road construction.

http://www.dostersheritagefarm.com

Patt · #98 07/06/10, 12:54 PM

Technically speaking we are now a Democratic republic. I don't think you really want a Republic unless you feel you really shouldn't have the right to vote.

arabian knight · #99 07/06/10, 01:11 PM

It is the other way around the way things are a democratic Republic.
small d and Large R.

Patt · #**100** 07/06/10, 01:53 PM

No they aren't, we pretty much dumped everything that made us a republic in the first place. Tell you what we will take away your right to vote unless you are a white land holder, you can't vote for your Senators anymore, your state legislature gets to appoint them and the electoral college gets to pick the President again. Heck we will even legalise slavery again if you like. Then we will really be a Republic once more.