Organic Pesticides Not Always "Greener" Choice
 

Organic pesticides in this study both killed more beneficial insects than the conventional alternatives and had more negative environmental impact.

But....how could that be? Everybody KNOWS better... don't they?

http://www.farms.com/FarmsPages/ENew...x?NewsId=31779

I feel that the real advantage of "organic" pesticides is that there is less hazardous waste produced during their manufacturing. And of course, a real committed organic farmer would have healthy soil and therefore wouldn't have pest problems that required any kind of intensive application of any kind of pesticide. Lots of "organic" pesticides are broad spectrum and harm a wide variety of insects, but at least don't have the side effects during their manufacture of synthetics.

It would be interesting to see the actual study and the associated stats. This synopsis makes generalized statements like:

"Compared with the synthetic pesticides, the mineral oil-based and fungal products were less effective because they also killed ladybugs and flower bugs..."

Is the implication that the synthetics didn't kill ANY ladybugs and "flower" bugs, killed fewer than the organic? Was there a significant difference?

The only thing worse than a poorly done study is a poorly written synopsis, no matter which way it's slanted.
(I'm not taking sides here. I try to use less chemicals in my yard and garden but am not chemical free, organic or otherwise.)

Uhhhh, I think mineral oil is not considered as an organic substance, since it is synthesized from petroleum, but vegetable oil might be......... (In the US, that is,,,)

geo

IPM integrated pest management is important chemical or organic.

Nature gets along fine without pesticides. Sure there's "locust cycles" but even that serves a purpose, and there is a natural process to end it and/or predators. Holes in produce ain't gonna kill ya. Holey leaves will still grow berries. Monocultures are disease prone anyways. Pesticide, organic or not, is an unnatural intrusion and disruption of the system. If you take some time to set up a healthy, thriving natural system, good bugs will come, bad bugs will move on to your neighbors sickly garden where the plants are thinskinned and stressed.

If you see a "plague" in nature--such as the beetle infestations in trees out west--that is nature trying to get back in balance. The trees are too thick and unhealthy because of 100 years of fire supression and manipulation of replanting(although things are a lot better understood now). Nature is trying to push the reset button, send the bugs to kill unhealthy trees, a fire cleans them up and makes fast nutrients for the seeds waiting in the soil for sun. WE see it bad cuz we can't cut holey trees for lumber, or else we fight to preserve every tree in the tree population(oh Luna), regardless if there are resources naturally to support every single possible tree(hm, kinda parallels the human popluation debate huh, but then, a tree is sacred...).

Nature built a system where the weak and sick are fodder for the strong and vigorous. Deal. (ie, you can't screw with mother nature:D)

I totally agree with SueMc in that the article appears to be purposefully vague with generalized statements. Below is the link to the actual study of the six pesticides. From a quick skim of the article, there doesn't appear to be any clear winners or losers. All six have an environmental impact, all six kill aphids, all six kill aphid predators.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0011250

I also agree with Jenn, IPM makes sense. Pesticides cost money that comes straight out of the profit margin. Any farmer or gardener with a brain wants to produce a healthy product that is sustainable.

Tom

I don't us any kind, organic or otherwise in my garden, though I may use the idea of soap into squash vines for borers as I've found no other way to keep them away. I typically jsut use hand picking of bugs or let them battle it out naturally. If I try the soap injection that will be the first time I've used anything.

I have questioned some of the posts here advocating spraying a gallon or two of acid in the form of vinegar vs. spraying an ounce of herbicide.

One particular herbicide a few years ago was to be used at a per acre rate of 2 to 8 ounces depending upon the weed needing controlled. An acre is 43,560 square feet. A ¼ cup would contain two ounces.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to how much vinegar (acid) it would take to do the same job and which would harm the soil more?

Many don't understand how various herbicides work and simply label them poisons. I suppose in the purist sense of the word they are. Some block photosynthesis while others affect the protein in the plant to cause cell damage which causes plant death. So yes they are poisons regardless of whether they would harm humans and animals or not.

Expect this is the same news story or similar. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0622175510.htm

The study, which is available in the PLoS One, was a 2 year thing where they were researching the top organically acceptable pesticides vs the top synthetic pesticides on aphids for soy. They aren't actually saying that the synthetic ones are BETTER, but that 3 of the 4 synthetic pesticides were more selective and only killed aphids whereas the organic ones took out aphids AND their predator insects. AND they looked at the residue left behind and the amounts needed to get the effect.

The study found that the synthetic pesticides killed fewer of the predator insects and required fewer number of applications and left less er, STUFF on the plants/fields.

That said..they have given numerous interviews apparently, (one in the Globe and Mail) saying:
They also talk about how farmers must start using natural predators, and companion planting, as well as other pro-active types of planting instead of relying on pesticides...either synthetic or organic.

Yes some organic pesticides in my opinion should not be labeled organic and should not be used. Unfortunately you have 2 sorts of organic growers out there the ones who do so because they believe in it philosophically and then those who jumped on the bandwagon once they saw it was profitable and are really just conventional farmers trying to manipulate the organic system. Having the USDA take over organic labeling and rules was a disaster too.

Optimally anything used to kill bugs will be used as minimally as possible and studied throughly before use.

i have never liked using a pesticide , but this year when my apples had tent catipilars i had to spray or i was going to loose them , i have not had any problems with potato bugs , but i put some potatoes in a rented space about a half mile down the road , bugs were eating them to the ground some plants had a hundred colorodo potato beetels on one plant , we had tried diatomatios earth didn't hardly even slow them down, so i had to spray and then again in 2 weeks and probably will have to keep it up till 2 weeks before harvest

so you can take a crop loss and go broke on it or you can spray , cautios , targeted spraying is the best with lots of soil building before and after

some thing sare better to spray than others you just do your best

a huge portion of organic produce is comming from china they figured out they could do things as they had been doing them but with organi pesticides and then sell it at a higher price as organic , local from some one you tryst to have done thier best is far better in my mind that organic "organic" has become just another worthless title slapped on food.

are organic pesticides better for the enviroment , possably i am not a chemist they do seem to break down sooner and need to be appied more often to some extent.

Just don't use chemical pesticides, organic or otherwise. There are plenty of ways of dealing with things besides -cides. Often you have to think a little harder but it is worth it. For example, we use chickens, wasps and yellow flies to deal with insects. Between them they eat almost all of the pests. Bats, swallows and dragonflies are also worth their weight in gold for this.

I have read the threads but not links.
I am currently not using any pesticides (the actual definition of pesticides is anything that is used against pests including insects, fungus, bacteria, weeds, nematodes, slugs, rabbits, etc.).
In my former life I was a pesticide inspector. During that time I studied a lot regarding pesticides. What might be good against pests may not be so good for humans (also pests! to some critters). One material, Rotenone, that is considered organic has a lower LD 50 than some of the synthetic pesticides. The lower the LD, the higher the toxicity.
Making blanket statements about organic or synthetic pesticides can be a trap.

Actually, people drugs are pesticides, as they are aimed mostly at diseases which are pests to the human. They used to use streptomycin treating trees against a tree disease...but it has also been used as a human drug.
Clorox, which we use for bleaching and possibly to chlorinate water, is also a pesticide since it is used against pests (bacteria). Companies an not make any claim about any product killing, mitigating, repelling, etc. a pest without it being deemed a pesticide and therefore, must be tested and registered as a pesticide. That's why Skin-so-soft is only heralded as a mosquito repellent verbally, but not on the label...or at least the last time I looked.

Most people (self included) are not fully knowledgeable about pesticides or many other topics, but feel the need to spew information that they have learned second, third, fourth, etc. hand. Expressing some of that information as fact, when, in fact, it is opinion, is what leads to a lot of misinformation out there.

I personally think opinions are fine, if identified as such. I am against GMOs, not so much because I scientifically know they are bad (which I don't know one way or the other), but because I personally think people should have a choice, and without labeling to identify what is there, I don't have a real choice, except to buy "organic." So I am against GMOs based on my opinion, not based on scientific fact, as it has not been established beyond any doubt IN MY OPINION.

I agree! Between our guineas and all the beneficial bugs that live in our garden now that it has been 100% organic for 9 years now we rarely have bug problems. Only thing we haven't been able to conquer is squash bugs. We occasionally use DE or BT but that is it.

I prefer not using insecticides, and rotating crops and so forth to use little to none. With my particular crops I really never used any until the soybean aphids appeared. While I have _many_ Asian lady bugs that are supposed to combat the aphids, they never keep up. Seems I need to have my bean fields sprayed 2 out of 3 years.

That's unfortunate.

But, how does one combat 1000 tiny aphids on the underside of a 100 acres of soybeans? They can take away 1/2 the yield of the beans.

Before you shrug that off; study the potato famine in Ireland. Many, many people died. Back then it was _all_ homesteader-type, organic farming, and people were very in tune with their crops and environment.

Or the locust plagues in the upper mid-west. My mom remembered them, the clouds of bugs would come in, and strip a field bare of vegitation. It's nice of you to say one just needs to ride it out, because you've never lived through something like that.

Starvation and ecconomic devistation will really change a person's attitude on this! :) I hope you never have to live through the issues of old.

Again, I don't enjoy swashing on all the chemicals one possibly can. But neither, do I think your theory of 'Deal.' is a very good or wise or polite response to very real trageties people faced in the past, and could face again in the future.

Actually I found that quite a rude & uncaring comment.

--->Paul

Organic hasn't had as much time to refine yet. Reguardless they still haven't tainted ground water to leave wells a cancer causing soup that effectively never leaves the soil.

But hey, at the time 'spray once and never have to spray again' was a great sales pitch.

You have to be careful using a soap or vinegar as a pesticide, technically they are not labeled as such and that makes it illegal. So, if an organic grower uses either and the product is not labeled as a pesticide he is guilty of off label use. I don't totally agree with this, but that's the way it is.

Bob

Which Superfund site or sites are these? Surely tainted ground water with cancer causing soup is on the list for cleanup or area abandonment.

The potato famine is an EXCELLENT example of the perfect storm of politics, exploiting a people, and what happens when a population becomes solely dependent on a MONOCULTURED imported plant for their food. The Africans can grow plenty of food, but the warlords/next tribe over drive them off the land, prevent them from migrating in droughts and/or confiscate what they do grow to keep them starving and submissive.

It wasn't so simple as bad luck of blight. If the Irish had been able to farm their own land with varied crops which had been bred to be hardy in their climate without having to pay tribute to The Man, they would have had enough to eat.

Yes, I was commenting about the harsh reality of trying to buck nature in the modern way of farming--ie locusts suck. Nature always wins in the end--I don't see anything rude or uncaring about that. Better to face up to it. Sure it's a very difficult row to hoe to figure out how to get along, but we're going to have to do it or die.

I just read an artice about how tent caterpillars(and one could throw locusts into this idea too), actually help protect plants in a drought cycle by eating the green, and the plant goes dormant--a sort of "early winter". I watched the cycle of tent caterpillars growing up, they never ate anything to death(I won't rule out them killing unhealthy or iffy plants). It just disrupts OUR expectation of getting fruit from the plant that year.

We have to come up with another way of farming, we can't depend on petrochemical/oil(even if the pesticide is organic you still need oil to deliver it from somewhere) for much longer. We are in for HUGE "adjustment" when oil becomes expensive, then runs out--no fertilizer, no herb/pesticides, no mining/processing/delivery of minerals from across the seas. It will be an awful transition and I have no rose colored glasses for hoping it will go smoothly, and I dont' see anything rude or uncaring about trying to think about reality, and new ways to go on.

I've got fennel and hollyhocks, the aphids are attracted to them in HORDES, and leave the other veggies alone. Though I realize that isn't practical for you.

Hmm, I guess one has to take all this with a grain of nicotine;)

I have my own opinions like everyone else.....but I have and interesting predicament here. My squash and pumpkins plants have neither fruit nor health......apparently because there are no bees about in my area this year......apparently due (among other things) to pesticides. [see "the Fruitless Fall]

It really is not making much of a difference though, because the squash stem bores are killing my plants right and left, with total disregard for the DE and the marigolds in the vicinity.

I read a lot of "I don't use chemicals, my garden is organic." That demonstrates a huge lack of understanding. It's all chemical. It's all deadly. I don't use rotenone or Sevin but if I were forced to choose between the two, I wouldn't choose rotenone even though it's organic.

Since my family ancestry is almost all Irish I have studied Irish history in depth. The potato famine was caused by over population, too many people crowded onto very small acreages due to the economic strictures placed on them by British rule and due to the fact they had a monoculture because they survived on one main crop which was potatoes and only one variety of potato, there are plenty of potatoes that are not susceptible to that blight they just did not have a wide variety of types that they were growing. The grains that they grew were all exported to England who happily left the Irish to starve to death.

Simple fact is we are far more likely to suffer from that sort of famine in America due to the fact that most of our large commercial farms today almost all grow a single type of seed instead of having a wide variety of them. It was mentioned on another thread that 90% of American soybeans are one type of GMO, what would happen if a blight of some sort struck them? We would lose 90% of our crop that year which would spiral into other losses.

Mono-cultures are the problem and the loss of genetic diversity in our plants that makes them able to adapt to diseases and other problems. Those of us on small farms with a wide variety of food plants and animals would thrive.

No, everybody only wants to live in a world where there is no natural balance. Nature has created more chemicals than Man could ever dream of replicating. It's how she keeps one thing from becoming dominant and wiping out everything else. That system has worked from day one. My favorite is rotenone which has a very high nasty rating. It's organic as the day is 24 hours long but much more deadly than many of the synthetic pesticides. Mention Sevin and the organic purists all scream that it kills bees. Rotenone kills everything but it's a natural thing. If something can't build up a resistance to it, then it's natural for them to succumb to it. Remember where it comes from, the Amazon. That ecosystem has developed with it for eons and there's not a person on this board who can say it's a mistake of Nature. Looks good to me from here and I'm more than willing to use what she created for us.

Martin

I don't purchase any pesticides, organic or otherwise. Using Companion Planting is something I've chosen to do with my garden areas and it seems to have worked rather well (confuses the marauding bad bugs). The only pests I have issues with are birds & slugs (used copper tape and coffee for the slugs, and just put jars over young seedlings to deter the birds), except we did have a persistent deer issue (now resolved). Bambi is still alive and kicking; I placed some barriers where he may think it a good place to leap over... It worked!

Our orchard won't be producing much this year. All the trees bloomed and there was just one slight problem. NO BEES! There were no Masons about or Honey Bees (this past Winter took mine out). Honey Bees will fly in a 12 square mile area, yet I saw not one in our orchard. I went out and bought more Mason Bees and also got a Nuc from a fellow beekeeper. My hive is doing very well and everything that has bloomed since, needing pollination, for which Honey Bees are known, will produce. We have an incredible populace of Bumble Bees, Dragonflies, and other beneficial insects.

Our choices are made more easily due to the size of our garden areas. It means we have to physically work a bit harder, at times, but it is worth it to me.

I also noticed the lack of honey bees this year. Also noticed a lack of humming birds.
I was watering my garden the other day when I noticed a large bumble bee buzzing around. Almost hit him with the water. From what I have noticed this year that one bumble bee might just be about the only polinator I have.
Sure have been careful to look for him each time I water.

no lack of bees here.....my raspberries were swarming with honey bees, plenty of bumble bees and mason bees too. I had strawberries nearly the size of my fist this year...I'm guessing due to all the bees as well. Plus I have a ton of diffren smaller flies and things that are pollinators. I find watching all them is fascinating. I don't use any pesticides, organic or otherwise in my garden. Don't use brought in minerals or fertilzers either excapt for the occasional bit of llama or sheep manure from freecycle. I do occasionally burn some near by wood, and spread the ashes.

exactly, the Amazon ecosystem has evolved with it, NOT NORTH AMERICA(nor anywhere outside the Amazon). Kudzu, purple loosestrife, suckerwhazzisfish were all great ideas in the beginning too, applied for some "natural" solution to a problem.

Wyldthang I'm one of the weak and sick so I'm gonna go ahead and screw with Mother Nature (or be happy for the farmers who grow my or some of the food to do so) rahter than for a large portion of my species to die off.

But think of how bland our North American diet would be if our choice of vegetables were beans, corn, or squash.

Martin

Rotenone flies in the face of the real meaning of being organic.

so you're willing to apply a foreign toxin to please your palate for choice?:p

arsenic is natural too, grind up some peach pits for some cyanide...:teehee:

The thread topic is about organic pesticides, not opinions as to why they should or should not be certified.

Black Flag is another very effective organic pesticide which will kill everything and meets the criteria of being from a North American plant. Many garden gurus even proffer recipes for making it at home but I won't use it.

Martin

Pyrethrin is another very effective and approved organic pesticide. Like other similar compounds, it is derived from a plant. It's not native to this hemisphere but I haven't a clue as to why that should be of any importance in selecting it for use. I have a different reason for not using it.

Martin

actually we're talking about why use them in the first place re attempting to be "organic"), and on my part I'm just having a little fun messing with you. Just keep yer poison in your own back yard :D

We'll all have to learn soon enough how to grow stuff without crutches anyways.

Anything that you may ever concoct to control any pest is a poison to that pest. Claiming that it's safer just because you make it would be hypocritical. If a single bug dies from it, it's a toxin just like rotenone or pyrethrin or nicotine. Same as if you control them by planting certain companion plants which are toxic to any given insect as you'd be using a natural organic compound. That's Nature's way of keeping things in balance.

Martin

I don't know about Wyld Thang, but none of my Companion Plants are carnivorous or toxic. Most deter, not kill, bugs. That is to say, their smell and presence aren't an attractant. Some varieties are planted to be more attractive to certain pests, sacrificing them to benefit other plants. The way I use Companion Planting is to increase the flavor of my veggies, and simply deter pests. It works for me here where I live. Also, deer hate garlic, so that is planted in orchards here to deter them. I'd rather not risk that, so we have a tall fence around ours.

The only bug/pest killer around here is me, so I am "the toxin":flame: Okay, now I am kidding around:bouncy:

In the wild somebody is somebody else's lunch, or sex enabler, or seed disperser. Critters are smart enough to avoid plants that have developed toxins to repel them--the plant REPELS, it does not kill. THAT is the secret.

Nature does not kill by poison to keep things in balance. It either has predators, which also serves to stregthen the gene pool of the prey for survival, or the simple fact that if there is no lunch to eat you die(because there is not enough lunch to go around).

In my garden bugs don't "die" from certain plants I plant. When they do die they die being someone's (natural) lunch--for other bugs, birds, snakes, lizards, frogs. I've mentioned "collector plants" for aphids--the aphids are NOT killed, they munch happily away on THAT plant(which freakishly, is not harmed...)and leave the ones I want to eat alone.

SO yeah, using plants to REPEL/ATTRACT "bad" bugs(which, after all are lunch for "good" bugs and critters--it's all just our anthropomorphic self righteous moral INTERPRETATION of what it going on), is NOT the same thing as applying toxic poison to KILL(however "natural" it is).

And like I said, critters are smart enough to know what plants/critters are poisonous, and they avoid them. Unlike humans, who no longer have the innate knowledge/understanding of "poison" to know what is good or not for them.

I've read that Japanese beetles will eat larkspur and four o'clocks and die from doing so. I've never tried it myself but need to experiment!

This is off the wall but I was thinking about this thread today as I finished up a script for an antibiotic (aka pesticide). Talk about pesticides producing resistant strains of microbes!